The White Rose

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Hannover
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The White Rose

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:32 am)

Anyone know much about these people?

I keep hearing about the pamphlets they supposedly distributed, but cannot find the actual pamphlets anywhere, only 'english translations' and the typical judeo-supremacist spin.

I smell a bunch of communist agitators who were arrested and the actual text of their pamphlets have been changed to hide their Soviet leanings.

Imagine distributing treasonous pamphlets against the 'Allied' governments in any of those countries. The entire 'Sophie Scholl' story sounds bogus. Any thoughts?

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:35 am)

They were no communists but 4 Catholic students and a professor. These were Hans and Sophie Scholl (brother and sister), Prof. Huber, Alexander Schmorell, and one more. Their resistance was unspecific and a reaction on the "crimes of "Hitler regime".

As far as I know they mention atrocities against Jews in the east once in a pamphlet but nothing specific. Some of the students became soldiers at the east front and came along with rumors.

You find the pamphlets here: http://www.bpb.de/themen/KQWNOS,0,0,Flugblatt_V.html

The word Juden appears in 3 paragraphs in the pamphlets:

"Goethe spricht von den Deutschen als einem tragischen Volke, gleich dem der Juden und Griechen, aber heute hat es eher den Anschein, als sei es eine seichte, willenlose Herde von Mitläufern, denen das Mark aus dem Innersten gesogen und die nun ihres Kerns beraubt, bereit sind, sich in den Untergang hetzen zu lassen." Pam. I

Here they refer to Goethe who compared the fate of the German nation with the Jews.

"Nicht über die Judenfrage wollen wir in diesem Blatte schreiben, keine Verteidigungsrede verfassen - nein, nur als Beispiel wollen wir die Tatsache kurz anführen, die Tatsache, daß seit der Eroberung Polens dreihunderttausend Juden in diesem Land auf bestialischste Art ermordet worden sind. Hier sehen wir das fürchterlichste Verbrechen an der Würde des Menschen, ein Verbrechen, dem sich kein ähnliches in der ganzen Menschengeschichte an die Seite stellen kann. Auch die Juden sind doch Menschen - man mag sich zur Judenfrage stellen wie man will -, und an Menschen wurde solches verübt. Vielleicht sagt jemand, die Juden hätten ein solches Schicksal verdient; diese Behauptung wäre eine ungeheure Anmaßung; aber angenommen, es sagte jemand dies, wie stellt er sich dann zu der Tatsache, daß die gesamte polnische adelige Jugend vernichtet worden ist (gebe Gott, daß sie es noch nicht ist!)?" Pam. II

In this paragraph they mention 300.000 polish Jews that were killed "bestialic". But later they describe the alledged mass morder of the aristrocratic youth in Poland a bit more detailled.

"Deutsche! Wollt Ihr und Eure Kinder dasselbe Schicksal erleiden, das den Juden widerfahren ist? Wollt Ihr mit dem gleichen Maße gemessen werden wie Eure Verführer? Sollen wir auf ewig das von aller Welt gehaßte und ausgestoßene Volk sein?" Pam. V

If you read the texts carefully you find out that the Weisse Rose guys were antisemites. :D
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby friedrich braun » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:27 pm)

The ugly cow was convicted of sabotaging German armaments, and, hence, being directly involved in the death of German soldiers who had to fight with defective arms. Woolly-headed traitors are still traitors.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:49 am)

Thanks ClaudiaR.

- Are we sure of the origins of those fliers?
- I would really like to see the actual charges brought against them. What do the official, verifiable, Gestapo and court records say? If they are not available, then why not?
- How would these "students" know about '300,000 Jews' ("dreihunderttausend Juden in diesem Land auf bestialischste Art ermordet worden sind")?
- And since when haven't catholics turned communist?
- I have heard that the culprits were beheaded, if anyone can believe that.
- Agitating against the state, any state, in wartime, would certainly bring severe sentences.

The whole matter is a hollow shell.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:38 pm)

Here you go, Mr. Nobody.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:44 pm)

tah.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:27 pm)

- I have heard that the culprits were beheaded, if anyone can believe that.


Well, I can believe that. As opposed to the United States, beheadings as a form of execution was continued in many European nations until relatively recent times. If I recall correctly, the guillotine was used in France up until the abolishment of capital punishment in 1977.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:02 pm)

Both the trial records and interrogation records survived the war and are now published.
You can also find references to the case in contemparanous Nazi newspapers.

Where they got their claims from?
One of their more lurid claims was the one that the SS had forcibly recruited all the daughters of Polish nobility (and polish nobility was rather large) into SS brothels in Norway.

My guess is they picked up a lot from BBC radio - they include quite detailed instructions about desertion and economic sabotage that were being broadcast by the BBC.

The British also did an air drop of their last pamphlet.....suggesting that their links to British might have been stronger than is acknowledged, although they were probably fall guys.

They certainly didnt deserve their fate.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:57 pm)

The White Rose issue got me thinking about another event, at the risk of sounding like a "Conspiracy Theorist" meaning I don't see "Black Propaganda" in every WWII event, but........

Have you noticed that every time a Publication, Documentary or Movie is made concerning the July 20, '44 "Bomb Plot" against Hitler that when they discuss the fate of the ring leaders of the Plot, the Author/Narrator always concludes with "a film of the execution of the Conspirators dangling from Meat-hooks was made & presented to Hitler for Personal viewing"

The fact that the Plotters were hung using Rope or Piano wire from Meat-Hooks is not the point

the point is, the claim/allegation that Hitler or Goebbels commissioned a film to be made in the first place.

let's consider some points

1.If true this would be the world's first Snuff Movie, another first for Hitler & the Nazis.

2.Whenever this "film" is discussed in movie or Documentary the alleged film is never shown, only a still image of a wall with 5 or 6 meat-Hooks either mounted in the wall or hung from a bar, Why is it that Documentaries can show piles of Naked Emaciated Corpses being shoved into a ditch with a British Bulldozer, but they can't show even one single still with the Plotters hanging from the Meat-Hooks???

3. Why are Publications & Documentaries etc unable to come to a common consensus regarding the actual figure of exactly how many Plotters met this fate, is it 6 or 8?

4. Why are they unable to come to a common consensus regarding whether it was Rope, Hemp Rope or Piano Wire used for the actual execution???

5. Who or what are the sources for this Meat Hook Execution Film Story???

6. Who saw the Film, some narratives state, The executions and trials were reportedly filmed and later reviewed by Hitler and his entourage. A version of these films was later combined into a 30 minute movie by Goebbels and also shown to cadets at the Lichterfelde cadet school but viewers supposedly walked out of the screening in dis-gust. ( William L. Shirer) (I had to split that word dis-gust in order to avoid the emoticon)

Just Hitler or Almost the Entire General Staff of the German Armed Forces as a threat of what happens to Traitors, take your pick

7. Where is this Snuff Movie, where can I buy my own copy???

Answer

Popular Source : Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer
(often describe by academics & Scholars as "being more popular history than academic, rarely rising above the most commonplace level of understanding", Sounds like Pulp Fiction )

And the Source William L. Shirer used? see below :

Primary Source : Allen Dulles Director of Central Intelligence (de-facto head of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency) & Station chief in Berne Switzerland for the Office of Strategic Services during WWII

I think another Myth has been busted.

There was never a film, it was a CIA concoction of Black Propaganda!

Who writes this stuff anyway???

The Art of Propaganda
by Sum Joo
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:51 pm)

jnovitz wrote:Both the trial records and interrogation records survived the war and are now published.
You can also find references to the case in contemparanous Nazi newspapers.


I also believe that the pamphlets had been found and are stored in a German archive, IIRC. Which specific archive I cannot remember.

I see no real reason to doubt the organization's alleged activities or the punishment thereof. Did exagerrations occur in the historiography of these credited "martyrs"? Likely, as it was with the events surrounding Jessia Lynch in the 2003 Us-Iraq war; however, I see no real reason to doubt the core of the story of a dedicated anti-Nazi group, putting out publications, causing an anti-Nazi stir, and then receiving severe punishment.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:11 pm)

Wahrheit wrote:
I also believe that the pamphlets had been found and are stored in a German archive, IIRC. Which specific archive I cannot remember.


But you have to ask which Pamphlets are they?

Are they "White Rose" produced Pamphlets?

or

Are they British Air dropped Pamphlets dropped in the name of "White Rose"?

We can't always accept what appears to be solid irrefutable evidence at face value simply because & Scholar, Historian or Archive holds them.

As I've pointed out in the Hitler Snuff Movie, every Historian or Doco dealing with the Plot mentions the Film, but when you look into it, the evidence that it ever existed is non existent.

Although it's not Holocaust related the Myth of the Film's existence easily demonstrates how Propaganda can be accepted as fact for 60 years without challenge & all it took to expose the lie was a 5 minute reference search
Sometimes the allegation is less important that who's spreading it.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Re: The White Rose

Postby Mkk » 6 years 5 months ago (Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:36 am)

Carolyn Yeager has two podcasts relating to this organisation:

http://carolynyeager.net/saturday-after ... table-talk
http://carolynyeager.net/heretics-hour-hitler-vs-church

The White Rose Society members were listening to foreign radio broadcasts and associating with communists and the Lutheran Bonhoeffer family;


Strange how that isnt mentioned in the recent German film about the group?
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re:

Postby Hektor » 6 years 5 months ago (Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:19 pm)

MrNobody wrote:
Wahrheit wrote:
I also believe that the pamphlets had been found and are stored in a German archive, IIRC. Which specific archive I cannot remember.


But you have to ask which Pamphlets are they?

Are they "White Rose" produced Pamphlets?

or

Are they British Air dropped Pamphlets dropped in the name of "White Rose"?


We can't always accept what appears to be solid irrefutable evidence at face value simply because & Scholar, Historian or Archive holds them.

As I've pointed out in the Hitler Snuff Movie, every Historian or Doco dealing with the Plot mentions the Film, but when you look into it, the evidence that it ever existed is non existent.

Although it's not Holocaust related the Myth of the Film's existence easily demonstrates how Propaganda can be accepted as fact for 60 years without challenge & all it took to expose the lie was a 5 minute reference search
Sometimes the allegation is less important that who's spreading it.

My take is that they produced their own pamphlets, but that the content mainly stemmed from air dropped pamphlets, radio programs (Like the ones Thomas Mann made) and rumors. Motivation was merely academic bourgeois resentment. The driving force may have been the father who disliked Hitler and the NS resentfully. Add to that that even children from elite families had to perform menial tasks in the Arbeitsdienst. Less known is that the Scholls were drug junkies, which may have further influenced their condition.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katec ... hite_Rose/

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Re: The White Rose

Postby neugierig » 6 years 5 months ago (Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:36 pm)

Some time ago I found a book, by chance, titled "Der Nationalsozialismus. Dokumente 1933-1945" (National Socialism. Documents 1933-1945). A gold mine in many aspects, and, two of the 'Weiße Rose' flyers are included, as well as the verdict of the trial. I need time to translate it, but will make an effort.

Scholl called on Germans to force Hitler to end the war. High Treason in wartime, and any other government would have acted just as the Germans did.

Regards
Wilf

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Re: The White Rose

Postby Mkk » 6 years 5 months ago (Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:23 pm)

Has anyone else watched the recent-ish film on the topic: "Sophie Scholl: Die Letzen Tagen" [in German]?

I cant remember anything being mentioned of the Russian revolutionary communist who was the ringleader of the group. In general, the communist/socialist side to the group was not mentioned either, nor was the fact that the Scholl's opposition to National Socialism stemmed from their Social Democrat father and experiences in the Hitler Jugend, before the war, rather than claims of alleged atrocities against Jews as is the explanation put forward in the film .

All rather conspicuous, but who expected a 21st century German film about the resistance to be completely factual and open?
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13


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