HC proposes renunciation of holocaust-denial laws

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Bankdraft
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HC proposes renunciation of holocaust-denial laws

Postby Bankdraft » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:36 pm)

The boys at HC have initiated a request for renunciation of holocaust-denial laws which they plan to submit to the German Legislator.

The theme of the petition is a quote from a "German legal journal" (Author unknown, 1994):

"Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past."

It does not specifically mention the holocaust, rather it refers to "... horrors and crimes of the recent German past." Resent past is a bit troubling in that the quote was (presumably) made 50 years after the war ended but I feel like the holocaust is at least the desired intent.

They currently have eleven signatures (four from HC members).

I would think something more consistent with Article 19 of the UN Human Rights Charter (which appears on the CODOH's masthead) would be more effective:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

In any event, it may be viewed (and signed if desired) here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
Some stories are true that never happened. ~ Elie Wiesel ~

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Postby Kageki » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:34 am)

Eh these guys are Holocaust promoters right? Interesting...

I agree though. It's not a crime to "deny" the Nanking massacre or anything else right? Why should it be just for the Holocaust?

Still this seems weird, but I'm certainly not going to disagree that Holocaust "denial" shouldn't be a crime.

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Postby Coder62 » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:15 am)

Kageki wrote:Eh these guys are Holocaust promoters right? Interesting...

I agree though. It's not a crime to "deny" the Nanking massacre or anything else right? Why should it be just for the Holocaust?

Still this seems weird, but I'm certainly not going to disagree that Holocaust "denial" shouldn't be a crime.


Yes they are Holocaust promoters, but I highly doubt anything will change within Germany's legal system any time soon.

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Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:35 pm)

Here's an angle for you:

The decriminalization of holocaust-denial and transfer to a "department of health and human services" where it is developed into a "personality-disorder" in need of "treatment". Then comes room 101.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_101
Stupidity is just another word for irrational, or incompetent.
Beware.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:11 pm)

NovyMir wrote:Here's an angle for you:

The decriminalization of holocaust-denial and transfer to a "department of health and human services" where it is developed into a "personality-disorder" in need of "treatment". Then comes room 101.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_101
Stupidity is just another word for irrational, or incompetent.
Beware.


Haha... Probably, especially considering that psychology draws much of what it terms 'normal' human behavior by the popular social mores of any given time.

I'd suggest that this document be applied and sent to all countries with holocuast denial laws, and also write a copy for leftist and Jewish groups who promote these laws, such as the ADL.

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Postby MarkTurley » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:57 pm)

ok, I viewed the HC petition and supported the cause, but didn't like the wording as it contained a quote which referred to revisionism as being a position of 'stupidity'. It was suggested to me to design an alternative, so I did.

It seems the German government does have a 'petitions committee' so if it gets enough signatures, I'll send it to them. If anyone would like to sign, its here...

http://www.petitiononline.com/hammer72/petition.html
To: The German Legislator's petition committee

We, the undersigned, believe that is immoral to enshrine History in law.

The German State's reaction to those who wish to provide an alternative narrative for what has become known as the 'Holocaust' is a horrendous misuse of the principles of jurisprudence. The custodial sentences given to Ernst Zuendel, Germar Rudolf, Sylvia Stolz and others are a clear demonstration that nothing has been learned from the past. It is our firm belief that their sentences should be revoked and the law of Germany changed to reflect a real acceptance of the principles of free speech and the marketplace of ideas.

In 'On Liberty' (1859), the British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote,

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."

It is a sorry reflection on the German state that it deems it necessary to imprison individuals for nothing more than expressing sincere beliefs. Ironically, it is evocative of the fascism that they so desire to distance themselves from. It is a sign of weakness, of fear and shallow character.
We condemn it utterly.

We believe the time has come for Germany to show some courage. Sixty years of guilt, fear and shame have not allowed the nation to come to terms with its past. The time has come for a 'Realgeschichte' in which truth may be reached through competing narratives. To be afraid of this is to be afraid of the basis of all human knowledge.

Deutschland, wir glauben an Sie.

Sincerely,


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Postby Bankdraft » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:34 pm)

Mark,

You're a genius! That's fucking poetry.

How about a little background? I saw the Muehlenkamp petition before it went up and specifically told Roberto -- who authored this stellar piece of prose (except for the inane quote that you refer to) -- that CODOH members would not sign a petition that specifically referred to them as "stupid" and told him it was insulting to suggest it but you know how believers are... it's 6M gassed Jews or nothing.

It's also my position that he did not want any revisionist signatures so that he could later say, "Hey, we offered a petition but they refused to sign it. " He's a bit of of a sociopath.

I too suggested an alternative and here it is:

We do not endorse censorship of any kind, anywhere, regardless of topic. We call for a full renunciation of the medieval Holocaust Denial laws. We are likewise opposed to Holocaust Denial laws being passed in Britain or the United States. We are convinced that open, non-criminalized debate would quell any controversies much sooner than censorship or imprisonment and would thereby lay to rest any lingering doubt over the role Germany played in the Holocaust.

Here is his (predictable) reply:

No, Sir. This sounds like there’s some merit to your "lingering doubt", which is bullshit.

Your petition really is well written and professional, especially compared to that illogical crap RM wrote. One formatting suggestion? Here's your petition with my incorporated change:

[START]

To: The German Legislator's petition committee
We, the undersigned, believe that is immoral to enshrine History in law.

The German State's reaction to those who wish to provide an alternative narrative for what has become known as the 'Holocaust' is a horrendous misuse of the principles of jurisprudence. The custodial sentences given to Ernst Zuendel, Germar Rudolf, Sylvia Stolz and others are a clear demonstration that nothing has been learned from the past. It is our firm belief that their sentences should be revoked and the law of Germany changed to reflect a real acceptance of the principles of free speech and the marketplace of ideas.

In 'On Liberty' (1859), the British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote,

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."

It is a sorry reflection on the German state that it deems it necessary to imprison individuals for nothing more than expressing sincere beliefs. Ironically, it is evocative of the fascism that they so desire to distance themselves from. It is a sign of weakness, of fear and shallow character.

We condemn it utterly.

We believe the time has come for Germany to show some courage. Sixty years of guilt, fear and shame have not allowed the nation to come to terms with its past. The time has come for a 'Realgeschichte' in which truth may be reached through competing narratives. To be afraid of this is to be afraid of the basis of all human knowledge.

Deutschland, wir glauben an Sie.


Sincerely,


[STOP]

All I did was make "We condemn it utterly.",a separate paragraph. It presents a little better. If you have a reason for presenting it the way you did, disregard my suggestion. Possibly it could be incorporated into the preceding paragraph. Your choice.

It's people like you that give me hope and make me realize how illogical the current state of affairs is.

One more point. The German people are far, far too sophisticated to actually support imprisonment for free speech and they know the truth about the holocaust but they also have to function in the real world. By enforcing holocaust denial laws, they keep the Jews off their back and reason that if a few scholars have to sit in prison for the greater good of the people -- however repugnant it is -- so be it.

Simply fucking brilliant. Please let me know what I can to do to advance your petition.

Bankdraft.
Some stories are true that never happened. ~ Elie Wiesel ~

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Postby MarkTurley » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:38 pm)

well, thanks for the encouragement, Bankdraft.

I'm sure your formatting suggestion makes sense but unfortunately I can't edit the petition once its live - its a rule of the web host and makes sense because people don't want to put their name to something and then see it changed.

I'm not going to discuss Roberto Muehlankamp here because I don't believe in casting asides behind people's backs, no matter how much their views differ from mine, but in terms of background, I guess the story is that I'm a regular participant on another forum which, I supppose, is a rival to this one, although I think that's all a bit silly...but anyway, I read about the HC petition there and said that I couldn't sign it because of the wording. A few believers then commented to the effect that revisionists / skeptics wouldn't sign it because they really want the hate speech laws to remain as it gives them a cause to complain about and that kind of got to me because I genuinely care about this issue. I'm not in it because I'm a hater or an anti-semite or any of the rest of it, I'm in, I guess, because I'm half German. In fact my grandfather joined the NSDAP in the twenties and was eventually killed while serving in the Luftwaffe.
I care about Germany (and the UK, where I was born and live - my father is British and also fought in WW2) but I genuinely believe the history of that period has been misrepresented and that Germany has been given a rough deal.
I think the hate speech laws are repugnant and would love to see them repealed. I believe that given freedom in the 'marketplace of ideas', revisionism will win out because it has truth on its side. Its as simple as that.
In terms of what you can do to promote it, you can sign it if you haven't done so already. Other than that post links to it wherever you can. Any sites you know of where this sort of thing is discussed,

Btw, folks, we need names, not internet tags. If I'm going to send this to the Bundestag one day it needs real names on it. If you believe in this, then sign your name. Make a stand for something.

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Postby Bankdraft » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:15 pm)

Mark,

Fair enough and I understand your position concerning RM. Probably I was out-of-line in saying what I did but I did unequivocally make it known to him that no revisionist would sign a petition that specifically refers to them as “stupid”. Obviously it held little meaning for him (e.g. “Bullshit”)

Part of my exuberance had to do with the fact that you were the first to recognized the obvious discrepancy in the wording of the RM petition.

In any event, I will sign the petition and make it my duty to at least encourage other revisionist to do so as well. The sincerity of your intent is palpable.

If the other forum is R.O.D.O.H. no problem, I have been invited to join and I plan to do so in the very near future. It seems a fair enough place but thank God for Scott Smith or it would be another racist shit-hole.

I am German/Dutch (Grandmother was a Schumann and Grandfather was a... well, I can’t mention my last name because of the demonstrated harassment tactics of the believers) and wish we as a people could stop feuding. When I think of 70M dead Europeans (as a result of WWII) it makes me ill. I better stop or I’ll get philosophical.

Your J.S.M. quote was spot-on, give me a few more minutes and I would come up with an appropriate Goethe or Schopenhauer quote.

Anyway, that’s all beside the point. Truly a well-write petition and more importantly, am emotional appeal for truth.

Hope to talk with you again.

B
Some stories are true that never happened. ~ Elie Wiesel ~

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:30 pm)

Bankdraft said: The boys at HC have initiated a request for renunciation of holocaust-denial laws........ that CODOH members would not sign...

I looked at the site and saw:

* Andrew E. Mathis
* Nick Terry
* Roberto Muehlenkamp
* Jonathan Harrison
* Sergey Romanov

And that was enough.

These guys, who having lost every argument they ever presented..... then ran and retreated..... firing sporadically from any shelter they imagined may save them, have now changed tack. They are now way out east, or wherever, frantically looking under every stone for a dead Jew. They think a few Jews may have been shot out there somewhere. There may even be a grave or two. They think thats a holocaust. Ya just gotta laugh.

Having lost their battle to make lies appear as truth, they have changed tack. Unfortunately for them, being rather slow and devious, the rest of us can see they are now in defeat mode.

They want us to agree that what is happening to us is wrong. They would like to engulf us in debating this self-evident truth for the next ten years or so..... Don't fall for it!

Each martyr in prison for the truth adds a burning coal upon their heads. They know it, and they accutely feel it burning. They are now within a conflagration of burning hell! With every day that passes, faggots are placed upon the fire, and the temperature is raised. Believe it!

Lets burn them up, lets not relent. Surely they deserve it! Lets not enter into any sort of false compromise that is no victory!
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


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