Atheists and the "Holocaust" cult

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ASMarques
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Atheists and the "Holocaust" cult

Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:21 pm)

I've been posting to two threads of comments on Richard Dawkins's site ( http://richarddawkins.net/ ) and I must confess I still manage to be astonished at people's endless capacity to stop thinking and resort to the authority argument whenever the "Holocaust" is mentioned.

Apparently all their arguments fall in two categories: either it's because a court of law told them the historical truth was so-and-so, or else it's because everyone on the other side is "discredited," you know how it goes, Bradley Smith is a bad guy because he was a former media director of the IHR, the IHR is a discredited institute because a court in California declared the Holocaust an indisputable legal fact in the Mermelstein vs. the IHR case, and so on ad nauseam.

I posted several long informative messages and tried to get a factual discussion on concrete historical points going, but the degree of brainlessness of these folks requires other methods I have little patience for. If you are in the "court saying so-and-so doesn't discredit such-and-such because of this and that" mode of dispute, you may like to take a sweep at those guys and bore them back to death.

I started here, with comment 77 (#157227) now going on 414 (#162908):
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2443, ... stions,BBC

And here with comment 88 (#161825), now going on 118 (#162931):
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2472, ... Dawkinsnet

Phew...

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Postby Greg Gerdes » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:39 pm)

A hallmark of self-deceiving cowards is their acceptance of authority as their truth rather than the truth as their authority.

* * * * *

Why do people continue to believe in physical impossibilities even after being confronted with incontrovertible facts that refute them? Because you can’t convince a true believer of anything, for their beliefs are not based on science and reason, they’re based on faith and a deep-seated NEED to believe. Hence, most propaganda isn’t designed to fool the critical thinker, but rather;

Only to give self-deceiving cowards an excuse not to think at all.

* * * * *

NONE ARE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO REFUSE TO SEE

NONE ARE AS HOPELESSLY ENSLAVED

AS THOSE WHO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE FREE

NONE ARE SO DEAF AS THOSE WHO REFUSE TO HEAR

THE TRUTH THAT REFUTES THEIR DOGMA

AND THE LIES THAT THEY HOLD SO DEAR

NONE ARE SO CRAVEN AS THOSE WHO HIDE FROM THE TRUTH

AND NOTHING IS WORSE THAN A COWARD

WHO TEACHES PROPAGANDA AND LIES TO OUR YOUTH

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:03 am)

Greg Gerdes wrote:A hallmark of self-deceiving cowards is their acceptance of authority as their truth rather than the truth as their authority.

Actually if you don't take them too seriously you may have some innocent fun. For instance:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2472, ... net#163049

I find it expedient to alternate discussions, aiming at their weak points and returning to the "Holocaust" thing. It's not difficult. They're constantly at it:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2443, ... BBC#159348

It's kind of a jack-in-the-box popping up everytime they start a new debate.They can't resist it. Every theme brings a "Holocaust" quickie. All you have to do is wait a couple of minutes in ambush. It can become tiresome, though...

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:05 am)

That thread is about a discussion between Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss. Since I haven't really watched this debate, I better stay away from my comments at this time.
I would like to come back to it though later.
The Holocaust hoaxsters exaggerate and embellish a 60+ year old event in order to abuse the Palestinians and rob them of their land, while claiming a free pass for their barbaric conduct on account of the "holocaust".

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:26 pm)

ASMarques

You certainly have a handful to do in debating the Holocaust in those threats. You seem to be the only holocaust skeptic among a rather large group of participants, people who like to look at themselves as intellectuals with academic backgrounds.

I have a similar experience debating it even among my own relatives. They may turn away silently, but I can see it in their faces: "The old guy (me) is now really loosing it."

My general understanding of the jewish holocaust is that the Germans physically exterminated about 6 million jews, half in homicidal gas chambes, and 5 or 6 million non-jewish civilians. That is how I understand it. And this is shown on TV, in newspapers and books.

Public holocaust discussions on TV are taboo and not allowed, "since everything is proven beyond any doubt"

And probably 99% of the people are solid holocaust believers anyway.
What do you think you can achieve by debating these holocaust believers in those two threads? Change their mind? Their way of thinking?

Tell me.
The Holocaust hoaxsters exaggerate and embellish a 60+ year old event in order to abuse the Palestinians and rob them of their land, while claiming a free pass for their barbaric conduct on account of the "holocaust".

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:59 pm)

Personally I think that you need some help over there.

I am not intellectual nor am I an academic, I am a registered engineer.

It may be a little late to step in now. Let me toss it around a little.

fge
The Holocaust hoaxsters exaggerate and embellish a 60+ year old event in order to abuse the Palestinians and rob them of their land, while claiming a free pass for their barbaric conduct on account of the "holocaust".

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:16 am)

Sailor wrote regarding ASMarques' work at the atheist forum:

Personally I think that you need some help over there.



I'm not sure how this was meant, but after reading several posts by the true believers at that forum, the only reason for ASMarques needing any help - if at all - is the ganging up going on over there, nothing more.

Aside from that, they are truly a bunch of ridiculous and childish ignorants for the most part, who have no arguments but name calling and appeals to persons in a position of "authority". It's interesting to note how most of them don't really know even the "official" version of the hoax, let alone revisionist arguments. Notice how several of them have referred to camps such as Dachau and Belsen as death camps. Another idiot spoke of "american sevicemen" as witnesses of the alleged mass murder.

However, we should not be too hard on these brain-washed fools lest we forget how many of us believed some of the very same things.
I, for one, when a believer and ignorant of the nuts and bolts of this so called holocaust, also thought I had seen photos and neelsreels of gassed victims when, in fact, I had seen the result of raging epidemics and exhaustion, caused in no small amount, by the crumbling of Geman infrastructure and overcrowding of the western camps in the closing months of the war. People are indeed very strongly impressed by such imagery.

Great posts btw, ASMarques.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:49 pm)

That thread is about a discussion between Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss.

Yes, and a rather peculiar format for a "discussion," simply two guys patting each other on the shoulders. Anyway, I posted mainly on another thread: "Richard Dawkins on the Great Questions."

You certainly have a handful to do in debating the Holocaust in those threats. You seem to be the only holocaust skeptic among a rather large group of participants, people who like to look at themselves as intellectuals with academic backgrounds.

Most of the loud-speaking rank-and-file are nothing of the sort. And the real big fish avoid troubled waters, but they follow what's going on in the comments columns. That said, I find the Dawkins site an unusually tolerant one. No one even attempted to have me expelled, flagged or blacklisted.

My general understanding of the jewish holocaust is that the Germans physically exterminated about 6 million jews, half in homicidal gas chambes, and 5 or 6 million non-jewish civilians. That is how I understand it. And this is shown on TV, in newspapers and books.

Yes, it's the current definition. I always say "I deny the 'Holocaust' (extermination, gas chambers, approx. 6 million Jews), since all the allegedly historical defining facts are false: no attempt of extermination, no gas chambers, and no 6 million Jews, not even approximately, since the real number of Jewish victims from all causes for the whole duration of the war, must be close to the one million mark."

Public holocaust discussions on TV are taboo and not allowed, "since everything is proven beyond any doubt"

True, but the You Tube resource is great because it allows one to closely look at the allegations in the near past and then compare. Very effective, even if no one on the opposite side will admit this. Note how everybody was talking, on the one hand about how great the 70s TV series "The Ascent of Man" by Jacob Bronowski was, and on the other hand (on a different thread) how the Auschwitz figures were always known to have been 1,5 million, except to the idiotic communist Poles who made up the 4 million in the memorial slabs. Then you post this ultra-silly bit and all the Bronowski incensing comes to an embarassed stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mIfatdNqBA

The same is achieved with the "Smith, Cole & Shermer on Phil Donahue" clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7S8zDDzPNI

No faster way to expose Shermer as the (very weak) snake-oil peddler he is. And, of course, all those howling human soap eyewitnesses are a great illustration of the extraordinary concept of "eyewitness" in "Holocaust" context. The raging mob of active commentators will always foam at the mouth and not even register what they themselves are seeing, but more people are reading.

And probably 99% of the people are solid holocaust believers anyway.
What do you think you can achieve by debating these holocaust believers in those two threads? Change their mind? Their way of thinking?

Tell me.

Sure. Change is the name of the game, even if the big H is not going away. Neither are we, BTW. The importance of a large widely-read forum shouldn't be measured simply by the reaction of the raging commentators. Many other commentators stay silent. And many more are simply reading. The importance of any forum is usually visible through its ranking position on simple Google searches.

Personally I think that you need some help over there.

Well, not really. Too much aggressive response per se is not useful. I find it easy to keep other discussions going on topics where I happen to agree with the locals. This is usually good politics and it amuses me as well. And little work is involved since all I have to do is quick adaptations of old messages I keep.

What I find really tiresome is the constant "discredit" argument. This is usually a strong weapon on their arsenal and not easy to counter, though, of course, the whole concept that in order to present ideas against a widespread ideology / religion you must first be acknowledged by the courts that validate that same ideology / religion, is an overtly silly one. But not all people will get the point. It's a silly world, I guess.

It may be a little late to step in now. Let me toss it around a little.

Don't worry. I'll sort of keep watch in there. Actually I'm interested in their discussions and I only start posting when I see them using the easy "Holocaust" trick to win favor with the camp followers. Only problem is the damned "discredit" thing. In spite of their "rebel-like" standings, those folks are as politically correct and well-behaved as they come. Courts are sacrosanct to them, be it Nuremberg or California in "Melmerstein vs. the IHR," unless, of course, it's a redneck court against Darwin. I try to use that sort of thing.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:06 pm)

I will not interfere, it is your baby.

But I do find the debates about atheism and theism rather intriguing, considering the extraordinary weakness of the human mind. Try to define "time" or "space", or try to understand the expanding of the universe and the creation of new space. What was there before?

I know that this is off the topic. It just comes to mind.

fge
The Holocaust hoaxsters exaggerate and embellish a 60+ year old event in order to abuse the Palestinians and rob them of their land, while claiming a free pass for their barbaric conduct on account of the "holocaust".

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:40 pm)

Sailor wrote:But I do find the debates about atheism and theism rather intriguing, considering the extraordinary weakness of the human mind.

Most of them don't mean it in the philosophical sense. They mean the parochial gods of earthly religions, the ones with terrestrial biographies, so to say. I mean the same, but I have an open mind as to the wider perspective. IMHO the Abrahamic religions are the greatest disaster that ever befell mankind. The Holocaust cult is simply its latest metamorphosis, one that manages to keep the concept of an elected people and the occurrence of historical miracles while parting with the previously obligatory concept of a divinity, i.e. a new religion well adapted to our time.

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Postby oberststuhlherr » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:17 pm)

You will notice that Richard dawkins's forum gets special mention in my exposé:
Ideological Bigotry on the Internet
"From October 1928 the two largest regular contributors to the Nazi Party were ... of Jewish faith, and one of them the leader of Zionism in Germany." Brüning, 1937

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:59 am)

oberststuhlherr wrote:You will notice that Richard dawkins's forum gets special mention in my exposé:
Ideological Bigotry on the Internet


The photo you mentioned on your censored post to Dawkins's Forum can also be found in the Nizkor archive (eg-07.jpg):
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... en/images/

I believe you're right. It's probably a photo of massacred ethnic Germans:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-07.jpg

I've seen on-line at least two more different photos of the same pit presented as a German crime, as usual with no exact reference as to source, time or place. Alas, I cannot find them any longer.

When looking at WW2 atrocity photos, I use the following rule of thumb: in my opinion, most of the photos one sees of masses of nude corpses in pits that cannot be identified as coming from camps like Belsen, can with reasonable probability be conotated with the mass murders of ethnic Germans at the end of the war, in places like the Sudetes or ex-Yugoslavia.

There is a simple reason for that: going to the trouble of having people completely disrobe themselves requires more than the simple will to dispatch them through expeditious executions under military discipline, as must have been the case with the executions of partisans -- and possibly of civilians considered to be supportive of their actions-- by the Einsatzgruppen. It takes the will to humiliate the victims as well, and that's much more likely to be found in the massacres of Germans performed by the partisans and the roused rabble -- not to speak of the Soviet army that was often given incitement and a free-rein -- at the end of the the War.

Take for instance the Nizkor photos I mention above. The first one, "death-of-piotr-sosnowski.jpg"...
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... nowski.jpg

...is duly referenced as:
______________

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... nowski.ref

Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know: the history of the Holocaust
as told in the United States Holocaust Museum. ISBN O-316-09135-9 (hc).
First edition 1993.

Page 63. Caption to photo reads:
Execution of Piotr Sosnowski, a Polish priest. Piasnica, Poland,
c. 1939. _Main Commission for the Investigation of Nazi War Crimes
in Poland, Warsaw, Poland._
______________

Father Sonowski is presented as a Catholic martyr of the Polish "Holocaust." He is said to have been executed in 1939 but, of course, no mention is ever made of the fact that there was a reason under martial law for his execution, either as a culprit himself, an inciter, or a hostage (I ignore which), in reply to the burning of some barns belonging to ethnic Germans.

I believe this photo may be a fake, for the following reasons: it shows a very unusual angle, with the photographer positioned too near the elbow of one of the shooters, hardly the sort of "artsy" effect you look for during a real shooting event; but mainly because it shows the two men being executed in their jackets, rather than in shirt sleeves. Not decisive, but a strong indication. Clearly, to make execution by rifle fire more effective, the normal thing to do is to order the victims to dress down to their shirts, to avoid the added protection of any coats, objects in pockets etc.. This is what one usually sees in real execution photos.

Note, for instance, photo eg-01.jpg:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-01.jpg

Nizkor's source doesn't give any reference, but most of us will easily recognize it as one of the photos of the alleged mass killings at Libau / Liepaja in Latvia (see, for instance, "Hitler and the Final Solution" by Gerald Fleming, where the photo appears) that, in my opinion, may well have taken place, even if some other photos of the same event in circulation seem to have been faked. Regardless of what one thinks of the allegations, what I want to point out is this is likely an authentic photo of a particularly ugly expeditious shooting that included women and children. But note how they have been made to dress down to their undergarments or light clothing, rather than to completely undress as is often mentioned in the free-for-all orgies of humiliation, rape and killing at the end of the War.

Photo eg-05.jpg may well be what a true execution of partisans by an Einsatzgruppe -- it's hardly news that (more or less legal) executions were indeed one of their functions -- looked like:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-05.jpg

Anyone with some practice of identifying WW2 uniforms will note how the executioners in the photos that show nude victims look definitely neither German, nor German auxiliary. This is particularly clear in photo eg-02.jpg, often seen with another one of the same event (or perhaps posed event, I wouldn't be too sure about this one).
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-02.jpg

Unlike this photo, the ones I have seen of the pit you mentioned looked very real. It's a pity that their true origin has not been established. Obviously the people who wish to prolong the "Holocaust" hoax never give away their sources, and still less the true meaning of many of the photos they use for that purpose, but it's likely that the German organizations of expellees have access to that sort of information. Alas, they exist under German law and are not free to present their evidence.

It would be most useful to have those photos truthfully captioned and presented as evidence of the dishonest "Holocaust" propaganda.

Massacres of Germans in Yugoslavia, both by the partisans and the Soviets who mass-murdered prisoners, seem to have been frequent, though they are not as well-known to revisionists as the ones that occurred all over Czechoslovakia and the eastern territories annexed by Poland.

Only recently I was reading the very interesting biographical narrative "Eastern Approaches" by the late Sir Fitzroy Maclean, who, as an SAS combatant, had an important role as Churchill's personal connection to Tito, and I noticed how he described meeting widespread evidence of massacres of Germans prisoners by the Soviets, on his final trip from the mountains to liberated Belgrade. Though he obviously didn't approve of it, I was amazed at the almost nonchalant tone of his description (pages 507-508 of my Penguin 1991 edition).

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:36 am)

ASMarques wrote:
oberststuhlherr wrote:You will notice that Richard dawkins's forum gets special mention in my exposé:
Ideological Bigotry on the Internet


The photo you mentioned on your censored post to Dawkins's Forum can also be found in the Nizkor archive (eg-07.jpg):
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... en/images/

I believe you're right. It's probably a photo of massacred ethnic Germans:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-07.jpg

I've seen on-line at least two more different photos of the same pit presented as a German crime, as usual with no exact reference as to source, time or place. Alas, I cannot find them any longer.....

Then of course there is the question whether these are actually real photos at all. Funny that Nizkor doesn't address the issue of fake pictures anywhere on their site.

As for atheism and the Holocaust, there seems to be a connection. It goes like debates "Can there be a god, after the Holocaust?" - "Where was god in Auschwitz?"

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:01 am)

Hektor wrote:As for atheism and the Holocaust, there seems to be a connection. It goes like debates "Can there be a god, after the Holocaust?" - "Where was god in Auschwitz?"


True. I often present the case in this way:

"It's interesting to note how many intelligent people with a skeptical turn of mind miss the fact that the 'Holocaust' cult is indeed an aggiornamento of Judaism. It's really the return of the mother of all abrahamic religions with new subtleties, such as the abandonment of Yahweh ('where was he in Auschwitz?') and a ready made formula to bring the Christian flock into the fold (Christians love to beat their breasts, ask forgiveness and pay for all sorts of imaginary sins). The only ingredients you need for a religion are absolute certainty through hearsay (or alternatively something called 'a revelation'), a refusal to put your beliefs to the test through the examinination of the facts in any rational way, and generally a degree of social pressure to numb your mind into hibernation concerning the articles of faith. The collective leitmotiv I hear, 'lots of people swear the «Holocaust» miracles did occur', is a very weak justification for belief, indeed an amazing one for thinking people who have observed how religion puts intelligence and simple common sense to sleep."

From comments in the same vein here:

Comment #157227
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge2#157227
Comment #158237
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge7#158237
Comment #158965
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge8#158965
Comment #160211
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge9#160211
Comment #161825
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge2#161825
Comment #161895
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge2#161895
Comment #171358
http://richarddawkins.net/articleCommen ... ge3#171358

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:59 pm)

Hektor wrote:
ASMarques wrote:
oberststuhlherr wrote:You will notice that Richard dawkins's forum gets special mention in my exposé:
Ideological Bigotry on the Internet


The photo you mentioned on your censored post to Dawkins's Forum can also be found in the Nizkor archive (eg-07.jpg):
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... en/images/

I believe you're right. It's probably a photo of massacred ethnic Germans:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-07.jpg

I've seen on-line at least two more different photos of the same pit presented as a German crime, as usual with no exact reference as to source, time or place. Alas, I cannot find them any longer.....

Then of course there is the question whether these are actually real photos at all. Funny that Nizkor doesn't address the issue of fake pictures anywhere on their site.

As for atheism and the Holocaust, there seems to be a connection. It goes like debates "Can there be a god, after the Holocaust?" - "Where was god in Auschwitz?"

It's always interesting to see 'piles of shot Jews' with no blood.

May of these photos have already been debunked at this forum, ex.:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4652

For much more use our search function: fake photo*

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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