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Turpitz
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:15 pm)

I was postulating as to the figures, It just seems common sense that the 'Death Books' should tell you who died and how many. I suppose that way of thinking would be too logical for the H-Industry.

But I know one thing, 4,000.000, 3,000.000, 1,500.000, or whatever the figures are at the moment; is a gross exaggeration, conducted by calculating liars, common sense tells that to any sane and rational person. The gang that peddle this sin are evil psychopaths, let that be known to all. The amount of lives they have destroyed, and the misery and scorn they have poured on innocents to keep this charade alive is fearful, and must strike fear into any decent being.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:22 pm)

Hannover wrote:That goes back to my questions which were not really answered:
Why wouldn't deaths of the 'unregistered' be logged like everyone else?

And what evidence is there that these unregistered were not sent to other camps?


It seems to me that both of these questions 'beg the question', Mr Hannover. An exterminationist can as easily ask us why the death of the 'unregistered' would be logged. After all they were not registered. Furthermore the second question asks of the exterminationists what we as Revisionists consistently state: we cannot prove a negative point.

This points to a bit of a gap that I see in Revisionist studies - that is, are there records of transit beyond Auschwitz?

My reading is admittedly limited, so please excuse this question if it's mundane.

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:01 am)

I ask those questions because the onus is upon the accuser to support their allegations. It is they who must provide evidence for their case, which they cannot.
Logic would indicate the unregistered were sent elsewhere as labor was in great demand, and no evidence has ever been presented to challenge that. Perhaps Alain can present some?

Nonetheless, may I suggest this thread:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=278

excerpt:

from: 'Mattogno about Piper: The Number of Victims of Auschwitz'

6. The Fate of the Missing Jews
It is hardly necessary to emphasize that neither F. Piper nor any other historian has ever furnished not even a trace of a proof for the gassing of the non-registered inmates, who are by and large probably identical with those unable to work. On the other hand it can be proven without any doubt, that two of the most exploited alleged gassings - the one of the Birkenau gypsy camp in Birkenau (2,897 inmates) as well as those of the inmates of the ghettos of Lodz (66,900 inmates) – were actually historiographic falsifications.11 Not a single one of the other alleged gassings can be backed up with documents.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:13 pm)

This may seem obvious, or maybe not. But what evidence is there that these unregistered even existed ? I mean they were unregistered, so no records exist of these phantoms, so how do you know about them?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:47 pm)

Some 'arrivals' were authentic, some were lies, as my reference demonstrates:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=278

There is just no evidence that the anyone, 'unregistered' or otherwise were gassed or 'exterminated'...period.

A good example is the Hungarian deportations to Auschwitz, covered at our site here:
http://sailor.yourforum.org/archive/1.html

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:34 pm)

Hannover wrote:I ask those questions because the onus is upon the accuser to support their allegations. It is they who must provide evidence for their case, which they cannot.
Logic would indicate the unregistered were sent elsewhere as labor was in great demand, and no evidence has ever been presented to challenge that. Perhaps Alain can present some?

You are missing my point.

I am not a believer in the idea that a million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. So the onus of proof, as you mention, is neither on you nor me. However if it is the standard Revisionist allegation (and it seems to be) that Jews sent to Auschwitz were later sent elsewhere, then someone on the Revisionist side has to prove that, or at least give something equivalent to what the exterminationists are providing.

To wit: the exterminations claim that a million Jews were killed at Auschwitz - roughly half from Hungary in the summer or fall of '44. To substantiate the Hungary allegation, they use train transport records.

If Jews were sent to Auschwitz and then elsewere, we should - on our side - have similar transport orders. Yes: logic would dictate that labour needs would be filled with these Jews. But the orders therefore must be around somewhere. We can't rest on 'logic' alone. It wouldn't fly in a court room.

So do we have them? That's a direct question, please note. If we do not, then we must begin to consider what alternate explanations are available. IMO, it's quite possible that the Budapest to Auschwitz records are bogus. But has any Revisionist shown this?

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:17 pm)

You have ingnored the links I posted, why?

You said:

"But the orders therefore must be around somewhere..."

Precisely, where are the extermination orders?

The fact that we know there were transports out and there are no records indicate the removal of these records, how convenient...one can only guess who would do such a thing.

You have no proof that the 'unregistered' were murdered, and that is what is logically required. The rest is idle chatter.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:36 pm)

However if it is the standard Revisionist allegation (and it seems to be) that Jews sent to Auschwitz were later sent elsewhere, then someone on the Revisionist side has to prove that, or at least give something equivalent to what the exterminationists are providing.



I do not agree with this argument. Everybody has had 60 years of this garbage rammed down their throats. I think the onus is on the believers to show me and everyone else where this collosal pit for 1,000.000 people is. If you cannot find it and make it available as evidence, then the H-Industry is finished. Forget all your waffling about endless figures and crappy dog-eared pieces of paper, that god knows who wrote. The simple fact of the matter is this, a mammoth pit the size needed for for what is suggested does not simply disappear without a trace. End of the argument.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:14 pm)

Turpitz wrote:
However if it is the standard Revisionist allegation (and it seems to be) that Jews sent to Auschwitz were later sent elsewhere, then someone on the Revisionist side has to prove that, or at least give something equivalent to what the exterminationists are providing.


I do not agree with this argument. Everybody has had 60 years of this garbage rammed down their throats. I think the onus is on the believers to show me and everyone else where this collosal pit for 1,000.000 people is. If you cannot find it and make it available as evidence, then the H-Industry is finished. Forget all your waffling about endless figures and crappy dog-eared pieces of paper, that god knows who wrote. The simple fact of the matter is this, a mammoth pit the size needed for for what is suggested does not simply disappear without a trace. End of the argument.


Actually it's not the end of the argument because the exterminationists have already alleged that the vast majority of Jews killed at Auschwitz were cremated. They have attempted to prove this and Revisionists like Mattogno and others have, I believe, successfully refuted them. But more counterarguments and counter-counterarguments are likely to surface.

Asking the Industry to simply cough up a pit filled with a million bodies is not only going to get us nowhere, but it is likely to be greeted with laughter - and not laughing with us but at us.

In the meantime, they have these alleged train schedules and we have nothing to answer it with besides an allegation that Jews were shipped elsewhere. I honestly believe that this is the case but it sure would be nice to have something proving it rather than the simple allegation, wouldn't it?

And don't forget that it is precisely because most of us has been spoon-fed this nonsense for 60 years that we have to be able to produce arguments that are not just plausible, but that are more plausible than those of our antagonists.

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:20 pm)

Train schedules mean nothing more than people were put on trains.
There is no evidence that they were murdered, period. You have none, they have none.
I can't think of anything more rational, more understandable, more accepted in alleged crime/murder investigations, and more feared for the True Believers, than the demand for physical evidence.

No physical evidence, no holocaust.

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:20 pm)

Hannover wrote:You have ingnored the links I posted, why?

You said:

"But the orders therefore must be around somewhere..."

Precisely, where are the extermination orders?

The fact that we know there were transports out and there are no records indicate the removal of these records, how convenient...one can only guess who would do such a thing.

You have no proof that the 'unregistered' were murdered, and that is what is logically required. The rest is idle chatter.

- Hannover


Mr Hannover, I would recommend that you take a deep breath and calm down. We are on the same side here.

As to your above post. I have the following to say:

- I do not believe the unregistered at Auschwitz were murdered. In fact, I believe that the death toll you gave elsewhere - a hundred thousand - is probably correct.

- I did not 'ignore' the links you gave. I read them and did not find what I was looking for.

- I was not asking for 'extermination orders'. I was asking for the orders that sent Jews from Auschwitz to labor camps elsewhere.

- You are only complicating the matter by now alleging that the train records have been conveniently 'removed'. If I were an exterminationist, I would say you are now officially begging the question.

- Just to repeat: I don't think the unregistered were murdered. I just would be happier to hold my position with something concrete.

Please do not alienate me by misrepresenting my position. I did not come here to make enemies but to find (more) allies.

Alain

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:25 pm)

Hannover wrote:Train schedules mean nothing more than people were put on trains.
There is no evidence that they were murdered, period. You have none, they have none.
I can't think of anything more rational, more understandable, more accepted in alleged crime/murder investigations, and more feared for the True Believers, than the demand for physical evidence.

No physical evidence, no holocaust.

- Hannover


Please drop your attitude. I don't want to bring a moderator into this.

I am not - repeat not - saying that the Jews in question were murdered. Why do you say that I am saying this? And then why ask me for evidence for something I don't believe?

Don't you realize that by asking for physical evidence of murder we leave ourselves open to requests for physical evidence also? And wouldn't it help our case to have physical evidence when asked for it?

Again, please take a deep breath and calm down. You're getting upset with me over nothing. We're on the same side. A house divided against itself cannot stand, a wise American once said.

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:40 pm)

Apologies....and same to ya. :wink:

But you did ignore my links...or at least you have not specifically commented on them, they addressed points about the 'unregistered'.

You bring up orders, I bring up orders. The lack of orders for exterminations certainly trumps any missing train records of transportees of which no evidence exists confirming their alleged murders.

I say the possibility for removing the records of trains out of Auschwitz seems reasonable, given the fact that we know there were transports of 'unregistered' out of Auschwitz and the Germans kept detailed rail records. Plus the fact that there are many, many examples of skullduggery when it comes to the so called 'holocau$t'.

Again, sorry, I do not wish to alienate you.

Regards, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:45 pm)

How can WE have physical evidence for non-existent gassings? Illogical, Alain.

Attitude? Me? I call it direct & to the point.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:54 pm)

Hannover wrote:How can WE have physical evidence for non-existent gassings? Illogical, Alain.

Attitude? Me? I call it direct & to the point.

- H.


You have - once again - assessed me as a believer in the standard 'holocaust' story. I am not. Please stop doing this.

All I am trying to say is that there are certain Revisionist points that can and should be backed by physical evidence. Mattogno seems to understand this. So does Rudolf.

You call your behavior 'direct and to the point'. I call it rude and alienating. Please cut it out.

Alain


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