Joachim Neander / 'human soap'

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2362
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Joachim Neander / 'human soap'

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:48 pm)

[This thread was split from a previous one in which I asked Joachim Neander to relax his language. That thread digressed to the topic of the alleged 'human soap'. Here is that digression. M1]
-----------------------------------------------------

If it's the real Joachim Neander that would be impressive that he came on here.

He's the one who put the final end to any lingering questions about the Jewish soap myth via an article he wrote.

"The Danzig Soap Case: Facts and Legends around 'Professor Spanner' and the Danzig Anatomic Institute, 1944-1945," in: GSR (German Studies Review?) 29:1 (Feb. 2006), 63-86.

Of course with forums you never know if it's the real guy.

User avatar
jnovitz
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:51 am)

He may have claimed to put the soap myth to rest but he couldnt.

Simply he lacks a paradigm that can account for Polish scientists claiming to have found an original human fat soap bar in archives of the Hague (how it got there is unknown) and detected the presence of human fat.

His thesis is basically it was all one big misunderstanding....of course it want, it was a deliberately manufactured hoax.

So having elaborated on his gigantic misunderstanding thesis, the poles shot him to pieces by claiming to have detected human remains in a soap bar.

He is too intellectually afraid to draw the obvious conclusion which is either
A. Germans manufactured human fat soap or
B. There is political power structure detected to keeping WW2 atrocity myths alive.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2362
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:19 pm)

Hey Jnovitz,

I think Neander's paper is good scholarly work. He points out that the bodies at the institute weren't likely even Jews. He points out that there was a soap shortage, and that the process of using a cadaver for learning leaves a material which can be made into soap, and thus why not make it into soap than throwing it away, since hygenically it was needed at the institute.

I hope Neander hasn't left this forum. He's a believer and it would be great to have him posting here.

joachim neander
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:39 pm

Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:26 pm)

Thank you, Carto!

The Polish "revelations" about Professor Spanner's soap, loudly presented to the media a year ago, were nothing but a big soap bubble. A Warsaw professor of chemistry had analyzed some of the "unfinished soap" that Colonel Smirnov (I must heavily apologize that I confused him, in my paper in German Studies Review, with his superior, General Rudenko) had presented at Nuremberg (he'd got it from The Hague), and he found some fatty acids in it that are characteristic for human fat. Well, I never doubted that in Spanner's laboratory human soap was made (Spanner himself admitted this before the Hamburg police), but - and that is IMO the crucial point: it was made from preparation grease, a mixture of fat, soap and maybe other impurities, which originates as a by-product in the process of chemical maceration of body parts with alkali hydroxides. Under normal circumstances, this grease is thrown into the garbage bin (or burnt in an incinerator) together with other preparation waste. As the Polish investigation body also clearly stated, no person (Jew or non-Jew) was killed for soap-making in Danzig.

Now in Spanner's lab the grease was refined and used for simple cleaning purposes. Had Spanner's people it thrown away, nobody would have cared two hoots about Danzig soap.

The Warsaw professor had analyzed, in addition, a piece of brown soap that the investigation authority had received from someone who himself had it got from another one (no more alive) who had said that he had found it in the Medical Academy after the capture of Danzig by the Soviets. This piece of soap showed similar fatty acid characteristics as the Nuremberg soap. This, the professor concluded, makes it probable that the brown soap was also made from human fat. He, as a serious scientist, said, however, that he cannot rule out that it was made from the fat of an animal that was fed with similar food as men eat, e.g a pig. But he added that this were not very probable, because pig fat in wartime was too precious for making soap from it.

He obviously did not know that in wartime all German households had to collect bones left over from cooking, for making soap and/or glue. So it is also possible that the brown soap was not made from human, but from pig fat. But this cannot be decided and must be left open. What is more, it was - and could not be - proven that the piece of brown soap that he analyzed was manufactured in Spanner's lab. The fact that it purportedly was found on the premises of the Medical Academy is no proof.

As further incriminating Spanner the professor saw the fact that the brown soap contained some inorganic material (he did not analyze it - the media report saying that it was Kaolin, is conjured up) for chafing. If the brown soap was not made in Spanner's lab, it does not contribute to the issue and can be ignored. If, however, the brown soap came from Spanner's lab, we have, in principle, also nothing new. Those who have read my article know that I concluded from the sources that the soap used for cleaning had undergone some refining and conditioning. It would, indeed, be good to know exactly what the inorganic material is. An X-ray crystallography would easily have given the answer. The result could give a hint to answer the question, whether the brown soap was produced in Spanner's lab or in a soap factory, which in turn would exclude its human origin.

If you are interested in more details, please go to the Holocaust Controversies blog: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com In the upper left corner you find a window “search blog.” Insert “spanner” and “soap”, and you will be directed to two threads where I discussed the matter in more detail.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9911
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:54 pm)

Joachim Neander said:
Well, I never doubted that in Spanner's laboratory human soap was made (Spanner himself admitted this before the Hamburg police) ...

But why? Your own information refutes what you claim.

Do you have the verbatim "Hamburg police" transcripts? I doubt it.
A Warsaw professor of chemistry had analyzed some of the "unfinished soap" that Colonel Smirnov (I must heavily apologize that I confused him, in my paper in German Studies Review, with his superior, General Rudenko) had presented at Nuremberg (he'd got it from The Hague), and he found some fatty acids in it that are characteristic for human fat.

A Warsaw Professor? Who would that be?
Where is the analysis?
Where is this so called 'human soap' today?

Colonel Smirnov? The notorious communist liar/propagandist?
i.e.:
Outlandish Treblinka evidence from Nuremberg - transcript.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2103

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2362
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:30 am)

Hey Joachim Neander,

Nice explanation. Before your article came out, even academics were still pushing mild versions of the soap myth, like Harold Marcuse at UC Santa Barbara. He changed his website after your article came out, and now he references your article.

Glad you're posting here, and look forward to seeing more posts.


Hey Hannover,

I think you're misunderstanding Joachim Neander. He states that Spanner made soap from bodies.

But that's not a terrible thing; its not even a bad thing. And the bodies weren't even Jews, the people weren't killed for soap. It was a byproduct that, rather than throwing it away, was made into much needed soap for cleaning in the lab itself.

That's why Spanner didn't mind admitting it to the Hamburg police, as Neander mentions.

Practically everyone would have made soap in those circumstances. I would have.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9911
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:47 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Hey Hannover,

I think you're misunderstanding Joachim Neander. He states that Spanner made soap from bodies.

But that's not a terrible thing; its not even a bad thing. And the bodies weren't even Jews, the people weren't killed for soap. It was a byproduct that, rather than throwing it away, was made into much needed soap for cleaning in the lab itself.

That's why Spanner didn't mind admitting it to the Hamburg police, as Neander mentions.

Practically everyone would have made soap in those circumstances. I would have.

No, I'm not misunderstanding Joachim Neander. Regardless of the Jews/not Jews, murdered/not murdered, I see his effort as a feeble attempt to cover the fake 'human soap' presented at Nuremberg by the communists. Please refer to the points I made. In spite of the attempted spin, there is a zero proof for 'human soap'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

MrNobody
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:54 am

Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:39 pm)

I posses a bar of wartime soap, the outer wax paper wrapper is marked :
,,Hellada''
Seifenfabrik Kadlec & Söhne
Prague-Michle

on the back is
SS Packung

One thing is for sure & it's backed up in The German Home Front 1939-45 by Terry Charmers is the fact that bees wax makes up at least 80% of the Soaps content

at least I think it's in that particular book.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

joachim neander
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:39 pm

Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:25 pm)

To "Hannover":

The "soap" that the Soviets presented at Nuremberg was not "a fake." The material was found in Spanner's lab, a fact which is documented by the protocols of the investigation commissions, and it was indeed something like soap. Smirnov presented two varieties": "unfinished soap" and "finished soap." As far as I interpret the sources, the "unfinished soap" was the whole by-product of maceration of human body parts, whereas the "finished soap" was made from the "unfinished soap" by some refining and/or conditioning.

Both kinds of "human soap" were made at the Danzig Medical School. I would today not even exclude that Spanner's people threw some fatty tissue together with the body parts - whole limbs and/or plastinated inner organs - from which preparations should be made, into the autoclaves that were used for maceration, to increase the soap output. But that is mere speculation, though it makes sense. And BTW also would not have been "a crime."

Prof. Stolyhwo made the analyses of the soap specimens on demand of the Polish investigation body, the Gdansk branch of the Main Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against the Polish People, since 1999 a department of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN). For IPN, vide my first thread at Holocaust Controversies. Stolyhwo has a chair in chemistry at the Warsaw Agricultural College, and he is an internationally renowned expert in fat chemistry and metabolism.

I have a copy of the chromatographic analysis. A friend of mine wrote a letter to prof. Stolyhwo and asked about details of his research in the Danzig soap case, and this friend sent me a copy of the answer. I hold a minor in chemistry and physics and feel to be able to assess a laboratory report. It is state-of-the-art. My criticism - as already expressed in my previous post - goes toward the interpretation, not the scientific work that Stolyhwo did.

Stolyhwo analyzed also several pieces of RIF soap, which citizens had given to the IPN as alleged "proof" of Nazi soap-making from human bodies. They showed a clearly different spectrum, e.g. relating to fish fat. So both Stolyhwo and the IPN stated publicly that the famous RIF soap was not made from human fat. Please remember that the wartime rumors (and propaganda) about human soap referred solely to the RIF soap. Before May 1945 nobody outside the Danzig Medical School knew about the soap from Spanner's lab, and before March/April 1944 (when the first anatomic preparations by alkali maceration were made there), even rumors could not have sneaked out.

I would like to ask you, "Hannover," to read my paper in GSR and also a - German language - publication in FABULA - Journal of Folktale Studies - no. 3/4, 2005, pp. 241-256: "Seife aus Judenfett." I am sure that after reading you will be able to answer many of your questions by yourself. But feel yourself free, of course, to ask precise questions. I will try to answer them.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9911
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:14 pm)

The material was found in Spanner's lab, a fact which is documented by the protocols of the investigation commissions, and it was indeed something like soap. Smirnov presented two varieties": "unfinished soap" and "finished soap." As far as I interpret the sources, the "unfinished soap" was the whole by-product of maceration of human body parts, whereas the "finished soap" was made from the "unfinished soap" by some refining and/or conditioning.

Oh really? Why should anyone believe it was "documented by the protocols of the [communist] investigation commissions"? Because you say so?

Prof. Stolyhwo made the analyses of the soap specimens on demand of the Polish investigation body, the Gdansk branch of the Main Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against the Polish People, since 1999 a department of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN)

Oh please, where's the soap for confirmation?
Why hasn't an open and public analysis been announced before hand and then published?
This commission was a communist propaganda organ that has no credibility whatsoever.
This is the sort of commission that claimed steam chambers and endless laughable claims? And who was on this 'commission'? Should we talk about what else they claim? Welcome to the forum.

The IPN? Merely an appeal to some authority which has a vested interest in pumping up the propaganda; gotta keep that cash flowing. It's no different than citing Yad Vashem as a source for 'gas chambers'. It does nothing to bolster the claim. Garbage in, garbage out.

Then we have the notorious Smirnov involved, not the least bit credible, as I have demonstrated.

previously you said:
... he cannot rule out that it was made from the fat of an animal that was fed with similar food as men eat, e.g a pig. But he added that this were not very probable, because pig fat in wartime was too precious for making soap from it.

Why not make soap from pig fat? A butchered pig too valuable? Right.


You are simply citing sources and then making guesses:
As far as I interpret the sources, the "unfinished soap" was the whole by-product of maceration of human body parts, whereas the "finished soap" was made from the "unfinished soap" by some refining and/or conditioning.

I would today not even exclude that Spanner's people threw some fatty tissue together with the body parts - whole limbs and/or plastinated inner organs - from which preparations should be made, into the autoclaves that were used for maceration, to increase the soap output. But that is mere speculation, though it makes sense ...

It makes sense only in an attempt to bolster the Nuremberg show trials, knowing that removing one card results in the fall of a house made of cards.

The whole thing has the stench of the human skin lampshades and shrunken heads canard, also presented at the Nuremberg Show Trials

for more viewpoints, see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3714

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9911
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:55 pm)

Here's a nice demolition of one of those 'commisions' that Mr Neander puts so much faith in. "The Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland". Enjoy.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1911

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Kiwichap
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:54 pm
Location: New Zealand

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:30 pm)

Apparently some chap followed the recipe and only got an upset wife.

A Report on the Mazur Statement (Nuremberg Document USSR-197)

by Robert Frenz
http://www.historiography-project.org/misc/frenzsoap.html

The Spanner Recipe

This recipe occurs in the Mazur document on page D, first paragraph. As written, it is problematic to follow:

Lines 1 and 2: Does one add 500 or 1000 grams of soda?

Line 5: A handful of soda is about 50 grams. Why so little in proportion? Soda is caustic. Does one use his bare hands?

Line 7: How does one know the soap is "finished?" Was the soap liquid so that it might be "poured?"

This recipe appears to be the hot process. I followed this recipe as best as I could and in proportion on a smaller scale. As mentioned in this report human fat and lard are quite similar so I necessarily used lard. I failed to produce other than a trace amount of soap.

On another occasion, I again followed this recipe to no avail. As written and as followed by myself, this recipe has no value. I attempted a vigorous boiling during the second stage, but this merely filled the air with caustic fumes and caused considerable consternation on the part of my wife when she surveyed the condition of the kitchen range. ..]
[...]
It is my belief that the testimony in regard to the making of soap from corpses is false.

Reviving the soap story; how ghastly is that? Someone's runnin outta gas.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

User avatar
Kiwichap
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:54 pm
Location: New Zealand

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:10 am)

CCS: I think you're misunderstanding Joachim Neander. He states that Spanner made soap from bodies. But that's not a terrible thing; its not even a bad thing. And the bodies weren't even Jews, the people weren't killed for soap. It was a byproduct that, rather than throwing it away, was made into much needed soap for cleaning in the lab itself.[...] Practically everyone would have made soap in those circumstances. I would have.

Ha ha ha. OK CCS; lets go from the practical angle.

Hermann, Fritz and Sigmund turn up for work at the Danzig Human Soap Factory at 7:30 Monday morning. Sigmunds job is to strip the fat off the latest victim. There he is, with his big carving knife, slicing down a big juicy fatty bit off a bone from the corpse. Fritz is there with his big hook to jag the fatty lump into the big boiling fuming cauldren of fatty soapy gunge. Hermann has a big stick and he mumbles, 'hubble bubble toil an trouble' as he stirs the abominable concoction. Just another days work for normal Germans at the human soap factory. Ha ha ha.

Liars always go overboard. They have to. If someone said they boiled down human bones to make a gluey soap, that would have more credence. But liars, they always go overboard; they have to.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

User avatar
jnovitz
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:27 pm)

I have a copy of the chromatographic analysis. A friend of mine wrote a letter to prof. Stolyhwo and asked about details of his research in the Danzig soap case, and this friend sent me a copy of the answer. I hold a minor in chemistry and physics and feel to be able to assess a laboratory report. It is state-of-the-art.


Perhaps you would like to provide a copy to CODOH?

I also have qualifications (plural) in Biochemistry and would be interested even if you can not provide his analysis, if you could give a description of the exact lipid signature he used to differentiate between other mammals?

The second issue is the chain of custody. According to the news article from the Auschwitz Museum the specimen was said to be obtained from the Hague. However none of the other Greulpropaganda, human skin book covers, lampshades and shrunken heads, has ended up in the Hague.

I am quite prepared to accept that the Polish scientist's analysis is correct (in fact I think that is highly likely) that does not prove that he was testing something from Prof Spanner's lab.

For example I don't expect he even took the basic precaution of C14 and C13 testing (C14 for normal carbon dating and C13 to determine pre or post atmospheric atomic testing).

That should have been his first step. As a forensic investigation his first question should be "are we dealing with something from 1944/45?

User avatar
jnovitz
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:33 pm)

Hey Jnovitz,

I think Neander's paper is good scholarly work


Carlo, I have to disagree.

Neander neglected entirely, presumably because it disproved his thesis, the earliest and most important testimony regarding human soap and that is the account of The Very Reverend Hewlett Johnson, the Red Dean of Canterbury.

Dr Hewlett Johnson was given a tour of Poland in March 1945. The Soviets took him to only two places - presumably the two places that best showed off their Greul propaganda.


The two places they had ready in March 1945 was Auschwitz (but not Birkenau) and the 2nd was.....
Warsaw Ghetto? No.
Treblinka? No.
Belzec? No.

It was the Danzig Anatomical institute where human soap was on prominent display along with flayed tattooed human skin and other gruesome oddities.

Dr Hewlett Johnson gave a very detailed and precise account...exactly the account that was wished for by the Communist authorities.

To totally ignore and conceal this account is simply academic fraud.

There is no other term for it.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests