Bradley Smith challenges Norman Finkelstein

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PLAYWRIGHT
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Postby PLAYWRIGHT » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:17 am)

ASMarques wrote:Playwright, I agree with most of your statement, with some marginal disagreement on one account: I've read a good deal about the supposed Congo genocide by Leopold's Belgians, including the tract by Mark Twain and a few historical pieces from the larger campaign behind it, mentioning the evidence (a large part of it anecdotal in nature) brought out by a very few individuals -- such as Roger Casement [*], well-intended but very likely prone to exaggeration -- and I believe the whole thing was, and continues to be, blown out of all proportion.


Indeed, there were no genocidal aspects to the Congo Corvee - Leopold and his crew weren't trying to exterminate the natives, just exploit them.

But while all massacres are exaggerated - have you noticed the claimed death toll from the Tutsi massacre a few years ago has been quietly dropping? - I have to wonder if the Corvee is really "blown all out of proportion". Leopold and Company had 30 some years to engage in their crimes, which must have resulted in a colossal death toll. Whole villages on the Congo River were cleared of males by Leopold's press gangs, which means that deaths by slave labor have to have been compounded by deaths from starvation, what with the prime breadwinners out digging Leopold's rocks.

I haven't read Casement, and Mark Twain's accounts reflect his usual flair for hyperbole. But with three decades of slave labor, and not too much changed afterwards (remember the uranium ore slave camps of the 1940's), I just have a gut feeling that this time the exaggerations may be closer to the mark than usual.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:47 pm)

PLAYWRIGHT wrote:But while all massacres are exaggerated ...

'Exaggerated' is usually an understatement in these matters.

A recent prime example is the whole Kosovo/Serbian story. Largely through forensic studies of the alleged 'mass' grave sites and not finding mass graves where they were alleged, it's now known that the relative few bodies found have been shown to be battle deaths. The huge numbers alleged are completely unsupportable. Excavations have been damning of the bogus claim of 'genocide' against the Serbians. Albanians were/are the real ethnic cleansers of the region.
ex:
'Where are all the bodies buried?'
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve3/1023par.html

Apply this to the 'holocaust' nonsense and learn.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Rapier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:21 pm)

PotPie wrote:How can the west be "Nazified" when the demographics are constantly tipping in the favor of non-whites? That's why Jewish groups so love 3rd world migration into historically white countries.


Think "Soup Nazi."

Nazi has become an allusion to absolute power. In this instance I think the author meant that lesser educated the population the more power to the elite.
Last edited by Rapier on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby AbuYusra » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:05 pm)

I just want to thank the moderators for this site for enlightening my mind and for telling me the truth about the hoaxcaust
thanks so much again
I'm not an Anti-Semite...... I love the Arabs I just hate people claiming to be Semites when they clearly are not

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:39 am)

AbuYusra wrote:I just want to thank the moderators for this site for enlightening my mind and for telling me the truth about the hoaxcaust
thanks so much again

Our pleasure. It's not that difficult.
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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Bankdraft » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu May 01, 2008 8:12 pm)

PotPie wrote:How can the west be "Nazified" when the demographics are constantly tipping in the favor of non-whites? That's why Jewish groups so love 3rd world migration into historically white countries.


One of the more salient points I have ever read. It's gonna get worse when Obama gets elected.
Some stories are true that never happened. ~ Elie Wiesel ~

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Postby nathan » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri May 02, 2008 5:42 am)

Those of us (here a small minority) who admire Norman Finkelstein will be interested in the middle section of the following link.

http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein08222007.html

Butz’s Hoax of the Century poses many challenges which are hard to answer. So it is odd that NF should remember being disturbed by a challenge which is easy to answer. Did Butz himself actually issue this challenge? As far as I know the Communist (and IMT) figures for Auschwitz were not officially lowered until long after Hoax was published. I do not remember Butz anywhere suggesting that anyone had arrived at the Six MIillion figure (of which four million within the camp system) by adding up official government estimates for the various camps. That is the only method which would require them to lower their total when they revised one of their estimates. The basic method of calculating Six Million, in so far as there was anything resembling a method , was to assume that all Jews counted in pre-war censuses would be murdered, or had been murdered, unless they could be counted as survivors of emigration or labour.

Anyone curious to know Finkelsteins view on the Lobby should read
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/17229

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Postby Rapier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun May 04, 2008 2:05 am)

nathan wrote:Those of us (here a small minority) who admire Norman Finkelstein will be interested in the middle section of the following link.

http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein08222007.html

Butz’s Hoax of the Century poses many challenges which are hard to answer. So it is odd that NF should remember being disturbed by a challenge which is easy to answer. Did Butz himself actually issue this challenge? As far as I know the Communist (and IMT) figures for Auschwitz were not officially lowered until long after Hoax was published. I do not remember Butz anywhere suggesting that anyone had arrived at the Six MIillion figure (of which four million within the camp system) by adding up official government estimates for the various camps. That is the only method which would require them to lower their total when they revised one of their estimates. The basic method of calculating Six Million, in so far as there was anything resembling a method , was to assume that all Jews counted in pre-war censuses would be murdered, or had been murdered, unless they could be counted as survivors of emigration or labour.

Anyone curious to know Finkelsteins view on the Lobby should read
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/17229


What better way to diffuse question of questioning of the Holocaust than to speak ill of and spank todays Holocaust profiteers?

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Postby Mannstein » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun May 04, 2008 1:08 pm)

AsMarques wrote:
I disagree. I don't know what "the American public" is. Is it "the American people" in disguise? Is it some sort of immortal entity supposedly responsible for all sorts of crimes by a certain class of dead people, as in the "German public owe a certain ethno-religious minority an apology"? Present-day Americans are not responsible for the Nuremberg farce, any more than they are for the WW2 bombing campaigns. The ones who promoted it -- most of them are dead by now -- were, and only History can now judge them.

If you had said "those folks who continue voting for what Bush and his minions stand for owe a moral apology to the victimized people of a certain invaded Arab country" then you might have a point, and I certainly would agree with the idea of putting Bush & Company on trial for precise and well-established crimes -- even though I'm not a great fan of the Hague tribunal, but, of course, we might (may?) in time be able to change it into something more close to the idea of non-political impartial justice.


By American public what was meant was those in the US media ie. the opinion makers, as well as a large number of private individuals who insist to this day that contemporary Germans are guilty of alleged crimes committed more than 60 years ago.

The guilt trip started with the upper German leadership after 1945, then came the mid level echelon, followed by the small fry. Now it's the entire country. Some folks have made it a career hunting down geriatric camp guards. The OSI staff of our Justice Department as well as the Wiesenthalers in LA come to mind. Lately the guilt has been laid on European countries, Christian churches and is even coming to haunt this country. It's grotesque.

Recall we failed to bomb the railway lines leading to Auschwitz. There is a federal case in the works for our sins of omission for which this generation of US tax payer may end up paying $40 billion in reparations.

A good friend of mine who was inducted and sent to Germany in the mid 1950s by the US Army told me recently that the first thing he was shown along with his fellow recruits after they arrived in Germany was the horrors of the gas chambers and concentration camps. The kind of stuff that is rehashed on the Hitler Channel every other week. I'm sure your familiar. He claims to be a WWII history buff of the Greatest Generation as windbag and scribbler Tom Brokaw would say. He is also a true believer in the new secular religion so much so that when I happened to mention that not everything in old propaganda films is the truth he became sour.

Is it any wonder that a great number of Americans feel themselves morally superior and point an accusing finger at the other even to the present.

Or are we applying a yardstick of justice to ourselves which is not identical to the one applied to others?

The reason for not signing on to the International Court treaty is that our political leaders know very well how perverted the IMT really was. They don't want to find themselves as defendants in a similar court.

As President Truman said of the Nuremberg defendants, "Give them a fair trial and hang them."

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Postby BradleySmith » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun May 04, 2008 5:19 pm)

I like this quote. Heard it before. Can you source it?

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Postby Rapier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue May 06, 2008 4:25 am)

Mannstein wrote:
Recall we failed to bomb the railway lines leading to Auschwitz. There is a federal case in the works for our sins of omission for which this generation of US tax payer may end up paying $40 billion in reparations.
"



Please provide some more info on this. I wasn't able to locate it with google.

Thanks


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