How much does a laboratory analysis cost?

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Mythos
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How much does a laboratory analysis cost?

Postby Mythos » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:15 am)

Not that I'm intending to do such a thing, but just out of curiosity how much, about, would it cost?

I mean of course: If one would take dozens of samples from the walls of Auschwitz (Krema II, barracks and disinfestation chambers), and had them analysed in an analytical laboratory for Zyklon B residues, what would that cost? How much would a DIN method analysis cost? How about the Krakow Forensic Institute's 1994 method (that could not detect ferro cyanides)?

I think it would be interesting to see someone trying to verify that Krakow 1994 study. I bet that the results would be something quite different.

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:14 am)

"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby ps » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:32 am)


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Postby Mythos » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:08 am)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:About 40 EUR: http://www.ewe.de/download/pdf/2007-03_ ... alytik.pdf
That cheap, really? I thought it would be extremely expensive... So if I would take about 100 samples from the walls, floors and ceilings of the disinfestation rooms, and from the alleged gas chambers; and had them analysed with the DIN method and the Krakow 1994 method, it would cost about 80 euros?

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Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:40 pm)

Mythos wrote:
ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:About 40 EUR: http://www.ewe.de/download/pdf/2007-03_ ... alytik.pdf
That cheap, really? I thought it would be extremely expensive... So if I would take about 100 samples from the walls, floors and ceilings of the disinfestation rooms, and from the alleged gas chambers; and had them analysed with the DIN method and the Krakow 1994 method, it would cost about 80 euros?


Yes, 80 EUR per sample.
For 100 samples 8,000 EUR.
"Everything has already been said, but not yet by everyone." - Karl Valentin

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Postby Mythos » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:00 pm)

ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:
Mythos wrote:
ClaudiaRothenbach wrote:About 40 EUR: http://www.ewe.de/download/pdf/2007-03_ ... alytik.pdf
That cheap, really? I thought it would be extremely expensive... So if I would take about 100 samples from the walls, floors and ceilings of the disinfestation rooms, and from the alleged gas chambers; and had them analysed with the DIN method and the Krakow 1994 method, it would cost about 80 euros?


Yes, 80 EUR per sample.
For 100 samples 8,000 EUR.
Ok, thanks.

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Postby astro3 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:10 am)

I found a similar price: corresponding with a cyanide expert via the 'www.cyantists.com/index.html' site, he told me that one could get a top-quality analysis done at a commercial laboratory called ACZ Laboratories in Steamboat Colorado. He explained, 'You would want to run total cyanide by distillation with a colorimetric finish using the standard USEPA full or midi flask procedures. The cost will be about $50 USD a piece without shipping.'

So, if we did a mimimum of ten samples, that would be $500. That colorimetric procedure would be equivalent to the DIN procedure. One could try to ask them to measure or separate out the soluble cyanide if you really wanted something equivalent to the Polish method.

Its great that on the 20th anniversary of Leuchter's sampling, you are considering this matter. If anyone can get over to the site, I'm all in favour of writing to the Auschwitz authorities and requesting permission to take a few more samples. They can only say 'No', but let's not prejudge that matter in advance. But, forget 100 samples - we might possibly get permission for a dozen or maybe 15! If anyone could get over there I could ask my university chemistry department if they would in some sense support the analysis - that sort of thing makes it a bit harder for the authorities to say no.

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Postby Mythos » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:17 am)

astro3 wrote:I found a similar price: corresponding with a cyanide expert via the 'www.cyantists.com/index.html' site, he told me that one could get a top-quality analysis done at a commercial laboratory called ACZ Laboratories in Steamboat Colorado. He explained, 'You would want to run total cyanide by distillation with a colorimetric finish using the standard USEPA full or midi flask procedures. The cost will be about $50 USD a piece without shipping.'

So, if we did a mimimum of ten samples, that would be $500. That colorimetric procedure would be equivalent to the DIN procedure. One could try to ask them to measure or separate out the soluble cyanide if you really wanted something equivalent to the Polish method.

Its great that on the 20th anniversary of Leuchter's sampling, you are considering this matter. If anyone can get over to the site, I'm all in favour of writing to the Auschwitz authorities and requesting permission to take a few more samples. They can only say 'No', but let's not prejudge that matter in advance. But, forget 100 samples - we might possibly get permission for a dozen or maybe 15! If anyone could get over there I could ask my university chemistry department if they would in some sense support the analysis - that sort of thing makes it a bit harder for the authorities to say no.
Some day when Im a rich man (I live in Finland btw.)

I very much doubt that Auschwitz museum would allow to do that. It's too bad that the doors into the disinfestation rooms BW 5a & 5b are all locked nowdays - believe me, I really did try to go in from every possible door. However, at least the samples from the outside walls are accessible for anyone. And theoretically speaking, since the Auschwitz museum does not lock its gates during nights, and since there are few gates and holes in the fences that are always open, and no people during the night time, it would be [theoretically] possible for anyone to obtain the samples during nights. When I was there, at 9 pm, in the evening, I didnt even see any guards anywhere.

But what I'm extremely interested concerning all this, is the fact that Rudolf took two samples inside the disinfestation rooms that had white colouring and they too had high concentrations of ferrocyanide residues:

"On point 3: Lack of Cyanide binding in white plaster samples:
My test samples 19a and 19b show that samples that show no blue dyeing can also have high levels of cyanide. They came from the Birkenau delousing chamber BW 5b. Both samples were gray to brown-gray but had cyanide levels of 1860 mg CN-/kg in the outer layer of plaster and 3880 mg CN-/kg in a deeper layer."
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/cq/leuchter.html

It was Green's argument that with DIN method you can only detect cyanides from blue Zyklon B (ferrocyanide) residues on the walls. So then he argued that if there are blue Zyklon B residues inside the alleged gas chamber of Krema II, then it's useless to use DIN method.

HOWEVER if high amounts of cyanide can be also detected accurately where the walls arent blue, in the disinfestation rooms, then Green's argument would be completely false. It would also be interesting to determine whether the white/gray roofs of BW 5a & 5b, would show high amounts of cyanide residues, since it is mostly the roofs at Krema II ruins that are intact. If so, this (with the fact that the alleged gas chamber at Krema II would have been 10 times more likely to produce Prussian blue) would completely end the question about Zyklon B residues in Auschwitz.

That Krakow 1994 study would only be interesting to repeat, so that one could completely end the argument about the alleged "accuracy" of its' method, by simply producing the results that would show about as much residues in prisoners' barracks as in all other places (disinfestation rooms and 'gas chambers'), IMO.

Some day...

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Postby Focus » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:06 pm)

What DIN method are you suggesting? A we talking titration or spectography? Thank you.

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Postby astro3 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am)

The DIN method will measure all insoluble cyanide, irrespective of colour. Experts may remain unsure of exactly how Mother Nature turned the cyanide blue (which only happened some years after the War) but its to do with complex ferrocyanides that have both ferric and ferrous ions present. I agree that Green’s argument is rather irrelevant here – as indeed is most of his work.

You should not have to pay for doing the sample analyses, if you went over and took them. I think there were suggestions from the Iran conference last year that some funding for research could be available. The cost of doing these analyses is small compared with the great value of what we are here discussing. And, if I may say so, you seem to have a clear awareness of just where the samples could be most usefully taken. Come on, let's do it!

One could ask a laboratory to separate out the soluble portion of the cyanide, and measuring that should give results comparable to the Krakow 1994 study, see eg my comment 9.5.07 on the Cyanide-chemistry at Auchwitz thread.

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Postby Mythos » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:26 am)

astro3 wrote:The DIN method will measure all insoluble cyanide, irrespective of colour. Experts may remain unsure of exactly how Mother Nature turned the cyanide blue (which only happened some years after the War) but its to do with complex ferrocyanides that have both ferric and ferrous ions present. I agree that Green’s argument is rather irrelevant here – as indeed is most of his work.

You should not have to pay for doing the sample analyses, if you went over and took them. I think there were suggestions from the Iran conference last year that some funding for research could be available. The cost of doing these analyses is small compared with the great value of what we are here discussing. And, if I may say so, you seem to have a clear awareness of just where the samples could be most usefully taken. Come on, let's do it!

One could ask a laboratory to separate out the soluble portion of the cyanide, and measuring that should give results comparable to the Krakow 1994 study, see eg my comment 9.5.07 on the Cyanide-chemistry at Auchwitz thread.
Sounds enticing. But we would propably need a team of 2 or 3 guys, or more. One having a video camera and recording it all, one chiseling the samples, and one sealing and marking them properly and accurately. If it were done this way, with more than one person, it woud certainly make collecting the samples more accurate and convincing. One person could more easily forget to mark important facts, for example. And, one person could also "get caught" more likely [assuming he's taking the samples without permission]. It would be more convincing if there were more than just one person. And of course if there would be a chemist, or someone with some kinds of credentials, it certainly would be more credible than just "a bunch of amateurs".

Money for anykind of lab analysis I certainly do not have, so it would be up to someone else to finance it. If someone would have the money, it certainly would be interesting to do: 1) Krakow 1994, with about ten or more samples, and 2) DIN [or something similar] to analyse the roofs and gray walls inside the BW 5a & 5b, with about 20 samples.

If someone manages to get somekind of team together to do this kind of thing (experts or not), I certainly would be interested in hearing more...

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Postby Focus » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:10 am)

astro 3 says:
"The DIN method will measure all insoluble cyanide, irrespective of colour.

Let me clarify something for you. DIN is to Europe what A.S.T.M is to the USA. It is an org. that controls testing procedures, methods and specifications. So I ask again, what method?

astro 3 steps in it:
" Experts may remain unsure of exactly how Mother Nature turned the cyanide blue (which only happened some years after the War)"

I don't know where your information comes from, but I'd switch sources. This is physical science and the properties are well known. Are you using information from Rat Face Roth or the pathetic Crakow smear?

astro 3 opines:
"but its to do with complex ferrocyanides that have both ferric and ferrous ions present. I agree that Green’s argument is rather irrelevant here – as indeed is most of his work."

Lest I remind you that you are running with the big dogs here, you betray your ignorance [above] and don't even know how. As for Rich Green - he is a dishonest chemist. As I chased him out of town he hollered over his shoulder . . .

"Your claim that a revision of the 4 million number necessitates a revision in the 6 million number is not proven by the fact that people make mistakes." Rich Green


I ask again, what method?

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Postby Breker » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:23 pm)

"Your claim that a revision of the 4 million number necessitates a revision in the 6 million number is not proven by the fact that people make mistakes." Rich Green

It's painfully obvious that the daft mythology and the less than honest Mr. Green have been convincingly refuted in this thread, among others;
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4111
entitled: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
Cheers to astro3.
Breker

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Postby astro3 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:33 am)

To answer Focus’s question, it’s the DIN 38-405, 13 method, obtainable from www.mybeuth.de. As far as I can tell it describes two alternative methods, one a colourimetric titration method, ‘titrimetric determination by means of silver nitrate’ and then also ‘photometric determination’ using a special spectral absorbtion coefficient. The DIN method would determine both ‘readily liberatable cyanide’ and ‘total cyanide’.

how did Focus 'chase Rich Green out of town'? I was not ever able to find an address to write to him.

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Postby Focus » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:05 am)

Forget the wet lab titration. It's subject to error and can be forensically challenged. X-ray spectrography is the only way to go and the same samples can be check tested in reference labs here and abroad.

Your chances of getting permission to sample are about as slim as getting a coin to land on its edge. You couldn't get within a mile of the place with GPR or concrete/rebar testing apparatus.

They have a 'truth' to protect and will stop at nothing from letting the real truth from getting out. Applied science to the holocaust is like light to a vampire. :evil:

Best of luck, however. I feel you are rather new to this, young blood is needed.

Focus


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