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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:58 pm)

When Weber says he, or we, "do NOT deny the Holocaust," does that mean he believes in the holocaust? Huh?

Well, I think it means Weber believes in the holocaust. Weber's belief in the holocaust is, I think, firmly established by the statements he has been making. I hope I am not going too fast for anyone here.

Sure, Weber "questions" and even "highlights" some of the more obvious falsehoods--but who among any of the establishment "historians" hasn't done that from time to time? By his "questioning" and "highlighting," he is hardly doing anything courageous or even noteworthy. It keeps the newcomers fooled--but it does not really get us anywhere on the hard but important issues. Let Weber do all he wants as an ordinary citizen. But, as the director of the IHR which used to be the leading holocaust revisionist organization in the world, his behaviour is a kind of betrayal. He deserves our condemnation.

Until he was director and until he had the IHR firmly in his grip, Weber never made the kind of statements he is making now. If he had, I think he would have been ending his career there. In any event, it is high time that his career at the IHR ends now!

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:29 pm)

The fact of the matter is(I think), "Holocaust denial/denier" is an invention of the enemies of truth- it is a stereo-typing label, since they invented it they define what it means. I think it's a trap.
Since pain and suffering are subjective experiences, the person who experiences it can name that experience anyway they want. Anyone can name their experience a "holocaust", there is no way to say, "oh, no, that was no "holocaust"", with any validity. They felt it was, so to them, it was.
Labels and stereotyping is an attempt at destroying individuality(independence and free-thought), and consequently enforcement of conformity.
It cannot be denied that there were totally innocent "Jews" persecuted and murdered during that period. It also cannot be denied that there were Zionists (and associates) who also have the blood of their lesser brethren(and many, many others) on their hands.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:25 am)

NovyMir It cannot be denied that there were totally innocent "Jews" persecuted and murdered during that period.

Yes it can be denied, unless of course you have some evidence. That statement of yours is saying there were some Germans (soldiers) who were murderers. Your statement is actually an accusation of murder against the Germans. Again, have you any evidence? Do you suppose every nation may have its bad apples like 2Lt William Calley? Even then evidence would be required. But still, there was no holocaust.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:47 am)

Kiwichap wrote:NovyMir It cannot be denied that there were totally innocent "Jews" persecuted and murdered during that period.

Yes it can be denied, unless of course you have some evidence. That statement of yours is saying there were some Germans (soldiers) who were murderers. Your statement is actually an accusation of murder against the Germans. Again, have you any evidence? Do you suppose every nation may have its bad apples like 2Lt William Calley? Even then evidence would be required. But still, there was no holocaust.

------------------------------

Of course technically anything can be denied. Anybody can say anything they want. But not without consequences.
My post(and I) am saying that persecution and murder happened. In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder. It matters not the intent, and it matters not the reasons or rationalizations(these are other issues). Intentions do not determine results, actions have consequences, and as adults people must accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Also, to argue that there were no "bad apples" in the German Army is to imply perfection in human behavior of vast numbers over a substantial time that to me seems statistically improbable.
I believe your angle of dispute is akin to that of a person who has committed a crime, but gets away with it in a court because of a "lack of evidence" or a technicality. That does not mean the person was "innocent", it means he was lucky that the system was set up with the intent to not punish those who truely are innocent, with the understanding that occasionally the guilty will escape justice.
All this is off-point-- the "extermination policy", "gas-chambers", and "physical extermination" is what the dispute is all about and these specific assertions most definitely require facts and "evidence" before they can be accepted as true. Since the assertions are of a physical nature(documents, facilities, bodies), they must be supported with physical evidence, which if it existed would not be hard to discover.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:51 am)

BradleySmith wrote:Quote: Some of us are calling it a hoax. That's a lot more than merely "questioning."


Revisionism means questioning it. There is no need to take a dogmatic stance on the issue (like the Holocaustians do). I'm not assuming that it did (not) happen and then find the evidence and arguments for it. I'm looking at the evidence and realize that it is not proving the claim of the Holocaustians. Then I look further and I see that right from the beginning deceptions and psychological trickery were used to make people believe in these "German Nazi atrocities". This then formed the foundation of the Holocaust. Furthermore there is no critical dealing with Allied atrocity propaganda by the side of most Historians. They chose to be silent on this and leave the atrocity claims unchallenged. So at least there are very good reasons to question the Holocaust.


BradleySmith wrote:The folk on this Forum know what we mean when we say "it." The public does not. Is it a "hoax" to argue that an 800-year-old Jewish culture in Eastern Europe was destroyed by the Germans in two years or so? In the public mind, that's part of "it," and I do not think that that part of "it" can be demonstrated to be a "hoax." Part of our work is to take revisionist arguments to a main stream audience. Having a rigid definitiion for the newspeak term "Holocaust," which is to be used on all occasions, is self defeating, and it contributes to the further fragmentation of an uncertain, disorganized, substantially ineffective revisionist "community."
There is another deception they are using - Holocaust is an umbrella term for everything "the Nazis" did do "with the Jews" - Accept one issue and the morons claim this proves the whole. Dispute a claim and you are a denier of it all. This is freezing the debate by design.


BradleySmith wrote:We will all disagree with one another about this or that. Carto, following the example of one of his many mentors, used to say "let a thousand flowers bloom." I agree with Carto on this one. We need to communicate with the folk in our communities, including media, much more than we need to condemn each other. Of course, it is more difficult to talk effectively about the H. in public, face to face, than it is to condemn revisionists, safely, via the internet.
... That's like denying the virgin birth of Mary. That was also more difficult then attacking another heretic. Personally I don't give to much on debating the H. with common people. I'll just take a stance when it comes to the issue. Debating it with those 2 - 3 % of a population that actually do think and utter things others will listen, too. is much more important. One would think changing people's minds on Holocaust nonsense is easy. It isn't and that's because it is an institutionalized belief.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:58 am)

Novy Mir said:
In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder. It matters not the intent, and it matters not the reasons or rationalizations(these are other issues). Intentions do not determine results, actions have consequences, and as adults people must accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Well then, the Allies were far more guilty than the Germans.

We are certainly a far cry from discussing Weber.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:37 am)

Novy Mir wrote the folloing above:

In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder. It matters not the intent, and it matters not the reasons or rationalizations(these are other issues).


Why don't the reasons, or intent, or rationalizations matter? By January of 1942, a war was going on in which tens of thousands of totally innocent German citizens had already been murdered by Allied bombing. Could that possibly have made a difference or been important? When Novy Mir uses the term "negative impact," that is a really a strange standard. Keeping Jews in the centers of German cities would have also had a "negative impact" on their health. Deportations of Jews to the East were not necessarily any more hazardous than keeping them where they were.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:22 pm)

Well, Hannover, the Allies actions are a separate issue, but I generally agree they are the ones who set the precedent for barbarism.

Okay, Mr. Berg, I will try to explain.
Why the reasons, intent, and rationalizations do not matter is because we(or I) are talking about innocent people here, we are talking about people who had nothing to do with subversion, corruption, domination or anything else that interferred with or harmed the "German Nation". The authorities knew this, the government targeted people entirely based on their genealogy, not their actions, with a few exceptions. Therefore the government knowingly and willfully interferred in people's live's for illegitimate reasons and cannot escape the fact that it was responsible for their demise.
I think you know better than to try to rationalize that they were safer as slaves in the camps than in the cities, considering that not all cities were bombed, nor were they all Dresdens, and of course we can surmise that they were not put into the camps to save them from the bombing(which would be a requirement to make your rationalization honest).

The difference I see between the official story and the closest approximation of truth is the difference between 1st degree pre-meditatated mass-murder and 2nd degree murder, possibly manslaughter in some cases. But that's just my opinion. The Allies in my opinion are guilty of the 1st.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:46 pm)

In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder.

But this is nowhere near what happened to the Jews. Those rounded up and sent to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, enjoyed a lifestyle which many would envy. Auschwitz sure looks beautiful in the spring. Have you seen the size of the kitchens? The sports fields, swimming pool, tree lined promenades, culture groups, orchestras. (It is interesting to count the number of inmate orchestras in Auschwitz, My count has reached four so far and there are possibly more. I believe there were two Jewish womens orchestras), workshops, religious observance, vast programs of disinfestation, hospitals... the list goes on. These are the facts. Then we have wishful thinking without any source, 'it cannot be denied that the Germans murdered Jews...' Yes it can. It goes against the facts as we know them. That type of thinking is contaminated with the propaganda, 'first we demonise the Germans, then folk will believe any nonsense we tell them'.

Eli Weisel and his dad put the lie to the killings. They got the best treatment possible for their ailments. They chose to go with the Germans on the march back to Germany. These are the facts. Then we have wishful thinking without any source, 'it cannot be denied that the Germans murdered Jews...'

This accusation of murder without basis, goes on and on and needs to be tackled. It seems to be the last bastion of the hoaxer. With the gaschambers debunked, the numbers quashed, the policy shown to be untrue, then we get this mellodramatic claim without source, 'the Germans were bad and killed Jews'. Oh, and we are always told we cannot deny it. Ya just gotta laugh.

The victorious powers rounded up the German soldiers after the war and placed millions of them in open paddocks. They dug holes in the ground to find shelter. Now that would certainly fulfill NovyMir's assertion. In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder. The German camps were heaven on earth. The Allied camps were hell. Now thems the facts. Can you imagine how easy it would have been to kill Jews enmass as we did the Germans, if the Germans had treated the Jews thus? No silly gas chambers needed.

I get tired of hearing about Jewish persecution without source. The Geneva convention was followed by the Germans. (In New Zealand we put the Japanese into a concentration camp, their kin had declared war on us. Perhaps they were all innocent, but who can afford to take the risk?) The Jews were rounded up in accordance with 5th column wartime policy anywhere, they headed off in railway coaches with their chosen possessions to a safe place for the duration of the war. Work was the only stipulation and work never killed anyone. Despite food shortage, typhus and other epidemics, millions were there at the end. There was no holocaust.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:35 am)

Novy Mir's accusation is worth looking at carefully:
In my opinion a government that rounds up innocent, law-abiding citizens and puts them into a situation that could be reasonably predicted to have a negative impact on the health and well-being of them, and that directly results in their death is guilty of murder.


When Novy Mir uses the expression "negative impact," I think that shows he knows perfectly well that the intent was NOT to murder any of them. During wartime, millions of men--usually young but not always--are drafted into the military and put in harm's way against their will. That is normal and that is what is required, especially when a small country has to fight against overwhelming odds as Germany did. Bigger countries did that as well. And, they also drafted civilians into various work battalions as well--women as well as men. All of those people were likely to experience "negative impact" from such forced assignments during war.

Many other people, especially children, were "evacuated" to live and perhaps work far away from areas of danger if possible. My wife, for example, as a child spent many of the war years living in an unused military barracks in Bavaria far away from her home town which was in the industrial Ruhr. How many London children were "evacuated" from London against their wishes?

Novy Mir has no idea as to what is involved in modern war. When the war started in Poland, one of the first things which happened within hours was that the Polish government began mass roundups of ethnic Germans. Those roundups used carefully prepared lists of names and addresses to find and arrest the ethnic Germans--and move them to areas where they would be carefully controlled. Many were murdered according to German accounts afterwards--but the roundups themselves were not necessarily any kind of crime. The same thing happened in the US shortly after Pearl Harbor when the FBI began roundups not only of Japanese-Americans but German-Americans and Italian-Americans as well. I might have been born in an American concentration camp.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:50 am)

This thread has gone hopelessly off course, note the original post, Weber is no longer part of the conversation. If anyone wants to start a new thread on any of the topics that ended up in this thread, then please do so. This thread is locked.
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