proving Treblinka hair invoice is a fraud

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MrNobody
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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:54 pm)

This might help clarify, cross examination of a "Robert Brill" at the Nuremberg trials
Source :
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-195-08.shtml

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. Did you ever hear the expression "Nominal Waffen SS"?

A. Yes. The expression "Nominal Waffen SS" was used by us for the guards, personnel, and Kommandanturen of the Waffen SS, inasmuch as these Kommandanturen were in the Waffen SS at all. Within the Waffen SS, as I already explained on the regulation for replacement, we had the Waffen SS proper, that is, the troops; and then on the economic budget of the Waffen SS, we had various formations, which, at the order of Himmler, were put there so that they could enjoy the advantages of the Waffen SS in regard to dealings of an economic nature, etc., with the authorities.

Q. Then it was a technical expression which was known everywhere, the Nominal Waffen SS?

A. Yes. The Waffen SS proper, that is the troops, were under a Kommando Amt of the Waffen SS unless they were at the front and thus under the army. And this inspectorate of the concentration camps was not under the Kommandant of the Waffen SS and received no orders from this side. The inspectorate of the concentration camps, Gluecks's office, had its own channel of command. As far as I know, it received its mail independently, and so forth; and as far as I know, it did not even come into closer contact with the WVHA, of which it was an Amtsgruppe.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:26 am)

Closer to the subject is the following:
...Q. I would like you to tell the Tribunal how the Germans called the street to the gas chambers?

A. It was named "Himmelfahrt" Street.

Q. That is to say, the "road to heaven"?

A. Yes. . . . If it interests the court, I can present a plan of the camp of Treblinka, which I drew up when I was there and I can point out to the Tribunal this street on the plan.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think it is necessary to put in a plan of the camp, unless you particularly want to?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, I also agree that it is not really necessary.

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. Please tell us, witness, how long did a person live after he had arrived in the Treblinka Camp?

A. The whole process of undressing and the walk down to the gas chambers lasted, for the men eight or ten minutes, and for the women some fifteen minutes. The women took fifteen minutes because they had to have their hair cut off before they went to the gas chambers.

Q. Why was their hair cut off?

A. According to the ideas of the authorities this hair was to be used in the manufacture of mattresses for German women.


THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that there were only ten minutes between the time when they were taken out of the trucks and the time when they were put into the gas chambers?

THE WITNESS: As far as men were concerned, I am sure it did not last longer than ten minutes.

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. Including the undressing?

A. Yes, including the undressing.

Q. Please tell us, witness, were the people brought to Treblinka in trucks or in trains?

A. They were brought nearly always in trains, and only the people from neighbouring villages and hamlets were brought in trucks. The trucks bore the sign "Expedition Speer," and came from Vengrova Sokolova....
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 9-05.shtml
What would the Holocaust do, if it wasn't for the Nizkor crew :D ?

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:54 pm)

Let me add my two pennies to the discussion.

(1) The arguments put forward to "debunk" the Frachtbrief-Doppel as a forgery are not convincing to someone who has read quite a lot of original correspondence from the Nazi camps.

I feel that those who posted on this thread have a too high opinion of the language skills of the camp SS. Though at the upper echelons of the RSHA and SS-WVHA there were some well-educated people, most of the camp SS NCOs and rank and file came from the lower strata of society, and many of them were, indeed, not qualified at all. If you don't believe me, read the memoirs of Rudolf Hoess, where he more than once complained that Oranienburg had sent him "the worst human material." If this was the case at the "model camp" of Auschwitz, what would you expect from a lower ranking camp? In addition, many SS men who served in the camps in the East were Volksdeutsch and had only a feeble knowledge of German, and the typists were mostly Polish. Therefore documents written in the camps are often full of errors in grammar, style, and orthography, not to mention simple typos. One could even say, such errors are a sign of authenticity. BTW, "Hannover" in Polish is also written with one n, phonetically, since a double n is differently pronounced in Polish. (Doubling of a consonant, in Polish, does not affect the pronunciation of the preceding vowel, as it is the case in German.)

That an Unterscharfuehrer signed the document is also no problem for an expert. One cannot compare Wehrmacht ranks - and responsibilities - with those in the SS. For example, the camp commandant of the Harzungen sub-camp of Mittelbau, a camp with 4,500 inmates and an SS staff of some hundred men, was a Scharfuehrer. A similar POW camp would have had at least a Major, if not a Lt. Colonel as commandant. In addition, in all concentration camps that I have studied, the administrative personnel (Department IV) held even lower SS ranks than the personnel of the camp departments I, II, III, and V.

(2) The "hair issue" is, indeed, rather problematic. Himmler undoubtedly ordered to collect the hair that was obtained in the camps, and he even gave an example: that footwear for railroaders should be made from it. Hair was collected in some, not all, camps, there are also a few documents showing that human hair was sent to textile manufacturing plants, and the 7 tons of hair that were found on the liberation of Auschwitz were also real.

But AFAIK nobody has yet studied the "hair issue" in detail. E.g., was there a technology for processing human hair, and if so, what could be made from it? (Remember that human hair has qualities quite different from animal hair.) What says the relevant specialist literature? Was human hair on the list of textile raw materials (such as cotton or wool), which were controlled by an administrative body? Were there ever artifacts found made from human hair, and if so, when were they made and/or where? Are there documents referring to hair processing in the archives of firms? Or in those of the economic administration, in those of the towns and counties where the textile manufacturing firms were located, which - allegedly or not - had received human hair from the camps? If human hair was, indeed, a valuable raw material, was it collected at other places too, e.g. at Wehrmacht barracks, or at barber shops? Answering those questions would need, however, quite a lot of professional work, because it will not be sufficient to answer only one of the above mentioned questions, and certainly more questions will arise. But it would settle the "hair issue" once and for all.

That, according to witnesses, by far not all hair was collected in the camps, and that enormous amounts of human hair were left at Auschwitz, points to the fact that the German war economy did not need human hair urgently. I have not studied the "hair issue" in detail. Having hair collected in the camps seems to have been one of the many crackpot ideas of Heinrich Himmler. He obviously never came back to it and he never bragged with it before Goering or Hitler (which he did with many other things of dubious value).

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:02 pm)

Neander said:
(2) The "hair issue" is, indeed, rather problematic. Himmler undoubtedly ordered to collect the hair that was obtained in the camps, and he even gave an example: that footwear for railroaders should be made from it. Hair was collected in some, not all, camps, there are also a few documents showing that human hair was sent to textile manufacturing plants, and the 7 tons of hair that were found on the liberation of Auschwitz were also real.

Please show us this alleged order from Himmler.
Please show us this alleged order that footwear be made of hair.
Please show us this alleged 'footwear'.
Show us the alleged documents which proves that hair was sent to textile plants.
Please prove to us that an alleged '7 tons of hair' was actually at Auschwitz when the Soviets arrived.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:39 am)

I think the real question here is why does head-shaving even play a role in holocaust historiography to begin with? What is proven when mentioning the cutting of hair, or even alleged bags of hair claimed to be found by the Soviets (although the amount of claimed hair found is clearly a gross exaggeration even if they did find hair)? People had lice, lice are often combatted with hair cutting, and hair was a material useful for industry. End of story. So what?

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:13 am)

To "Hannover":

If you ever have looked into this problem, you should know where to find the documents. Access e.g. to vol. II of "Auschwitz 1940-1945", Oswiecim 2000. Please look into chapter XII.2. Where to find the relevant documents is mentioned there in the footnotes.

But I am afraid you will again say that all these documents - Himmler order, shipping documents, etc. - are "forged," and that all eyewitness accounts are lies.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:43 am)

To "Pot Pie":

I feel you've put the right question. I cannot yet answer it completely, but I think it has to do with a certain worldview. Soviet thinking was governed by a primitive version of Marxism (old Charlie would have rotated in his grave had he heard all the Soviet nonsense pronounced in his name) that reduced all human activities to mere economics. National Socialism was declared a kind of "Fascism," which itself was, according to the teachings of Dimitrov, the most rabid form of Imperialism, which itself was, according to the teachings of Lenin, the highest and last phase of Capitalism. So, in Soviet thinking, the German National Socialists were nothing but the agents of Capitalism in its most aggressive form, and Capitalism, as every Marxist knows, is only interested in making profit.

The Soviets could not imagine that the Nazi Germans would kill somebody just for killing. There must have been an economic motive driving them. So they imagined the use of the corpses. Well, that the precious metal of the dead's teeth was collected (already done during the "Euthanasia," the killing of handicapped German (!) nationals in Germany proper) helped them to "extrapolate" the use of dead bodies for making soap, lampshades, mattresses, fertilizer, etc. It was not mere anti-German propaganda, it was also an important means for the Soviets themselves to integrate the news about German atrocities into their belief system.

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Postby Coder62 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:32 am)

To joachim neander,

Well you didn't disprove my debunking of the hair bill, in my opinion you seem to give a raw explanation of why the SS in Treblinka would have misspelled words as that they, "came from the lower strata of society" now while I cannot disprove this, the burden of proof for that is on you.
To generalize like this however is not proof and to state, "the typists were mostly Polish" again comes down to you to prove this with evidence.

You went on to write, "Therefore documents written in the camps are often full of errors in grammar, style, and orthography, not to mention simple typos" if you could give us these official documents and allow us to to see how, "often" simple typos were made that would be a start, but I cannot take your word for that alone.
The fact that Hanover is the polish spelling still doesn't make sense, were the Polish civilians working in Auschwitz aware of the gas chambers and crematoria, also were making so many mistakes which might have led to false information or goods being wrongly delivered due to typos?

As PotPie stated no one doubts the hair was cut off but its the purpose of why it was cut off that the pro-Holocaust population have speculated about, as revisionists it is our common belief that the hair was removed to stop the spread of lice and this is why so much hair was found in camps.
Of course if this was acknowledged it would disprove that inmates were immediately gassed but instead the Nazi regime cared about these inmates health enough to cut off each persons hair.
As a wise man once said, "if your going to get off the train and get gassed within the hour and then thrown into a pit, what is the point of a hair cut? - Denierbud

I must admit that I agree with my fellow posters here that, "7 tons of hair" were found at Auschwitz seems a great weight and as Hannover stated if the Soviets lied about so many things in the camp how can we trust them to even weigh the hair correctly and thats assuming it was even present when they arrived, until we know it was done properly you cannot state, "the 7 tons of hair that were on the liberation of Auschwitz were also real"

To conclude if you wish to state my arguments as, "not convincing" I'm afraid you have to come up with more than fabled alleged stories of Himmler ordering some kind of hair shoes to be made and alleged Polish typists whom apparently continuously made mistakes, I suppose it works against the evil Nazi stories if the wehrmacht and SS let constant typos go unnoticed without punishment.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:54 am)

joachim neander wrote:To "Hannover":

If you ever have looked into this problem, you should know where to find the documents. Access e.g. to vol. II of "Auschwitz 1940-1945", Oswiecim 2000. Please look into chapter XII.2. Where to find the relevant documents is mentioned there in the footnotes.

But I am afraid you will again say that all these documents - Himmler order, shipping documents, etc. - are "forged," and that all eyewitness accounts are lies.

Neander, IOW there are no Himmler orders, there are no documents.
You referred to them but cannot even give us the text.
Please quote us the text of these documents.
You've gone from assertions of 'orders & documents' to backpedaling to 'footnotes'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:32 pm)

Neander,

I think you have set a rather high criteria for a forgery. In the end, looking a jpg all one can get is an indication.

For example, suppose I as a Soviet commissiar, liberate a German Wehrmacht stationary stock. All I have to do is a type "Please deliver from Auschwitz 200 kilograms of purest Jewish soap" and a few stamps that might be lying around and voila, we have a document that Nizkor folks can rend their clothes over.

This is the exact case. We have a Wehrmacht document, with a stamp of the Waffen SS Bekleidungswerke in Lublin on it, with "hair from Treblinka" stamped on it.

That is 3 completely separate organisations, one of which is five hours by train away in the wrong direction (Treblinka to Lublin).

That, according to witnesses, by far not all hair was collected in the camps, and that enormous amounts of human hair were left at Auschwitz, points to the fact that the German war economy did not need human hair urgently. I have not studied the "hair issue" in detail.


Indeed, we have plenty of witnesses but no finished product.

In fact there is only one finished product - a role of so called human-hair cloth in the Auschwitz museum.

If however, one examines this closely you see that it is ordinary cotton or linen cloth that someone has scattered some hair during the weaving randomly for exhibition purposes.

Its not a genuine article where the addition of hair has added any value whatsoever (the reverse in fact). Like your soap, it is simply an item produced for propaganda value.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:53 pm)

joachim neander wrote:To "Hannover":

If you ever have looked into this problem, you should know where to find the documents. Access e.g. to vol. II of "Auschwitz 1940-1945", Oswiecim 2000. Please look into chapter XII.2. Where to find the relevant documents is mentioned there in the footnotes.

But I am afraid you will again say that all these documents - Himmler order, shipping documents, etc. - are "forged," and that all eyewitness accounts are lies.

Ah yes, with the cited English volume in hand, let's begin with footnote 22. This references a communist Nuremberg document, 'USSR 51'.
Note that Neander's actual 'order' is never shown, but simply claimed by Soviet communists. USSR 51 is laughable, here's why:
http://www.cwporter.com/ussr511.htm
The Website of Carlos Whitlock Porter
Translation of document USSR-511, NUREMBERG TRIAL
("HUMAN HAIR SOCKS DOCUMENT").

By C. W. Porter

[USSR-511 is an almost illegible negative photostat of a "carbon copy" retyped by unknown persons, with a typewritten signature, typewritten heading, and two German stamps. The words "signed signature" appear WRITTEN OUT IN THE DOCUMENT ITSELF, not once, but TWICE. The word "illegible" also appears, WRITTEN OUT IN THE DOCUMENT ITSELF. This is very common with Soviet forgeries; see my article THE UNRELIABILITY OF DOCUMENTS IN JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC's TECHNIQUE AND OPERATION OF THE GAS CHAMBERS.

USSR-511 is listed in the IMT volumes as a "carbon copy". The document contains umlauts but no sharp S (i.e ß ), a standard letter in the German alphabet. It is dated 1942, i.e., the Germans had 3 more years in which to collect hair for sock-making, as well as to file all the other hundreds of documents mentioned herein, but NO other documents relating to this absurd topic -- and NO hair socks -- have ever been found. The legibility of the "original document" (the original "carbon copy") was so poor that the official IMT translation into English was based on the Russian, not the German, but with several crucial deletions. For example, gez. Unterschrift – "signed signature" – and unerleserlich – "illegible" – were left in German!

Several mistakes in the "original document" -- particularly, the misspelt name of SS Brigadeführer Glücks -- have been "corrected" in the typeset version in the IMT volumes.

See also MADE IN RUSSIA -- THE HOLOCAU$T, pp. 75 and 76.

[stamp in Gothic letters: SECRET!]

Copy

Oranienburg, 6 August 1942

SS Economic and Administrative Office
Office group D – Concentration camps
D II 283 Na/Uag. Tgb [journal number] 112 geh. [secret]
Copy no 13 Regarding: Utilization of cut hair

To: Concentration camp commandants Arb., Au., Bu., Da., Flo., Gro. Ros. Lu., Haut/Gu., Na., Nie., Neu. K. Rav., Sachs., Stutth., Mor., SS SL Hinzert.

The Chief of the Central Economic and Administrative Office of the SS, SS-Obergruppenführer Pohl, on the basis of a report, orders that [dass – no sharp S] all human hair cut in concentration camps is to be delivered for utilization. Human hair is to be processed into industrial felt [Note: only Negro hair can be felted] and spun into yarn. Hair-yarn booties [!] for submarine crews and hair-felt-socks for the Reichs railway workers will be manufactured of combed and cut women's hair.

It is therefore ordered that the [dass das ] hair cut off women inmates is to be stored after disinfestation. Hair cut off male inmates may only be utilized in lengths of at least 20 mm.

SS-Obergruppenführer Pohl therefore agrees that, by way of experiment at first, the hair of male inmates should only be cut when it reaches a length of at least 20 mm. To prevent facilitating escape as a result of allowing the hair to grow, the inmates should be marked in the following manner, where the commandants consider it necessary: that [dass] a strip should be cut through the hair by means of a narrow clipper.

Efforts are being made to carry out the processing of cut hair through the creation of a processing unit in one of the concentration camps. More detailed instructions as to the delivery of the delivery of collected hair will follow.

Reports on the amount of hair collected every month, male and female recorded separately, must be submitted on the 5th of each month beginning on 5 September 1942.

[Note: so where are these documents?
Where is the original of USSR-511?
Where are the socks?
]

Signed: Gluecks

[Note: the correct German spelling is : Glücks]
[typewritten signature]

SS-Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS

F.D.R. [mistake for F.d.R.] [for the correctness of the copy]
Signed signature [WRITTEN OUT IN THE DOCUMENT ITSELF]

[illegible sentence missing in official English translation from Russian]

Distribution list:
II, III, IV,
Labour service

[stamp in Gothic letters]

For the correctness of the copy

Signed signature [WRITTEN OUT IN THE DOCUMENT ITSELF]

(illegible) [WRITTEN OUT IN THE DOCUMENT ITSELF, i.e., the document has allegedly been "retyped" by unknown persons]

SS-Untersturmbannführer Schue [handwritten signature]

[Circular swastika stamp:]

Waffen SS
Commandant of Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp

[Note: Inmate hair was shaved to prevent typhus.]

What is astonishing about the Holocaust is not that it is false, but that it is ridiculous. There must be a Black Hole in the Universe filled with gas vans, pressure vans, portable ovens, portable bone grinders, spanking machines, human mattresses, human socks, boots, shoes, saddles, slippers, gloves, purses, wallets, books, canvases for painting dirty pictures, millions of documents and 40 or 50 thousand tons of crude ashes and bone fragments up to 2 inches long.

There is a constant assumption that Germany was an underdeveloped country like the Central African Republic, where nobody ever saw a mattress, a pair of socks, a bar of soap or a pair of underwear.

The Germans were extremely sophisticated chemists synthesizing millions of tons of oil, rubber, gasoline, edible fats and oils, and fibres every year. They invented Nylon with the Du Pont Company in 1938 and called it Perlon.

It appears almost superfluous to add that Negro hair can be felted but that other hair cannot be. (Source: 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Hair”.)

age 377, MADE IN RUSSIA -- THE HOLOCAUST

FOOTNOTE:


We have been unable to locate the trousers made of human skin (page 53) in any archive. We have also been unable to locate the socks made of human hair (page 78), or the original wartime documents. The documents alleged by Telford Taylor to be in the Peace Palace of the Hague for example [The Use of Captured German and Related Records in the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial, in Captured and Related Records, a National Archive Conference), edited by Robert Wolfe, Athens Ohio, 1974, available from the National Archives, are not there.

We have, however found the human soap. This forensically untested evidence of unknown origin (“To this day, the origin of the soap making rumour has not been traced”, Hilberg, “revised”, “definitive” Destruction of the European Jews, Holmes and Meier, New York, 1985, p. 966), is in the Peace Palace of the Hague, along with the forensically untested human skin samples of unknown origin and two steel whips (IMT XVI – 546).

Of the two British human soap witnesses, signers of mutually contradictory hearsay affidavits prepared with the help of other people, John Henry Witton has apparently emigrated, while William Anderson Neely lives in Scotland. He has declined to discuss his experiences, and appears unaware that his story could make him wealthy.

The “top secret” order to make socks out of human hair (USSR-511), taken seriously by Hilberg, p. 954, footnote 26, and by the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (Organisierter Massenmord in Nazionalsozialistischen Vernichtungslagern by Ino Arndt and Wolfgang Scheffler, footnote 33), is described as an “original document”, but the Russians took the original back to Russia with them.

The document itself is a nearly illegible negative photostat with a typewritten signature, a typewritten heading, an illegible initial certifying it as a “true copy”, and two German stamps. The socks are not attached.

In footnote 23 we have a claim of a document which in fact is a "reproduction of a postwar transcription of the instructions of january 4, 1943", of course, never see an original document, only a claim of a "transcription" (transcribed from what to what?) which is not even shown.

In footnote 24, we get an 'Ibid'. IOW same bogus reference without the documents that are claimed; garbage in, garbage out.

In footnote 25 we have an unsubstantiated reference to a book by the discredited Rueckerl, which neither mentions nor refers to any 'documents'.

In footnote 26 we have references to various individuals who curiously claim to have 'witnessed' the impossible-as-alleged Auschwitz 'gas chambers'. Included is the absurd Dov Paisikovic and Henrik Tauber.

Liar Dov Paisikovic, stated that the cremation of one body took about four minutes! Utterly impossible. -Léon Poliakov, Auschwitz, René Julliard, Paris 1964, p. 159 ff.
also see:
'A crematory site'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=531

Liar Tauber, among many absurdities said:
In testifying to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945, he claims 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

This is an utter impossibility given the timeline and the number of functioning crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau. The 10,000-12,000 per day figure also served the Communist assertion that 279,000 were cremated monthly (as alleged by the Soviets in a May 1945 report). No other figure would serve the propaganda, and the figure is itself utterly laugable.

Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 5-7 minutes.

An impossibility even today (it's more like 60-90 minutes), simply absurd especially with 1940s technology.

Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle."

There are no such "calculations and plans" in the records.

Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from massive open air cremations.

Impossible, the fat would have ignited; there is no evidence for massive cremation pits.

Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with human fat that flowed from the burning corpses.

same as above

Tauber:
"One day the SS men threw a man into the boiling fat (in the open-air pit filled with human fat that ran from the corpses into a separate reservoir dug in the ground, and was poured over the corpses to accelerate the combustion), then pulled him out, still alive, and shot him. "The next day, the corpse was brought back to the crematorium, where it was incinerated in a pit"

No explanation necessary.

Tauber testified that he inserted and cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven muffle, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke.

Impossible, there was not enough space for 8 corpses, and more than one corpse per muffle would have caused damaged to the oven, as stated by the builder of the crematoria, SS Kurt Prufer. Plus, the crematoria at Auschwitz gave off practically no smoke...as evidenced by many wartime aerial photos.

for more on the nutcase Tauber, see:
'Acclaimed 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber / stranger than fiction'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=17

Footnote 27 refers to a Polish book about the tortured Auschwitz commandant Hoess, who after being tortured (admitted to by his torturers), said the most impossible things, and even stated later that he would have said/signed anything.

In footnote 28 we have a reference to another alleged communist 'eyewitness'. He supposedly said that hair was shipped in large quantities, but he says the actual shipping documents labelled the alleged hair as "war material". IOW, there are no documents actually showing hair being shipped. Odd that Neander claims the Germans issued orders and openly discussed use of 'human hair, but actual German shipping documents say nothing about hair.

So it goes with the laughable, easily debunked lies of the 'holocaust' Industry. Look under the rock and nothing is there.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:31 pm)

To, "joachim neander",
Yes, indeed, the "hair issue" is problematic from the exterminationist's perspective because it is ridiculous. And from a truthseeker's perspective because it's a red-herring.

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Postby joachim neander » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:06 pm)

I see in this thread that there is a fundamental difference in looking at documents between people who systematically studied history and/or graduated in this field, and amateurs interested in history, who look at some documents from time to time. Every trained historian knows that documents _can_ be forged, and students of history learn about exemplary forgeries, such as the "Constantinian Donation," and they learn in detail how to deal with the problem of forged documents. No serious historian would _a priori_ assume that every document that does not fit into his/her thesis is a fraud. And in every case the burden of proof lies on the person who claims that a document is a fraud, not the reverse.

If you cannot pin down a person who admits that s/he forged a certain document, you need a lot of research to make your "forgery" hypothesis probable. The state-of-the art method is to compare the suspect document with others, similar ones and certainly not forged, of the time. So if you want to prove that a Frachtbrief is a forgery, you must compare it with many other Frachtbriefe which you know are genuine. I have seen quite a lot of such Frachtbriefe - originals - when doing my archival research, Frachtbriefe that had nothing to do with the Holocaust. When concentration camps sent things by rail, they always demanded from the Reichsbahn to be granted the military tariff and declared that the items shipped (material goods or prisoners) were "Gut der Waffen-SS." It helped them cut the costs. And that an SS firm in Lublin can have branches in other places, is nothing new and occurs frequently in economy.

There is still another point brought before by "Coder62": the misspelling of "Hannover." I said that typos etc. are quite common in the many, many pages of camp correspondence I've been reading in the last 15 years. And every Revisionist should agree that such errors occur frequently when people are writing who have only a minor knowledge of the pitfalls of German orthography.

An analysis made by Aleksander Lasik shows that 70 per cent of the Auschwitz SS crew had not finished more than 8 years of primary school (Volksschule), and that many of them had been unskilled workers in their civilian lives. What is more, everybody who has studied the SS or Wehrmacht organization in the East in some detail knows that the auxiliary work was done by "Hiwis," non-Germans who had volunteered for these jobs. So there is a very high probability that the SS-Unterscharführer from the Frachtbrief had never received an award in a spelling-bee contest at school, and that the typist was non-German, which together makes it equally highly probable that a simple copy of an everyday document contains a spelling error. For everybody who is not prone to seeing conspiracy everywhere, it is the most logical explanation.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:49 pm)

I note once again that Joachim Neander cannot show us the 'orders & documents' he curiously claims exist.

Neander claims 'orders & documents' but backtracts to 'footnotes', I read the footnotes, and of course there are no 'orders or documents' to support his position.

I also note that Joachim Neander avoids entering into a debate on the phantom gas chambers which his 'footnotes' claim, but never show. Having undoubtedly observed the debunking of those like Andrew Mathis, Sergey Romanov, and Roberto Muehlenkamp, all shredded at this forum, Joachim Neander stays away from the most basic issue of 'holocaust gas chambers'. Much like a 'Jonathan Harrison', who ventured here, realized he would be refuted, then fled.

Odd that Neander and his 'holocaust' Industry have to rely on people like teacher of Judaism, Deborah Lipstadt; or Robert Jan Van Pelt, who is a Professor of "Cultural History". They are quick to quote the thoroughly discredited Jean Claude Pressac, who was a French pharmacist. Then they say we have no 'historians', yet they praise the absurd work of 'holocaust historian' (a true oxymoron) Raoul Hilberg who did not have a degree in history.
see Hilberg sliced & diced here:
fraudulent historian Hilberg exposed in court'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=100
and:
''holocaust historian' Hilberg dissected'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=312
and:
'thoroughly discredited 'holocaust historian' Hilberg dies'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4442

see Pressac demolished here:
'"The Unreliability of Documents In Jean-Claude Pressac's Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers"
http://forum.codoh.com/codoh/425.html
and:
'Jean-Claude Pressac: A Revisionist?'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=752
and:
Ten Years Ago, Jean-Claude Pressac’s Capitulation'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2331

see Van Pelt trashed here:
'Jan Van Pelt visits Auschwitz.....again.'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1783

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:19 pm)

joachim neander wrote:
So if you want to prove that a Frachtbrief is a forgery, you must compare it with many other Frachtbriefe which you know are genuine. I have seen quite a lot of such Frachtbriefe - originals - when doing my archival research, Frachtbriefe that had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Do these non camp related documents also show a considerable amount of spelling & grammar errors?

joachim neander wrote:There is still another point brought before by "Coder62": the misspelling of "Hannover." I said that typos etc. are quite common in the many, many pages of camp correspondence I've been reading in the last 15 years.


Maybe "Schutzstaffel" is another one of those "Germano-Vulcan code words" like "Deportation" is code for "Extermination" & Schutzstaffel really means Silly Sausage!

joachim neander wrote:An analysis made by Aleksander Lasik shows that 70 per cent of the Auschwitz SS crew had not finished more than 8 years of primary school (Volksschule), and that many of them had been unskilled workers in their civilian lives.

maybe the Waffen SS wasn't the Elite at all, maybe it was the dumping ground for imbeciles, retards & the dregs of society & generally for those just too dumb to serve in the Heer
on the other hand, why at the mention of Aleksander Lasik do I get an uncomfortable feeling?
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



Helga Zepp-LaRouche.


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