Himmler in Minsk the defining moment for the Holocaust

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MrNobody
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Himmler in Minsk the defining moment for the Holocaust

Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:18 pm)

My apologies if this has been covered before, I've done a number of forum searches using different key words but was unable to find similar content.

I just wanted to point this inconsistency out, I don't know if I'm asking a question or making a point anymore, it's all just bending my head around.

anyway.

Here we have Erich Von Dem Bach-Zelewski's witness statement from the Eichmann trial, Bach-Zelewski also states that he is reading from his personal Diary Entries :

I can remember a shooting of twenty or thirty people. I can
see from my diary that this must have been on 17 August
1941.
The manager of an SS estate had previously been shot
north of Minsk. Subsequently, Operations Unit B under Nebe
arrested two women and a number of men, some in uniform and
others in civilian clothing. In my opinion, they were
partisans.
As far as I remember, they included Jews, too -
two or three of them
. I see now in my diary that the
manager of the SS estate was SS Untersturmfuehrer Krause.
He had been killed on 31 July 1941.

The people captured by the Nebe Operations Unit were brought
before a field court martial.
They were sentenced to death.
I do not know who sat in the court martial. Himmler himself
was present at the executions. Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff and
I were also present. He had accompanied Himmler from
Baranovichi to Minsk. Himmler was very pale during the
executions. I think that watching it made him feel sick.

The executions were carried out by shooting with carbines.

I myself was constantly remonstrating with Himmler about
unjustified executions,


Source : http://www.nizkor.org

So far we have a Assassination of an SS Officer on 31 July '41 which resulted in an Anti-Partisan Operation on the 17th August '41which netted 20-30 Partisans, which were subject to a Field Court Martial however much of a Kangaroo Court that actually was, in attendance we also have Himmler & Wolff, Nebe isn't Specifically mentioned, only that Operations Unit B under his command was involved in the arrest & they bought the suspects before the courts martial & Bach-Zelewski can't recall who sat on the Courts Martial & finally Himmler became pale as a result of the Executions & Bach-Zelewski's last statement alludes to the fact that the court martial was probably more of a farce than a trial, or that he was merely trying to absolve himself of any responsibility. (more likely)

Enter the Official Holocaust Narrative
If you do a search on the net using the key words "Himmler Minsk" the first 5 hits are going to be from Official Holocaust Projects or Museums, however the story takes a dramatic turn :
main Points:

1. the date is often given as the 15th August (2 days before Zelewski's Diary Entry)

2. 20 to 30 Partisans become 100 or 120 Jews (depending on website)

3. The Execution is held at the request of Himmler & nothing to do with Partisans

4. No Courts Martial mentioned

5. Himmler still becomes ill at the site of the Executions.

6. Bach-Zelewski's "remonstrations" over "unjustified Executions" changes to finding a solution for a more Humane Execution Method to spare the pain the German Soldiers suffer as a result, that he had watched the execution of "only" 100. Daily, the men of the Einsatzgruppe were shooting thousands. The strain was too great "telling him that the firing squad were now ruined for life, that they were destined to become either nervous wrecks or ruffians"

7. Himmler then asks Nebe to consider alternative killing methods less stressful than shooting. Nebe at first tries Dynamite with less than perfect results, from Himmler’s visit, the idea of using poison gas arises.

I think I've covered everything., Just done a re-edit of the link, it was so long it fouled the page, just look under Eichmann Transcripts on the Nizkor website for Bach-Zelewski's testimony
Last edited by MrNobody on Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:43 pm)

MrNobody wrote:I think I've covered everything.


Nicely done MrNobody. Very interesting. It's obvious that the hoax spinners have bent the truth regarding Himmler's August visit to Minsk in 1941.

Yet I'll just add one more note to your observations. Following his statement that he continued to protest unjustified executions to Himmler, Dem Bach-Zelewski went on to tell the Israeli court that because of those unjustified executions:

I was instrumental in the demotion of Higher SS and Police Leaders.


Why would the SS demote and shun such high ranking Jew-killers if that was the hopeful end policy of the Third Reich? It simply makes no sense.

Or could it be that the story is bunk? We know the answer. Soon the world will as well.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:27 pm)

First it needs to be said the the 'partisans' (called 'terrorists' today), were subject to legal execution under international law.

Second, the lie that the Germans needed to find alternative killing methods less stressful than shooting since the strain was too great on the men, is absurd in lieu of the ridiculous claim that gassing was the solution and all that those 'gassings' would have entailed.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:47 pm)

Of coarse I did in the end forget a couple of other points, but the best point of all is I used a court Transcript of a witness found on the Nizkor Holocaust website to undermine the Minsk affair on other Holocaust Websites which includes :

Aktion Reinhard Camps :
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/minsk%20ghetto.html

Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team (H.E.A.R.T)
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/himmlerinminsk.html

Bach-Zewelski's Testimony under oath has to be considered as solid since it is backed up by evidence in the form of a Diary & the 1961 Eichmann trial was not the first time he was used as a witness, Nuremberg being the other, it's also noteworthy that he never appeared before any court on charges of War Crimes, I submit because his Diary would have shattered any case bought against him, not because he got a nice plea bargain for being a key witness for the Prosecution.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:12 pm)

Bugger, I did it again,

I also have to add that these 'Holocaust' website only ever state the Author & Book such as Raul Hilberg's "the destruction of the European Jews" as source material, Not even a page number I ask you, what sort of Reference or source material is that?
3 volumes of over 3000 pages & I'm expected to find the relevent section?

Obviously one is expected toy take their word at face value, more smoke & mirrors!
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:16 am)

Two articles from the Times re: the Karl Wolff trial that may be of interest:

July 14, 1964, pg.9

"Himmler Staff Chief on Trial"

The trial began today before the Munich assizes of the former S.S. General Karl Wolff, once chief of staff to Himmler, and one of the most prominent members of the Nazi hierarchy. He is charged with complicity in the deportation of some 300,000 Jews from the Warsaw ghetto to the extermination camps of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.
Wolff's arrest in January, 1962, caused something of a sensation because he was responsible for negotiating the capitulation of all the German forces in Italy behind Hitler's back, and as a result was not
indicted before the international military tribunal in Nuremberg. On the contrary, he appeared in uniform as a witness for the prosecution.(...)
An accessory charge in the 400-page indictment of Wolff's alleged part in the shooting of 100 Jews and partisans at Minsk in the summer of 1941, which he witnessed along with Himmler. On this occassion both he and Himmler allegedly exhorted both officers and men of the extermination squad to carry out criminal orders. Wolff himself once described the scene and said that he wished to avert his gaze from it, in order not to see how "death struck at these wretched people... even Himmler felt ill," he added.
The accused appeared before the court today with an air of complete self-possession, and military strictness, and stood under the whirl of of television cameras and the flash of light bulbs. Asked whether
he pleaded Guilty to the charges, he replied with a faint smile, "No: on no account".

The indictment sums him up as having participated in the "final solution", "in an informative, advisory, representational, and creative" capacity. He had cooperated in it consciously and willingly. The trial is expected to last for some six weeks.


*************************************************************

Oct 1, 1964, p.10

15-year Sentence on S.S. General

Karl Wolff, the former S.S. general, once Himmler's chief of staff and a prominent member of the Nazi hierachy, was today sentenced to 15 years' hard labour at the Munich assizes. He was found Guilty in a trial lasting more than 10 weeks of assisting in the mass murder of Jews in Poland "in at least 300,000 cases" during the last war.(...)
Dr. Emil Mannhardt, the Judge, said: "The accused knew of the murder plans of Hitler and Himmler and assisted in the annihilation of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto." He rejected Wolff's arguments that he did not know about the gas chambers, the use of Einsatzkommandos for mass shootings of Jews or of secret plans for the "final solution of the Jewish question."
At Wolff's intervention, the court decided, special trains were put on from Warsaw to take Jews from the ghetto to Treblinka camp, where an estimated 5,000 to 8,000 Jews were gassed every day. In a letter of thanks to the Reich Ministry of Transport, Wolff had afterwards expressed his "delight" that now so many "sons of the chosen people" were going daily to the camp.
Wolff had accompanied Himmler to Auschwitz when it was being constructed, and in August, 1941, attended a mass shooting of Jews in Minsk. Wolff's excuse that he believed only partisans and saboteurs were shot was "incredible", the Judge said. The court also considered that Wolff had witnessed the torturing of concentration camp prisoners in pressure chambers.

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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:16 pm)

In reply to MrNobody, it seems unlikely that a Nuremberg prisoner would have power to threaten his captors with a diary merely because it was not incriminating. Apparently a typed copy of the diary was later lodged by B-Z in the Bundesarchiv. It was mentioned during the Irving trial by Professor Browningl, who deemed it “doctored and sanitized” because it contains no evidence of genocide. A deal is the only explanation why BZ was not handed over to the Poles, who would have dearly liked to hang him.

It would be interesting to compile a list of those who provided the Allies with evidence of crimes that could not have occurred without their complicity but who yet escaped appropriate punishment by the Allied military courts

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:24 pm)

nathan wrote:In reply to MrNobody, it seems unlikely that a Nuremberg prisoner would have power to threaten his captors with a diary merely because it was not incriminating.

Now, I didn't say "threaten", He was the chief of Anti-Partisan forces for Belarus & Russia & later the overall commander of all forces during the Warsaw Uprising including the thugs of Dirlewanger's Brigade, considering the overall break down of Troops available for combat of which maybe half were dedicated Infantry it's not surprising that Bach-Zelewski wouldn't be indicted for any alleged war crimes in Warsaw itself, since in no way would have have had a choice in the types of reinforcements available & where are the claims for any Atrocities his Anti partisan forces carried out in the East??
nathan wrote:Apparently a typed copy of the diary was later lodged by B-Z in the Bundesarchiv. It was mentioned during the Irving trial by Professor Browningl, who deemed it “doctored and sanitized” because it contains no evidence of genocide.

Since He participated in both the Nuremberg & Eichmann trials & since he accessed his Diary (not a typed copy) to support his testimony a copy of the Diary would have been submitted as an article of evidence for the Prosecution in both cases.

Besides, is it wrong to submit a typed copy to an archive if your intent is to to retain the original for yourself?
Because it is typed does that necessarily indicate that the copy is "doctored or Sanitized"

Professor Brownings statement is exceptionally blasé considering he was unable to compare the original with the Bundesarchiv copy.

In fact that statement is on a par with the entire Holocaust narrative , "there is no evidence of the Holocaust because the Germans covered it up & Destroyed it all, But we know it happened because there were 6,000,000 victims!!!"

nathan wrote:A deal is the only explanation why BZ was not handed over to the Poles, who would have dearly liked to hang him.


Not withstanding their embarrassment at having to hang someone who accorded the rights of Prisoners of War to the Polish Home Army.
Maybe they didn't want to look too deep.

Don't take any of this too personally, we'll never know the full story & never know the minds of men.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:47 pm)

MrNobody said:
In fact that statement is on a par with the entire Holocaust narrative , "there is no evidence of the Holocaust because the Germans covered it up & Destroyed it all, But we know it happened because there were 6,000,000 victims!!!"

They claim 'the holocaust is the most documented event in history' while they claim the Germans hid the evidence. They 'know it happened' because being judeo-supremacists, they are able to lie with a straight face; knowing that they benefit from it, and the naive believe it.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4578

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:41 pm)

nathan wrote:It would be interesting to compile a list of those who provided the Allies with evidence of crimes that could not have occurred without their complicity but who yet escaped appropriate punishment by the Allied military courts


It would be interesting to compile a list of all the allied war criminals, all the GULag guards and all the NKVD, Cheka and Stasi people who never even got close to being prosecuted, because their side won the war.

Btw are there any protocols from the Wolff trial or was it conducted like all the others, without one being taken (remember the Auschwitz trial proceedings has been preserved only because someone decided to audiotape it)?

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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:15 pm)

Bach-Lewinski supplied false testimony at IMT. Though Himmler’s plenipotentiary for counter-insurgency, he was never prosecuted for war crimes. A promise of immunity would explain these two facts. The other hypothesis explains only one. In any case I suggest that the Polish National Tribunal would have taken a view at least as stern as that of Professor Browning, both of ZB’s diary and of his few good deeds.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:45 pm)

nathan wrote:Bach-Lewinski supplied false testimony at IMT.


You got the right person there? Bach-Zelewski

Problem is, his Diary does not support the allegations made against Himmler
The killings on August 17 simply do not tally with the official story.

If the Diary was really "Doctored" & "Sanitized", to be used as evidence to support testimony, then it would reflect precisely the allegations.

If you're going to alter the Diary anyway why not make it 100 Jews shot on August 15 & still have your little "Oh I was outraged, I protested to Himmler, blah, blah, blah.

As you said earlier, it was Professor Browning's opinion that the Diary was "Doctored" & "Sanitized", because it contains no evidence of Genocide.
What the hell sort of screwy logic is that, well it's "Holocaustianity" logic
it's the same screwy logic as used against Robert Faurisson
"It must not be asked how, technically, such a mass-murder was possible. It was technically possible, since it happened"


There is no evidence that 100 Jews were executed because Himmler asked for a demonstration, there is however evidence of 20 to 30 Partisans being Tried & Executed & even the reason, the assassination of an SS General on an estate on July 31 , end of story.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:29 am)

The presence of Lewinski’s moniker is easily explained by my habitual stupidity.

Even without having seen it I am confident that B-Z’s diary, whether copy or original, contains nothing to support claims of a genocidal massacre at Minsk or elsewhere; otherwise it would been entered as an exhibit. It would be famous. I am as confident that a Polish tribunal could, like Professor Browning, explain such omissions very easily, and to their own unembarrassed satisfaction.

The disputed question here is why B-Z was not handed over to them.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:54 pm)

1. Bach-Zelewski purges himself on the stand to "cut a deal" so as not to be handed to the Poles.
2. Bach-Zelewski's Diary is Fraudulent because it contains no references to the alleged "Holocaust".
3.The Holocaust industry uses Bach-Zelewski's False Testimony & Fraudulent Diary to substantiate their claims of a massacre of 100 Jews in Minsk & God knows what else.

This sort of logic is enormously absurd in the extreme.

What does that say about the Official Holocaust Narrative or the character of those promoting it?

Anyone still believing in the Official Holocaust Narrative would likely be a candidate for a Leadership role on a "Crop Circle & Alien Abduction Forum"

Anyone interested in buying a tinfoil hat?, makes an excellent device for denying Alien mind Control intrusions. :twisted:
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:29 pm)

There are two questions. One question is why B-Z was never charged with a war crime. The second question is when his twenty or thirty partisans shot around the 17 August became magnified into 100 or 120 Jews shot on the 15 August.

Most respectable historians believe that BZ was offered leniency in exchange merely for telling the truth. My own suspicion is that he got it in exchange for giving false – or, better, distorted - testimony which would of course command an even higher reward. He served the prosecution by suggesting that Himmler at Wewelsburg demanded (rather than merely prophesied) the deaths of millions of Slavs and Jews; and by stating categorically that the main business of the Einsatzgruppen was not anti-partisan warfare but the extermination of Jews, Gypsies and commissars. The mention of Gypsies was particularly serviceable, since they can be less easily conflated with partisans. I notice that in the written answers submitted (from abroad) to the Eichmann trial in May 1961 he says “I did not know that the Operation Units were also used to exterminate Gypsies’.

Another explanation is that even a Communist tribunal could not find or produce enough evidence of war crimes to convict the man who crushed the Warsaw uprising, assuming that Nuremberg’s NMT tribunals were too fair to try. Slender facts in favour of this view are that BZ once had someone shot for war crimes, and that we know of no evidence that the Poles did actually ask for him.

MrN deserves praise for raising the second question.

According to Browning, Zelewski gave the Bundesarchiv two of his diary books. The second was in the original version. The first volume was not, but was retyped, and according to Browning the Bundesarchiv “said we cannot certify this as a copy of the original because they didn't get the original so they alert the reader to the fact that it is not the original diary book of the man, so you can indeed be alerted to the fact that it...possibly had been changed."

Even supposing that the passage in question was re-typed, or never
archived, the question remains: when did a firing squad of partisans become a massacre of innocents? It cannot be honestly sourced to BZ. One villain of the piece may be Professor Richard Evans, who footnotes this claim to Himmler’s desk diary of 15 August. I suspect it will lead back merely to one of Himmler’s commentators.

http://www.hdot.org/trial/defense/evans/530cxivB

New readers might begin here:

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/4/3/Weber382f.html ( mark weber on B-Z)

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-07-46.htm (B-Z testimony at IMT)


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