Joachim Neander / 'human soap'

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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:28 pm)

Hi Kiwichap,

Your comical characterization of the Danzig Institute just shows you haven't read Neander's article.

Jnovitz writes
The two places they had ready in March 1945 was Auschwitz (but not Birkenau) and the 2nd was.....
Warsaw Ghetto? No.
Treblinka? No.
Belzec? No.

Your three options above no longer existed at that time.
Last edited by Carto's Cutlass Supreme on Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:31 pm)

jnovitz:
The second issue is the chain of custody. According to the news article from the Auschwitz Museum the specimen was said to be obtained from the Hague. However none of the other Greulpropaganda, human skin book covers, lampshades and shrunken heads, has ended up in the Hague.

Perhaps Neander can provide a verifiable Hague catalog number for this 'human soap'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:43 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Hi Kiwichap,

Your comical characterization of the Danzig Institute just shows you haven't read Neander's article.

Jnovitz writes
The two places they had ready in March 1945 was Auschwitz (but not Birkenau) and the 2nd was.....
Warsaw Ghetto? No.
Treblinka? No.
Belzec? No.

Your three options above no longer existed at that time.

Please explain what is 'comical'. Didn't The Red Deacon of Canterbury, Hewlett Johnson, keep a diary?

The locations of the Warsaw Ghetto, Treblinka, Belzec did/do exist. And according the standard storyline that's good enough as it's claimed they still provide proof for the absurd claims.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:27 pm)

To "Hannover":

I can understand that you don't like communists. But if someone does scholarly work, he cannot sweepingly discredit everything that was documented, reported or otherwise found out by an investigation commission, only because the commission members were communists/nazis/antisemites/Jews etc.. If he does so, he commits a serious logical error: the "argumentum ad hominem" fallacy. Though widely used in politics, in the scholarly community he disqualifies himself by its use. So please say clearly if you are interested in a scholarly discourse, or if you want to discuss politics. In the latter field I don’t feel competent.

Let me come back to the Danzig soap. As I already wrote in my GSR article, both “Danzig soap believers” and “Danzig soap deniers” – let me use these terms for a moment – seem to have a serious problem: neither of them knows, how work is done in an Anatomic Institute (or was done in the 1940s in Germany), and neither of them has knowledge in soap chemistry. I’ve studied both in the 1950s and 1960s, and, what is more, have studied dozens of documents relating to the case in German, English, Russian, and Polish in the last five years. I’m convinced that I can pass judgment in this case.

Let me sum up the major facts concerning Nuremberg and the Danzig soap for you:
1) Everywhere where human or animal body parts are macerated with alkali hydroxides, the fat content reacts with the latter, and soap originates. That is simple chemistry and holds independent from the researcher’s nationality or political views.
2) In Spanner’s laboratory this soap was not thrown away, but collected. Since nobody saw “a crime” in it – and let me repeat: the British in 1946, the Germans in 1947, and also the Polish investigation authorities in 2006 unanimously stated that it was NOT a crime – Spanner’s people did not destroy the soap stocks, when Spanner and the other scientists left Danzig at the end of January 1945.
3) Small wonder, therefore, that the Polish and Russian investigation commissions of May 1945 found human soap in Spanner’s laboratory. They, however, were convinced to have detected a crime, and therefore they secured specimens of this soap as “evidence.” Some were analyzed at the Institute for Forensic Medicine at Krakow (result: “yes, it was soap”), some were produced as evidence for the prosecution at Nuremberg and went, after the trial, into the archives at The Hague.

I do not know how often I must repeat that not the things that were found at Spanner’s laboratory – with the important exception of the “recipe,” which IMO most probably is a fake, vide my GSR article – pose the problem, but their interpretation. The 1945 Polish and Soviet commissions as well as the prosecution at Nuremberg interpreted their findings erroneously, led by an anti-German bias, understandable at that time. The same holds for the interpretation given by the head of the IPN in the media presentation and especially by IPN’s press release for Western media (vide my threads in Holocaust Controversies), a behavior that is only explicable by the wave of anti-German sentiment stirred up by the right-wing Polish government (luckily, for Poland, voted out of office two weeks ago) and their supporters in the media. The final report written by the prosecutor, who did the work, sounds differently (though it is also flawed in many aspects).

If you, “Hannover,” want to topple the Nuremberg trial, you should look for a better lever. The Danzig soap is too fragile for this job. BTW, I of course have long since read the thread on CODOH to which you linked. But I didn’t find anything new for me in it.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:15 pm)

joachim neander: I can understand that you don't like communists. But if someone does scholarly work, he cannot sweepingly discredit everything that was documented, reported or otherwise found out by an investigation commission, only because the commission members were communists/nazis/antisemites/Jews etc..

joachim neander, you left off the word; LIARS! Lets put it in huh?

I can understand that you don't like communists. But if someone does scholarly work, he cannot sweepingly discredit everything that was documented, reported or otherwise found out by an investigation commission, only because the commission members were liars etc..

OH yeah, we can discredit EVERYTHING, if those telling the story are already proven liars.

Polish and Russian investigation commissions of May 1945 found human soap in Spanner’s laboratory.

Have the same folk ever lied before? Ya just gotta laugh.

In our courts, you lie, you're gone.
Thats the way we do things around here.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:18 pm)

Again, Neander, provide a verifiable Hague catalog number for this 'human soap'. You dodged this.

You bet I think the same communists that presented 'shrunken heads' and 'human skin lampshades' are lying about finding 'human soap'. Where are those, Neander? You obviously accept them as fact.

Why should anyone believe that human soap was found at Spanner's lab. when those making that claim are known charlatans? It's a matter of credibility and verifiability. Your position has neither.

Your curious belief in believability of "The Main Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland".see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1911
It's your problem and certainly adds no credibility to your position that you believe such absurdities such as:
- vol. 1, p.49-50 - at Auschwitz ,prisoners were forced to sing vulgar German songs such as ‘O du mein Bubikopf’ or ‘Im lager Auschwitz war ich zwar so manchen Monat so manches Jahr’. Jews were forced to sing ‘O du mein Jerusalem’. The choir was often directed by a Catholic priest. Any that couldn’t speak German or sing well were ordered to sing in a crouched or lying position and then were beaten while singing. After singing they were trained in gymnastics. They were also ordered to climb trees, if the tree broke, they were beaten.

- vol. 1, p.54 - a son was ordered to drown his own father after the father had fallen in a ditch, the son was then ordered drown by other Jews in the same ditch

- vol. 1, p.55 - Soviet prisoner were forced to do gymnastics, in the nude

- vol. 1, p.58 - prisoner were given salads to induce thirst, a corpse was found holding the liver of a dead companion...he died while devouring the liver

- vol. 1, p.60. A giant Jew was kept especially for killing people...he prowled XI block looking for victims


and ... Do you have the verbatim "Hamburg police" transcripts? Nope. You dodged yet again.

I also note your apparent acceptance Smirnov's credibility in spite of the verbatim Nuremberg transcript I posted which is, utterly irrational and laughable.
Outlandish Treblinka evidence from Nuremberg - transcript.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2103

And we know that Smirnov promoted the '4,000,000 killed at Auschwitz' at Nuremberg during the court session on February 19, 1946.

Ah yes, more on your Colonel Smirnov, who was deeply involved in the Katyn massacre cover-up.
http://www.cwporter.com/k1.htm
'WAR CRIMES TRIALS KATYN:
How the Soviets Manufactured War Crime Documents for the Nuremberg Court '

And you dodged:
A Warsaw Professor? Who would that be?
Where is the analysis?
Where is this so called 'human soap' today?


I also asked, and you dodged:
Why hasn't an open and public analysis been announced before hand and then published?
This is the sort of commission that claimed steam chambers and endless laughable claims?
And who was on this 'commission'?
Should we talk about what else they claimed?


Here's more for you, Neander:

http://www.cwporter.com/gussr197.htm
'Graphics of Document USSR-197
( "Human-soap confession" )
http://www.cwporter.com/mazur.htm
'TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT USSR-197, CONFESSION OF HUMAN SOAP MAKER SIGMUND MAZER'

Stop dodging, Neander.

I challenge you to start any thread you wish about any element you find credible concerning the claimed 'gas chambers & 6M (12M grand total)'. We're waiting.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:52 am)

3) Small wonder, therefore, that the Polish and Russian investigation commissions of May 1945 found human soap in Spanner’s laboratory. They, however, were convinced to have detected a crime, and therefore they secured specimens of this soap as “evidence.” Some were analyzed at the Institute for Forensic Medicine at Krakow (result: “yes, it was soap”), some were produced as evidence for the prosecution at Nuremberg and went, after the trial, into the archives at The Hague.


Well I have already pointed out that your scholarship was defective and that the Soviets were proudly displaying the Danzig Soap Factory in March 1945 to selected dignitaries. So the May 1945 investigative commission were already investigating a Greulpropaganda site with international exposure. For fairly obvious reasons you ignore this.

If I may refer to this article

http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/new/index.p ... EN&id=1140

Investigators tracked down some of the soap produced by Spanner. Samples had been used as evidence of Nazi war crimes between November 1945 and October 1946, during the Nuremberg trials. A jar containing the soap is stored, along with the rest of the Nuremberg trial documentation, in the archive of the International Court of Justice in The Hague.


But not shrunken heads, tattooed skin, human lampshades, which all were returned to those who provided them to the tribunal - and mostly ended up in America.

However, Stołyhwo's expert analysis of the soap sample from the archive of the International Court of Justice in The Hague showed that kaolin had been added. This abrasive ingredient made the soap suitable for utility purposes.


Kaolin is not a local product, but rather an imported fine clay. I cant say it wouldnt be available in Danzig 1944 but it suggests rather more effort that your minimising attempts at defending orthodoxy suggests.

However the issue now is not your defective scholarship.

You say you are qualified to judge the scientific aspects of the report as you have taken some subjects in chemistry. You also claim to have read the analysis.

Could you please describe the method that was used to distinguish human fat from the fat of horses, cattle, sheep etc.

I am assuming that the investigators say there is a distinctive composition of different fatty acids. As you say you have qualifications in this regard you should have no difficulty and presenting this specific information here.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:15 am)

There are so many accusations from the "Soap Deniers'" side that I cannot deal with them in one reply.
Let me make some principal remarks.
1) A historian has to take all sources seriously, even the most dubious ones (they may contain "a nugget of gold"), has to compare them, to sift the wheat from the chaff, and eventually make an evaluation. That's a time-consuming process, and students of history have to learn their business (including the study of a lot of auxiliary disciplines) in one of the longest lasting courses of study. Isn't it strange that there is only one known "Revisionist" who holds a degree in history: Mark Weber?
2) Historians are neither prosecutors nor judges. The motto "Once a liar, always a liar" maybe used in court and in politics, but does not apply to historical research. (See point 1 above.)
3) I received the results of Stolyhwo's research via a copy of a private letter that he wrote to a friend of mine. AFAIK Stolyhwo has not yet published his findings. I hope you are acquainted with customs in scholarship and will understand that I cannot publish his results. It would not violate the unwritten code of scholarship, but also privacy.
4) I feel that many of you do not understand that it does not matter what lies in The Hague archives or not, what Stolyhwo analyzed or not: soap originated at Spanner's lab as a by-product of making anatomical preparations, it was collected and used within the institute. Period.
5) That the Danzig soap was used in Soviet and Polish anti-German propaganda as of May 1945, is also an undisputed fact. And it is also legitimate to denounce this. But if you will be taken seriously outside your own circles, you should not base your argument on an attempt at denying the existence of the soap - otherwise you must deny the laws of chemistry - but on the biased interpretation of the findings at Spanner's laboratory by Soviet and Polish institutions.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:20 am)

Are you sure that the Rev. Johnson (BTW one of the most infamous commie fellow travelers at the time) was in Danzig in MARCH 1945? According to all sources known to me, Danzig was captured by the Red Army on March 30, 1945. Please check your source.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:30 am)

Neander, you said:
But if you will be taken seriously outside your own circles, you should not base your argument on an attempt at denying the existence of the soap - otherwise you must deny the laws of chemistry - but on the biased interpretation of the findings at Spanner's laboratory by Soviet and Polish institutions.

No, if you're to be taken seriously in ANY circle you will stop dodging the points and questions put to you. You have no answers for these specifics which makes you're entire position unmanageable. You simply resort to reciting hearsay communist propaganda which when challenged directly is shown to be, well, laughable propaganda. You have nothing.

you said:
Isn't it strange that there is only one known "Revisionist" who holds a degree in history: Mark Weber?

Is IT strange that Raoul Hilberg has NO degree in history. And I dare say you could not come close to refuting master chemist Germar Rudolf. I direct you to:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4111
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'

you said:
I received the results of Stolyhwo's research via a copy of a private letter that he wrote to a friend of mine. AFAIK Stolyhwo has not yet published his findings.

So you only received claimed 'results', revealing. We know why he has not published the full 'study'. He doesn't dare.

you said:
I feel that many of you do not understand that it does not matter what lies in The Hague archives or not, what Stolyhwo analyzed or not: soap originated at Spanner's lab as a by-product of making anatomical preparations, it was collected and used within the institute. Period.

You wish. It DOES matter because you claim it's in the Hague and it is not.

I have shown that there is no reason to believe in this laughable 'human soap' because those making the claim that it was found in 'Spanner's lab' are known liars and shysters, and I have shown it. The chain of evidence is not credible in any way. You wish to ignore this, but I will not let you.

Stop dodging my specifics, Neander.

"The soap rumor was prevalent both during and after the war. It may have had its origin in the cadaver factory atrocity story that came out of World War I. The soap rumor was thoroughly investigated after the war and proved to be untrue.

The fact is that the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap."

- Deborah Lipstadt, Nazi Soap Rumor During World War II, Los Angeles Times, May 16, 1981, p II/2


See the contrived documents used at Nuremberg on 'human soap'.
!!! Human Soap - Official Nuremberg Documents !!!
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=676
Yet another example of the Nuremberg fraud.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:09 am)

To recap :
Spanner & his crew bug out in January '45
The Soviets show off their "exhibits" in March '45
that's 2 Months in which to fabricate any evidence they desire, including making their own Human Fat Soap
Not possible?
get real!
If a grade schooler can make Soap from Caustic Soda & Coconut Oil why can't a Soviet Dr? (they still teach that in grade school science right?)
Or is that too technical a process for a Soviet Citizen of the 1940's?

That's just as plausible a hypothesis as the allegations already made against the Germans.

And why are we still arguing over the same Propaganda that was first sighted during WWI?
The claim that Germans used the fat from human corpses to make products was already made by the British during World War I. The Times reported in April 1917 that the Germans were boiling down the bodies of their dead soldiers to make soap and other products.[2] In 1925, the British Foreign Secretary Sir Austen Chamberlain admitted that the "corpse factory" story had been a lie.

The claim resurfaced very early during World War II, so early that it almost certainly was not true

source wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses

same old people, same old LIE, same old problem, they just don't know when to give up & call it a day

Of course the modern day version of these fairy tales is the "Kuwait Incubators story", the $14 Million Dollar Propaganda Lie from PR firm Hill & Knowlton as relayed to the morons of the world by Fifteen-year-old Nijirah al-Sabah, daughter of Saud bin Nasir Al-Sabah Kuwait ambassador to the US testifying before the United States Congress in October 1990.

Me thinks it's time to toss out the book "Art of propaganda", by Sum Joo & get a new one.

Why the Holocaust claims are crumbling & why they will continue to do so.

Simple, for 50 years many of the allegations have hid behind the Iron Curtain & remained inaccessible & unscrutinized by Western Scholars, 1989 the year of Revolutions across the Eastern Block changed all that.

The fall of the Berlin Wall was the first big thud to be heard around the World, the collapse of the Soviet Union & the end of the Cold War in 1991 was the second, how loud the third will be is up to the LIARS, they have a choice, they can come clean & reform or they can continue to collectively weave the strands for their own nooses.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:40 pm)

Hey Joachim Neander,

I'm with you on this. I appreciate your scholarliness and patience in trying to explain your position. I hope you keep posting here, and also start some new topics.

Hey Hannover,

You asked me to explain why I thought Kiwichap's post was comical. Because he described chunks of fat being cut from bodies and then placed on hooks, and that's not at all the process explained by Neander.

I haven't heard of the Hewlett Johnson biography.

The idea of something being mistaken for something else is a major theme of holocaust denial. 'Delousing' mistaken for 'death factory' at Treblinka, for instance.

Samuel Crowell's book "Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes" points out that paranoia and fear are a major part of the holocaust myth.

The soap at Danzig completely fits into the Crowellian "paranoia interpretation" of holocaust stories.

The soap myth had been around for years, so here was a faulty attempt to validate it at the Danzig. Similar to US troops entering Dachau and erroneously fitting what they saw, with what they heard, people walked into the Danzig Institute already knowing what they wanted to see.

But notice that Neander mentions that the recipe is probably a fake. That implies deliberate falsification also.

So as with the whole holocaust myth, we're talking one part deliberate falsification, and one part paranoid interpretation.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:28 am)

Having looked a bit further into this Danzig soapy thing, I don't think it should be in a discussion of the [so called :D:] holocaust. There is nothing there, nothing at all. What is happening here is cloudy innuendo going nowhere.

So what if the Danzig Anatomical Institute had (40) corpses to do with what they wanted. So what if soap was even part of it? The FBI have a place in the USA just scattered with corpses in all states of decay, for their scientists to study. I could tell you some grusome stories from around here.

What about 40 Million aborted babies left in garbage cans outside clinics or gone up in smoke or sold for cosmetics?

The holohoaxers are at the bottom of the barrel. This Danzig thing has nothing to do with the Jewish holohoax.

The human soap factory.
Ya just gotta laugh. :!:
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:56 pm)

Carto CS:
Say what you will and love his 'research', but I listed problem after problem, question after question about it. His conclusions are what I consider to be garbage in, garbage out. Note the lack of specific replies to my very specific points.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:39 pm)

Hey Hannover,

Thanks. I'll try to investigate the points and challenges you made at some point.

Hey Kiwichap:

I think the thread should be on here, because the Danzig institute issue is connected to the larger soap myth which is part of the holocaust.


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