Telegramm by Stroop dated 24th May 1943

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Hannover
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:49 am)

Mr. 1/2 curiously said:
In regards to Hannover.....I am still waiting for Hannover's answer on what proof he accepts Soviet atrocities against Germans. Once he answers.....perhaps I can dig up some acceptable equivelant proof. (unless Hannover's answer's indicate that there is no obtainable level of proof he is willing to accept.


Yawn...I'll repeat for Mr. 1/2:

Mass graves aplenty (physical evidence), see my reference to Joachim Hoffmann's work..which you ignored. And civilian cemeteries aplenty all over Germany.

Now, where's your physical evidence for the alleged up to 2,000,000 Einsatzgruppen shootings?

And do stop changing the subject to Soviet mass atrocities against the Germans, we all know how horrific they were. You've been challenged to provide physical evidence for your up to 2,000,000 shootings that you allege of the Einsatzgruppen. No subject changing, Mr. 1/2.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Banshee » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:01 pm)

1/2 Believer write:

""Wrong Banshee,

I never said Eintzgruppen cleared Ghetto. By the way....auxilaries were also Lithuanian....incomplete subject knowledge on your part?

Jewish partisans in Waraw Ghetto NEVER were anywhere close to 1000-2000 fighters. Jews had only 1 machine gun, a few rifles and several dozen pistols purchased from Poles.

Stroop's casulties of about 18 dead are consistant with a small number of poorly armed resistance fighters.

Perhaps you are the one lacking knowledge on the subject.

Or did you just beleive Stroops report on his "campaign". Other German commanders found it grandiose.""


My answer:
I'm sorry but YOU're Totally wrong and Your knowledge of this episode is very scarce

1) I have omitted to remember that also Lithuanians auxiliaries were involved for simplicity ...and also because don't exist a official document which indicate the presence of the Lithuanians. But reading the list of personnel wounded or killed, one can reasonably suspect that also Lithuanians were present. Is all here: and this is "incomplete knowledge of matter from me"? sic!
2) Warsaw fighters WERE well between the number of 1,000 to 2,000.
Please read a work by a specialist of Polish history who cites estimates of between 1,000 and 2,000 Jewish ghetto fighters: Richard Lukas, The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944, Lexington, KY, 1986, pp. 172, 178, 267 n.106.
Jewish historian Ber Mark say of at least 1,000 fighters plus an unspicified number of others helping (see B. Mark, Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, NY, Schocken, 1975, p.15.
3) We see together the armament of Jewish Fighters, in some excerpts taken from an specialist Jewish historian of the Partisan Warfare in Poland:

"WARSAW WAS THE MAIN CENTER OF THE RESISTANCE movement in Poland, both for the Jews in the ghetto and for the Poles" (p.161).

"The means by which the military organizations tried to acquire arms were varied. Intensive demands for help were made to the Polish underground organizations. For this purpose, the Jewish Fighting Organization maintained ties with both the Home Army and the People's Guard. The Jewish Military Union received substantial aid in the acquisition of arms from the Polish People's Independence Action (PLAN) and the Security Corps (KB). Arms production was developed in the ghetto. Both the military organizations and the independent groups organized the acquisition of arms and their transferral into the ghetto, using their own means. (...) Relying on archival material, the authors of The Polish Armed Forces in World War II, Part 3: Home Army state that the following quantities of arms were supplied to the Jewish Fighting Organization: 90 pistols with two magazines and ammunition, 500 defense hand grenades, 100 attack hand grenades, 15 kilograms of plastic and fuses and detonators, 1 light machine gun, 1 submachine gun, explosives such as clock bombs, and time bombs. This list matches the information given by Colonel Henryk Wolinski, Marek Edelman, and Zivia Lubetkin." (p.176)


"Jonas Turkow and Dvorah Goldkorn write extensively on these workshops [in the ghetto]. According to Edelman, they were able to make four or five Molotov cocktails per fighter".(p.177)

"Another source of arms supplies for the ghetto's military organizations was the purchase of weapons on the Aryan side and later smuggled into the ghetto. This was achieved partly by connections made through the Home Army and the People's Guard, and partly through independent ties. Jonas Turkow writes about contacts with a Polish group that supplied the ghetto with some rifles, guns, hand grenades, and ammunition and with an arms workshop in Radom, which resulted in the successful smuggling of guns and ammunition into the ghetto. (p.177)"

According to existing sources, it is possible to estimate that the average person in the Jewish Fighting Organization had at most one pistol (...) four or five grenades, and four or five Molotov cocktails (p.177) .[see Orah Blaunstein, The War of the Doomed: Jewish Armed Resistance in Poland 1942-1944, New York, Holmes & Meier, 1984].

I.e. according to existing sources, a grand total of 750 pistols, 3,000 hand grenades, 3,000 Molotov cocktails ut minimum!! And this only one organization, ....whaw!

The casualties reported by Stroop are clearly minimized to conceal the great problems encountered in the fights. According to various historical researchers the number of killed or wounded men by Stroop is greater (200-300 in total).

So You're WRONG on all subjects of Your posts. Please stay on the topic and answer to questions:
1) The Stroop raport is a possible faked?
2) Where is the evidence that the Jews were killed at Treblinka in the gas chambers.
Any answer is appreciate.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:25 pm)

Banshee wrote: So my question is this: is possible that this document - repeat, to my knowledge - never produced in original, without signature, is only another faked "proof"?
Anyone have suggestion to my hypothesis?

That this document is a fake is absolutely possible. I have absolutely no confidence in any of the documents produced by the various kangaroo courts in Nuremberg and elsewhere about WWII and the Holocaust.

A non-authenricated carbon copy of anything has no business in a proper court of justice as documentary proof. But justice was the last thing those courts were about.

The context of that telex, that of the 56,065 Jews who were captured in the ghetto 7000 were destroyed in the ghetto and 6,929 were sent to T.II and destroyed there, does not agree with the statement under oath made by Stroop on February 24, 1946, which was also submitted to the IMT (PS-3841), and which said:

After the people were removed from the ghetto, between 50,000 and 60,000 were taken to the railroad station. The security police were in charge of these people and were responsible for the their transportation to Lublin.

According to this then the 56,065 Jews were therefore sent to Lublin, and not destroyed, neither in the ghetto nor in Treblinka!

Stroop have expressly stated on date 16 May 1943 that he have compiled a "Final rapport" long more 10 pages. In this rapport he have give a resumé of the history of the Uprising and of the fights from April to May 16th when the affair was declared finish by the same Stroop.

Curiously, 8 (eight) days after he send (?) another telegramm with a strange reference to Treblinka II.

Something certainly seems to be out of synchronism here.

:D
fge


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