The main problem?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
FrankLee
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:02 pm

The main problem?

Postby FrankLee » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:07 pm)

Obviously the main strategy of the holocaust industry is to avoid debating, by going on the offensive and demonizing anyone who disputes the holocaust. Yes there are severe legal sanctions in Europe and elsewhere, but the main sanctions are social by brainwashing the public into thinking it is immoral and/or crazy to dispute the big H and most importantly to refuse to listen to argument or to consult any alternative material at all. It's amazing how successful this has been so far and how gullible most people are - nearly all or us have experienced first-hand the typical reactions. It's all part of a bigger successful campaign to make people irrational and hysterical via media and education systems.

The point is that perhaps our main focus should be on countering this refusal to listen, this knee-jerk ad-hominen attack against revisionists.
We can then start to develop strategies to induce people to see their own irrationality and bigotry - break them out of the cozy self-righteousness with which they dismiss revisionism.

I know most dissenters try to be very nice with people and try to appeal to their reason. perhaps many don't appreciate just how unreasonable most people have become. the "Age of Reason" is long gone and you rarely see that phrase in print or media any more.

I personally think a more aggressive approach is better. We must try to make people aware of their accountability in dismissing, demonizing and ostracizing those who (for the most part) are only expressing their reasoned opinion based on their examination of the evidence, and that in doing so they are helping to attack the freedom of expression that most claim to hold dear.

As an example, I've knocked together a little flyer that I will be posting in public places. I would value any comments or suggestions for this flyer and anyone is of course welcome to print it.

Flyer:
So, you think that "holocaust deniers" are evil racist nazis, right?
Have you ever asked yourself why you think that? Of course you haven't.
Have you ever spent a single minute reading alternative, revisionist sources of information about the so-called holocaust? Of course you haven't.
Holocaust revisionists were recently called "bigots" by the UN secretary general. A bigot is someone who refuses to consider or examine an "inconvenient" claim.
Examining inconvenient and unpopular information is exactly what holocaust revisionists do. They are the opposite of bigots.

YOU are the bigot.

Why is it that the mass-media tells us that we should never debate or discuss the truth of the alleged holocaust?
Why are there now draconian laws in many European countries which criminalize questioning the holocaust and currently incarcerate hundreds of such people including some of the most famous such as Germar Rudolph and Ernst Zundel?
Why do governments, the media and "humanitarian" organizations like Amnesty International completely ignore these vile attacks on freedom of expression?

You can swallow whole the silly reasons hammered out by the mass media, like "defaming the memory of the dead". But don't you think you should consider the most obvious reason?

No you don't, because you are a coward and a mindless conformist, basking in the self-righteousness of condemning "evil nazis", secure in the knowledge that your "radical" attitude carries no risk at all. The true radicals and brave souls are those who dare to speak out against a sick lie that is protected by severe punishment, both legal and illegal.

For those few who still have minds of their own, check out these excellent sources:

codoh.com - the archives, a huge library of well-referenced articles, books and multi-media; and the live forum - have your say, engage in the forbidden practice of debating the holocaust!

ihr.org - huge archive of material

End of flyer

I haven't finished the list of links at the end yet - any suggestions? eg vho.org

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:42 pm)

FrankLee wrote:As an example, I've knocked together a little flyer that I will be posting in public places. I would value any comments or suggestions for this flyer and anyone is of course welcome to print it.


Excellent flyer. I would add a few addresses for specific introductory materials such as the very effective IHR leaflets. They can be found on several revisionist sites such as:
http://www.ihr.org/main/leaflets.shtml
http://www.codoh.com/info/infoihr/ihrleafdex.html

Most people who may be curious about your flyer won't care enough to go to much trouble, but they may look for the quick facts, if you underline the location of that sort of introductory stuff.

Barrington James
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:26 pm

Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:16 pm)

Franklee- Aside from the fact the myth makers spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year promoting the holocaust through the production and control of Hollywood movies, the absolute control of the media, an attempt to control the internet, and a near total control of most governments, it is my humble opinion that the difficulty in trying to convince anyone that the holocaust has been greatly exaggerated in number and in purpose is further more difficult to do for some of the following reasons:

1.The masses have been trained since childhood to believe whatever their masters tell them through their schooling, their church, the media and Hollywood. Consequently they have an undying faith that whatever and only whatever they have been “taught “ in school , in church seen on TV or the movies, or read about in their “newspapers” is true. Just one Hollywood movie can set back the truth 50 years and it has often done so.

2.Most of the masses are faith based people. Their religions teach them to believe and not to think. Religions, especially Christianity, are based on a primitive but extremely powerful drive that exists within all of us that blindly compels us to follow and to believe without thought.

3.Consequently anyone trying to get the masses to think has an enormous problem on his hands. It is similar to trying to convince a 5 year old that there is no Santa Claus when the child has a firm belief in Mother Goose, The Easter Bunny, Leprechauns, and/ or The Tooth Fairies. I am not advocating one should deny a child these pleasures, but I hope you get my point. I wouldn't suggest either that you begin your debate by telling your believer there is no God, for example, that would be too extreme, but I think you should try to get to them to at least think about their less emotional beliefs such as those about their President, the media or Hollywood.

4.This means that before trying to convince anyone that the holocaust is associated with some myths which cannot stand up to a mathematical, chemical, or logical investigation, such as cremating 2000 bodies an hour with no fuel to the point of leaving no evidence, or gassing people in a chamber 50 feet away from the SS barracks, such as claimed at Auschwitz, we should first try to convince the listener that he lives within a world of great myths, and that he has been lied to all his life.

5.A good place start might be the lies of George Bush: I am sure you can find a host of lies that he has given us. From here you might suggest other lies:
(i) The creation of Israel “ A land without people for a people without land.”.
(ii) the real causes of WW1, WW2 , the Vietnam war, or the war in Afghanistan
(iii) The real reasons for the American civil war
(iv) the real reason the American dropped the a bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

6.Of course one of the great dangers is 5. above is that the believer may have his myths so in place as part of his being that he will go into catatonic shock or else start screaming at you and you will lose him or her before you can even mention one of the dozens of myths associated with the holocaust.

7.Another problem with 5. above is that stating that Bush is lying is so obvious that it may have little effect. One might be better talking about the lies of Clinton, Johnson, or Nixon or the sneakiness of Reagan, Churchill, FDR, or Lincoln.

8.Or you might get so bogged down in explaining any of the above that you will not get to the lies of the holocaust.

9.Nevertheless, I still insist that it is very, very difficult to explain one event in history without tying it into the larger picture of how this world of ours really works.

10.Finally I would like to repeat that North America is still very much a land of credulous pioneers more suited to clearing the land, watching TV, and playing golf , than they are in thinking. Trying to convince them of anything counter to what they have been told is a most difficult job.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

Petschau
Member
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:48 am

Postby Petschau » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:22 pm)

Your flyer is a good idea.
The problem is that you will be perceived as "picking on poor Jews" and opening old wounds.
All the Jews have to do is stand there with that doe eyed look and quivering lip they are famous for and you will ostracized by their defenders without the Jew even having to lift a finger.
How many times have we all read on Holocaust Boards "I'm not Jewish-but I believe the Holocaust happened!"

People are completely brainwashed and the rest don't care since it does not affect them personally. I think you would have more luck by showing them how the fraudulent war on terrorism is strictly for the benefit of Israel at the cost of US lives. Then, once their minds are open, you can go into the Holocaust issue.

NovyMir
Member
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:57 am

Postby NovyMir » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:07 pm)

The flyer is good, it may get a few people to think.
But I also agree with Barrington James, we've got a serious problem. The holohoax is really only a symptom in my opinion.
G. Edward Griffin may have the answer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9758430958
Freedom Force International

FrankLee
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby FrankLee » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:24 pm)

ASMarques wrote:
FrankLee wrote:As an example, I've knocked together a little flyer that I will be posting in public places. I would value any comments or suggestions for this flyer and anyone is of course welcome to print it.


Excellent flyer. I would add a few addresses for specific introductory materials such as the very effective IHR leaflets. They can be found on several revisionist sites such as:
http://www.ihr.org/main/leaflets.shtml
http://www.codoh.com/info/infoihr/ihrleafdex.html

Most people who may be curious about your flyer won't care enough to go to much trouble, but they may look for the quick facts, if you underline the location of that sort of introductory stuff.

Yes I agree that it is important to follow something like this up with some easily digestible references showing important evidence. I actually don't remember reading those links you provided, and have found them very good. I think the ihr ones are a little easier to read and also are better referenced which is important - revisionist scholarship must be meticulous due to the enormous levels of scepticism. I've actually started to take notes so I can summarize what I think are the most convincing points and put them in a very concise form - I've found even the leaflets to be a little verbose for the average TV-addicted citizen. they need something that comes at them like an advertisement, concise and also that holds their attention by being emotive. I think very few people could resist reading my flyer to the end. so I'll try to do that in my spare time.

One thing I was reminded of in the ihr link was the 1985 toronto Zundel trial. I wonder if there is a transcript available of that trial? that would be great to get and would be a good thing to dramatise into a video or play. Anyway perhaps this should be the topic of a new thread (ie off-topic here)?

FrankLee
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby FrankLee » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:54 pm)

It's good to see a positive reaction to the aggressive nature of the flyer. I thought people might say "you can't insult people like that, you have to treat them with great respect etc etc". Ive had some very bad experiences of ostracism and persecution locally due to merely privately expressed revisionist opinions, so I no longer think most people deserve my respect and I'm sick of being put on the defensive by inferior mindless conformists.
But I find your reactions are defeatist. That isn't necessarily a criticism, since maybe you are right and in any case who could blame anyone for feeling that it is hopeless at this stage.
I don't think we really know for sure how hopeless or otherwise it really is, psychology and mass-psychology are very poorly understood. the other thing is, I am convinced that the only people that are worth bothering with are what we might call the "awareness elite" - that percentage of people - it might be 10, 20, or even 40% - who are able to think for themselves and who believe that knowing the truth however painful, is more important than believing what is convenient. Actually I think it's probably only about 10 to 18% from what I've personally seen (even though 40% of US citizens apparently consistently opposed the Bush senior Iraq invasion which is very surprising if true).

This minority are the ones who, if they reach a consensus on something like the holocaust, will turn the heads of the rest of the bleating and hysterical sheep. That belief gives me much more optimism.
Even if we think it's probably hopeless we should try these sort of things, for our peace of mind and self-respect if nothing else - then we'll know we at least tried. That is why the famous revisionists (and guys like the one who made the 1/3 of holocaust videos) are so admirable, to keep striving against seemingly impossible odds. I hope to use them as an inspiration for my relatively puny efforts. Also if I can do things like this and concentrate on trying to enjoy them rather than seeing them as a thankless chore maybe that will make them easier to do and more likely that I'll actually get around to it (maybe this could be called the Zen of activism??). If thousands do just little things it adds up to a mighty force for change.

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:48 am)

FrankLee wrote:One thing I was reminded of in the ihr link was the 1985 toronto Zundel trial. I wonder if there is a transcript available of that trial?


No complete transcript in publication, as far as I know, but you'll get a good account of the 1988 'False News' Trial of Zündel here:
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/falsenews.toc.html

Highly readable and very effective.

User avatar
diaz52
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:07 pm

Postby diaz52 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:37 am)

FrankLee wrote:That is why the famous revisionists (and guys like the one who made the 1/3 of holocaust videos) are so admirable, to keep striving against seemingly impossible odds. I hope to use them as an inspiration for my relatively puny efforts. Also if I can do things like this and concentrate on trying to enjoy them rather than seeing them as a thankless chore maybe that will make them easier to do and more likely that I'll actually get around to it (maybe this could be called the Zen of activism??). If thousands do just little things it adds up to a mighty force for change.


Excellent post, FrankLee. I couldn't agree more. I want to add some more about the "One Third of the Holocaust" video, and the "Nazi Shrunken Heads" video, as both are really amazing works on many different levels. Both are very intelligently put together and fascinating, not just to someone interested in the Holocaust as we are obvsiouly on this forum, but for others not normally interested in history in general or the Holohoax in particular. I know that as I've seen its effect on people. And I like how the film-makers clearly had some fun with it- as they point out the many silly and ridiculous aspects of the Holohoax fable- and they score so many excellent points throughout both films. If we are ever going to get anywhere we need more films such as these. David Coles's and Bradley's movie where David interviews F. Piper is similarly an excellent movie, though the production quality isnt as high as the aforementioned movies. But David's personality shines thru in this movie, as does his sense of humor, and as in the two aforementioned movies, this adds to the presentation of the material. Now the fact that the production quality is poor shoudn't matter, as Cole's video is excellent in its content, but production qualiy will matter to some folks- mostly the unthinking majority as you mentioned in your post. Some will no doubt see it as having less legitimacy because of the lower production quality. But the bottom line is that movies and TV are truly powerful. Why do you suppose Jews have come to dominate so thoroughly TV and Hollywood? This wasn't an accident. They understand the power of motion pictures to change peoples attitudes, and to change entire cultures to suit their values; and so they have changed America- most on this forum would agree this change was not for the better. We need to use the technology thats available to us via the internet and computers to create more of these kinds of quality revisionist movies. And to whoever made the "One Third" and the "Nazi Shrunken Heads" videos, let me just say thank you very much for your efforts. Your movies have meant a lot to a lot of people, and I know for a fact have gotten some people thinking critically for the first time in their lives about the establishment's Holocaust story. And thank you to Bradley and David for making your excellent "David Cole interviews F. Piper" video as well. We need to start taking advantage of the power of this medium if we are ever going to move forward.
-You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
-The establishment can't control the web, and the control of information through all means but one, is no control at all.

John Boyle
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:22 pm

Postby John Boyle » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:27 pm)

What has happened with the opening up of Bad Arolsen and its records?? Seems like a big nothing so far! You would think there would be an explosion coming out of that place!

Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

Postby Breker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:49 pm)

John Boyle wrote:What has happened with the opening up of Bad Arolsen and its records?? Seems like a big nothing so far! You would think there would be an explosion coming out of that place!

We have seen numerous stories exalting the Arolsen archives, but we have not seen a single example of proof for gas chambers or mass murder. Obviously, there is nothing at Arolsen to back up the claims. Talk is cheap.
Breker

User avatar
ASMarques
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:47 pm

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:02 am)

Breker wrote:Obviously, there is nothing at Arolsen to back up the claims. Talk is cheap.


The full relevance of the Arolsen records -- if and when they are really open to objective investigators, and provided they have not been tampered with beyond recovery -- would be statistical, and the most important hidden data would concern the movement of people through the Reinhardt camps to the East.

FrankLee
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby FrankLee » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:07 am)

diaz52 wrote:Excellent post, FrankLee. I couldn't agree more. I want to add some more about the "One Third of the Holocaust" video, and the "Nazi Shrunken Heads" video, as both are really amazing works on many different levels. Both are very intelligently put together and fascinating, not just to someone interested in the Holocaust as we are obvsiouly on this forum, but for others not normally interested in history in general or the Holohoax in particular. I know that as I've seen its effect on people. And I like how the film-makers clearly had some fun with it- as they point out the many silly and ridiculous aspects of the Holohoax fable- and they score so many excellent points throughout both films. If we are ever going to get anywhere we need more films such as these. David Coles's and Bradley's movie where David interviews F. Piper is similarly an excellent movie, though the production quality isnt as high as the aforementioned movies. But David's personality shines thru in this movie, as does his sense of humor, and as in the two aforementioned movies, this adds to the presentation of the material. Now the fact that the production quality is poor shoudn't matter, as Cole's video is excellent in its content, but production qualiy will matter to some folks- mostly the unthinking majority as you mentioned in your post. Some will no doubt see it as having less legitimacy because of the lower production quality. But the bottom line is that movies and TV are truly powerful. Why do you suppose Jews have come to dominate so thoroughly TV and Hollywood? This wasn't an accident. They understand the power of motion pictures to change peoples attitudes, and to change entire cultures to suit their values; and so they have changed America- most on this forum would agree this change was not for the better. We need to use the technology thats available to us via the internet and computers to create more of these kinds of quality revisionist movies. And to whoever made the "One Third" and the "Nazi Shrunken Heads" videos, let me just say thank you very much for your efforts. Your movies have meant a lot to a lot of people, and I know for a fact have gotten some people thinking critically for the first time in their lives about the establishment's Holocaust story. And thank you to Bradley and David for making your excellent "David Cole interviews F. Piper" video as well. We need to start taking advantage of the power of this medium if we are ever going to move forward.

Hear hear. We have to play the game of catching the public's fickle attention - it's the marketting age. So where is the shrunken heads video available?

teapreacher
Member
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:01 pm

Postby teapreacher » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:44 pm)

Here it is....
http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/n ... nkenheads/

Great set of films on that site.

RevisionistsRus continues to put more very interesting revisionist material out on youtube week by week too...
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?u ... stsRus&p=r


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hektor and 7 guests