Telegramm by Stroop dated 24th May 1943

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Banshee
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Telegramm by Stroop dated 24th May 1943

Postby Banshee » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:27 pm)

Hello to all.

As new member I have a suggestion.

The famous Stroop report - composed by a series of telegrams sent from Warsaw to Krakow during the period 19th Apr. 1943-16th May 1943 - was never submissed to doubts about his authenticity.


To my knowledge the telegram dated 24.05.1943 was a carbon copy of one original never found and/or produced at the Nuremberg trial, differently to all other daily telegrams send by Stroop which have been found in original and were produced at the Nuremberg trial (see
Poliakov Léon and Josef Wulf, Das Dritte Reich und die Juden. Dokumente und Aufsätze, Arani Verlag, Berlin-Grunewald 1955, p.159, where is reproduced the document).
In this carbon copy, differently from all others daily telegrams sent from 19th April to 16th May by Stroop - and so in total 76 pages - is absent the signature of the unknowned SS-Sturmbannfueher which must autenticate the provenience (under the acronym F.d.R. "Fur die Ricktigkeit"=certified copy, copy authenticated, according to military-administrative gerrman use).
the text of this telegram in the german original: »Von den 56.065 insgesamt erfaßten Juden sind ca. 7000 im Zuge der Großaktion im ehem. jüd. Wohnbezirk selbst vernichtet. Durch Transport nach T. II wurden 6.929 Juden vernichtet, so daß insgesamt 13.929 Juden vernichtet wurden. Über die Zahl 56.065 hinaus sind schätzungsweise 5-6000 Juden bei Sprengungen und durch Feuer vernichtet worden.«
that is in english "Of the total of 56,065 Jews apprehended, about 7,000 were destroyed directly in the course of the grand operation in the former Jewish quarter. 6,929 Jews were destroyed through transport to TII, making the total number of Jews destroyed 13,929. In addition to this figure of 56,065, an estimated 5,000 to 6,000 Jews were destroyed in explosions and fires." see Nuremberg document PS-1061 - or USA-275 - i.e. Paris-Storey doc. nr. 1061 published in International Military Tribunal ("the blue series") -hereafter cited as IMT - vol.XXVI, pp. 628-694 followed by a selection of 18 photograps (on 52).

So my question is this: is possible that this document - repeat, to my knowledge - never produced in original, without signature, is only another faked "proof"?
Anyone have suggestion to my hypothesis?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:53 pm)

Imagine taking an alleged carbon 'copy' to a legitimate court and trying to pawn it off as evidence of an original when that 'copy' doesn't even resemble any of the other alleged original documents previously presented.
You would be laughed out of the courtroom. Nuremberg was a ludicrous series of show trials, this is just one more example.

What's important to remember about Stroop is that he stopped the Warsaw uprising and transferred the Jews to Treblinka...there are few arguments about that.

But it's said that Treblinka was a 'death camp' where 900,000 Jews were supposedly gassed (with diesel...absurd in itself), buried in a massive pit (imagine the size of this alleged pit), latter exhumed, and cremated on outdoor pyres. Pretty difficult for something that was supposed to be a 'secret'.

AND there is no pit to be found where the 900,000 Jews were allegedly buried and exhumed (once the soil has been disturbed to that magnitude, finding such a pit is childs play). There was no pit, none has never been found...period. The Believers cannot show us such a pit.

The whole thing is just part & parcel of the easily debunked 'holocaust' fraud.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:30 pm)

Banshee ends up asking:
'So my question is this: is possible that this document - repeat, to my knowledge - never produced in original, without signature, is only another faked "proof"?

Anyone have suggestion to my hypothesis?'

=====================================================================

Documents are hard to disprove. Then again they would be just as hard to prove if subjected to more demanding verification.

There are a number of alleged German documents that are passed off.

There would even be the 200 page Bolshevik report framing the Germans for the Bolshevik crime at the Katyn forest. Not a German document but something that shows there wouldn't be any problem with the Bolshevik ethic to create forgeries.

Revisionists needn't bother too much with documents. All they have to do is burn the story on technical and scientific grounds and everything else becomes nothing more than part of the ashes.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:38 pm)

Ofcourse, from a simple logic and efficiency viewpoint, why would Stroop send Jews to "TII" (Treblinka) just to be killed? It would be more logical & efficient to execute them locally and save the great expense in fuel, railroad cars, manpower, and time....there was a war on and the mentioned items were in great demand.

Science, logic, and rational thought are the enemies of the 'holocau$t' Industry.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Banshee » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:28 am)

This document, is absurd also from another point of view.

Stroop have expressly stated on date 16 May 1943 that he have compiled a "Final rapport" long more 10 pages. In this rapport he have give a resumé of the history of the Uprising and of the fights from April to May 16th when the affair was declared finish by the same Stroop.

Curiously, 8 (eight) days after he send (?) another telegramm with a strange reference to Treblinka II.

So my question is this: from a logical, historical and factual point of view, WHY send a telegramm with informations....which the SS at Krakow already known perfectly?

We have here another example of "Franke-Grisch Rapport" falsification?

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:17 am)

Hannover wrote:Ofcourse, from a simple logic and efficiency viewpoint, why would Stroop send Jews to "TII" (Treblinka) just to be killed? It would be more logical & efficient to execute them locally and save the great expense in fuel, railroad cars, manpower, and time.- H.


They DID....WHEN THEY COULD!!

Stroop's razing of the Ghetto probably resulted in the deaths of thousands. Captured surviors could not be murdered in Warsaw area because.......

1. Perpetrators for shooting firing squad style were hard to find. Eintzgruppen broke down over time and Police units killing Jews by mass shootings locally in Eastern Poland reported a continuing drop in effectiveness. More individual unit members dodged the duty thus a Reliance on HIWI units. These units would only do killings when closely supervised and drunk.
2. As demosntrated in Ukraine mass shootings upset German witnesses
3. Treblinka had pre existing facilities.
4. Personal opinion that in May 1943 many German adminstrators knew German side was in trouble. Thus a desire to carry out killings of women and children civilians "out there" by "somebody else" in another "jurisdiction" when possible.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:21 am)

But you said there were 'deaths in thousands', but then you said 'they couldn't find anyone to kill the captives'. Lot's of luck with that, it makes no sense.

You then list a few bizarre, unsubstantiated assertions, but provide no evidence for them. That will not work here, and we won't let it slide either.

I noticed you avoided other points presented here by Banshee about the documents. Why?

Your welcomed to your personal opinion, but it matters little here, verifiable evidence is what matters.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:34 am)

Hannover wrote:But you said there were 'deaths in thousands', but then you said 'they couldn't find anyone to kill the captives'. Lot's of luck with that, it makes no sense.

You then list a few bizarre, unsubstantiated assertions, but provide no evidence for them. That will not work here, and we won't let it slide either.



I said perpetrators for firing squad style killings were harder to find.

Many times perpetrators of atrocities are willing to kill if given a weak "justification" and are somewhat "removed" from actual killings.

In Warsaw Ghetto liquidation some Jews were resisting and others were killed in buildings. Thus giving perpetrators a "justfication" (armed resistance by "bandits") and people were killed in burning buildings "removal"

Firing squad style killings are alot more personal...hence fewer willing perpetrators.

German witnesses being upset by Eintzgruppen is a fact. In response, German Eintzgruppen commanders forbade obsevations by Wermacht troops and German civlians, drove a way locals (even if nominaly supportive of killings) and confiscated film on occasions.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:48 am)

Again, you present no evidence that was requested. Why?

Please present verifiable evidence that Warsaw ghetto transports to Treblinka were murdered there, or anywhere else for that matter? Do not dodge....read the guidelines

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:25 pm)

Hannover wrote:Again, you present no evidence that was requested. Why?

Please present verifiable evidence that Warsaw ghetto transports to Treblinka were murdered there, or anywhere else for that matter? Do not dodge....read the guidelines

- Hannover


Mr Hannover:

While I agree with your position here, this gentleman is not 'dodging'. He's answering the question not to your satisfaction - that is, he has not produced evidence that either you (or I) find compelling. That is not 'dodging'. Let the lurkers decide who has won.

Frankly the 'dodging' rule has the feeling of a rigging to it.

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:25 pm)

He claims 'evidence', when challenged to show it he cannot produce it, but continues on with the same assertions. Silly.

There can be no real debate if someone is allowed you go on & on with 'because I say so' mantras.

We debate specifics here, not unsubstantiated statements. That's the way it is....for everyone.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Banshee » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:12 pm)

1/2 Believer have wrote:


""I said perpetrators for firing squad style killings were harder to find.

Many times perpetrators of atrocities are willing to kill if given a weak "justification" and are somewhat "removed" from actual killings.

In Warsaw Ghetto liquidation some Jews were resisting and others were killed in buildings. Thus giving perpetrators a "justfication" (armed resistance by "bandits") and people were killed in burning buildings "removal"

Firing squad style killings are alot more personal...hence fewer willing perpetrators.

German witnesses being upset by Eintzgruppen is a fact. In response, German Eintzgruppen commanders forbade obsevations by Wermacht troops and German civlians, drove a way locals (even if nominaly supportive of killings) and confiscated film on occasions.""


De facto Einsatzgruppen don't have partecipate in the fights against the Jews Partisans (two units of WaffenSS,Wehrmacht, Auxiliary ukrainians).
Here the Germans were entirely correct: the partisans Jews were in number from 1,000 to 2,000, were armed and the Uprising was a serious danger.
For two months the german authority have try to remove the inhabitants of the Ghetto and transfer they in factories near Lublin pacifically.
Hannover is entirely correct in ask you: what proofs you have.
If You don't known nothing of the matter, why you post messages?

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:58 pm)

De facto Einsatzgruppen don't have partecipate in the fights against the Jews Partisans (two units of WaffenSS,Wehrmacht, Auxiliary ukrainians).
Here the Germans were entirely correct: the partisans Jews were in number from 1,000 to 2,000, were armed and the Uprising was a serious danger.

Hannover is entirely correct in ask you: what proofs you have.
If You don't known nothing of the matter, why you post messages?[/quote]

Wrong Banshee,

I never said Eintzgruppen cleared Ghetto. By the way....auxilaries were also Lithuanian....incomplete subject knowledge on your part?

Jewish partisans in Waraw Ghetto NEVER were anywhere close to 1000-2000 fighters. Jews had only 1 machine gun, a few rifles and several dozen pistols purchased from Poles.

Stroop's casulties of about 18 dead are consistant with a small number of poorly armed resistance fighters.

Perhaps you are the one lacking knowledge on the subject.

Or did you just beleive Stroops report on his "campaign". Other German commanders found it grandiose.

In regards to Hannover.....I am still waiting for Hannover's answer on what proof he accepts Soviet atrocities against Germans. Once he answers.....perhaps I can dig up some acceptable equivelant proof. (unless Hannover's answer's indicate that there is no obtainable level of proof he is willing to accept.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:42 am)

I notice an earlier post of mine in response to Mr Hannover has been removed.

If some people think it wise to call in moderators when cornered, then I shall do the same. The gauntlet has been thrown, and not by me.

Sad, considering that we should be a united front.

Alain

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:55 am)

Nonsense, Alain. I did not remove a post by you. Please get your facts right, or perhaps your memory is a bit off today

- Moderator
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.


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