Survey: quickest path to Holocaust unbelief

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montague
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Survey: quickest path to Holocaust unbelief

Postby montague » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:34 am)

Just wanted people’s opinions here on the quickest way to convert believers to Holocaust Revisionism.

I’ve had the most success with people who actually don’t know much about the details of the “Holocaust”. They have the idea - from the media and watching films like Schindler’s List - that an extermination of the Jews occurred, but they don’t know how. When I tell them that the Jews were killed in giant gas chambers, and then all six million bodies vanished without a trace in giant crematoria, they can’t believe it. ‘Gas chambers? I never knew that’. To them, it sounds stupid: ‘Why not just shoot the Jews instead? Or starve them?’

As I said, not very educated in Holocaust Exterminationism: but therein lies the key. The more educated or well-read, the harder to convert.

My own belief in Exterminationism wavered after I read that no Hitler order existed for the extermination of the Jews.Then I read Graf’s book, ‘Holocaust or Hoax?’ after which it was all over.

But usually people don’t have the time to read books like Graf’s. What you have to do is to get the message across in the space of a minute’s conversation. I read that one Ukrainian associate of Zundel’s became a non-believer after a 20 minute conversation with Zundel. That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about.

Rupert.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:20 am)

The simplest way is to point on concrete things. If you are home at somebody, they mostly have a living room. In my country (Sweden) the average size is about 25 m2 (75 sq. feet). Tell them to fit in 700-800 persons in this area. It doesn't matter how well educated they are, they see the point!

Source: Kurt Gerstien's confessions. Search this site for 'Gerstein'.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:33 pm)

I always think it's best to keep it simple, If you start waffling on about documents and such, they get confused.

I like to point out that most of the so-called victims were not cremated in ovens, but buried. dug up again, then burnt on open-air fires. I then ask them how such a collosal undertaking could have taken place in broad daylight, and not a single piece of evidence exists to support such nonsense. If you mention the Germans had no fuel either, that really knocks the wind out their sails.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:11 pm)

Try telling them that 900,000 Jews were supposedly buried in a massive pit at Treblinka, but evidence of such a pit does not exist.

Show them the tampered-with WWII aerial photos. Then show them the ground photo of the alleged 'gas chamber' which does not show the alleged Zyklon-B ports for dumping in the cyanide substance.

Show them the tampered-with WWII aerial photos. Then ask them where are the alleged massive open air cremation pits? Ask them where are the massive outdoor piles of stacked corpses awaiting cremation as alleged?

Ask them to show you the massive alleged buried ash pits which would support the allegations.

Ask them why there are no physical remains at any of the alleged mass shooting/burial sites.

Tell them about the ever changing nature of the fraud.

Put the responsibility upon them to support their conditioned response...take the points one by one, and ask for specifics. That floors them every time.

Ask them to register here and ask questions and/or debate us.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:55 pm)

Hannover,

I don't agree with you. Your arguments will maybe work on the enforcers, but not on the average couch potatoes. Your arguments are good in a 'second stage'.

He/she has learned about the Holocaust in school, Hollywood movies and Anne Frank's diary. They 100 % certain that the Holocaust is proven by irrefutable evidence! And hey, I got a good life, so why should I bother with that shit?

To most of us that posts here, we understand the claims of for example Treblinka are ridiculous, but the couch potatoes don't.

You must use arguments that they can grasp to rouse their interest.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:13 pm)

Malle wrote:The simplest way is to point on concrete things. If you are home at somebody, they mostly have a living room. In my country (Sweden) the average size is about 25 m2 (75 sq. feet). Tell them to fit in 700-800 persons in this area. It doesn't matter how well educated they are, they see the point!

Source: Kurt Gerstien's confessions. Search this site for 'Gerstein'.


The problem is that Charles Provan has proven that about 700 people or even more can fit into 25m^2.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:08 pm)

Please produce Provan's 'proof'.

And certainly Provan, nor anyone else, has ever proved that anyone was gassed by the Germans

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:23 pm)

Unfortunately, Provan's article was not published in JHR (ask Ted O'Keefe or Mark Weber why this is so; perhaps they're against the Real Open Debate on Holocaust?). Here are some excerpts from his unpublished manuscript:

From the beginning, nobody who has stopped to think about Kurt Gerstein's statement about 700-800 Jews into a room of 25 m2 has believed him. Both Revisionists and Exterminationists have agreed that Gerstein's ratio is impossible. While the Revisionists have always pummeled this particular point to discredit the gassing part of Gerstein's 'confessions', the Exterminationists have hidden and changed the real figures, only commenting on them when forced by Revisionist criticism to acknowledge that Gerstein was seriously wrong. The explanations given for this mistaken ratio in reality further weaken Gerstein's value as a witness to the extermination of the Jews.

Here is where the matter lies at the present time, some forty-five years after Gerstein wrote his report: nobody believes that 700-800 Jews could have been packed into a 25 m2 gas chamber.

This would be the end of the matter, except for one thing.

Gerstein was right: seven hundred to eight hundred people can fit into a 25 square meter room.


One day in December of 1990, I was reading The 'Confessions' of Kurt Gerstein, by Henri Roques. (I had bought a copy as soon as it was

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released, and had read over it several times since then.) While I was reading one of the six manuscripts of Gerstein contained in the above book, a phrase of Gerstein caught my attention: "more than half are children" (present in Manuscripts T5 and T6)23 It did not occur to me at that time that Gerstein's ratio could be possible, but it piqued my curiosity enough for me to assemble my five children and tell them to take off their clothes (except for underwear). I then went into one of my children's bedrooms and pushed two pieces of furniture closer together. Because Gerstein mentioned babies at the breast, I gave one of my children a large baby doll to hold. I found (by carefully positioning them) that I could get all five kids and the baby doll to fit in a square measuring 16 inches by 16 inches. My two-year-old squatted on the floor (and several toes!), while all the others could stand, the baby doll being held in between and above. Fitting them was easy, and no one was "squashed". Once I figured that 16" X 16" seemed to be the smallest area possible, I said that I was done, pushed the furniture back, and went downstairs to do some figuring.

I calculated the square inches in a 5 meter by 5 meter room (approx. 39" X 39" X 5 X 5): 38,025 square inches. By dividing this by the area of my test space (16 X 16 = 256 square inches), I obtained the number 148.5, which I multiplied by six (the number of children in my experiment). According to my calculations, then, 891.21 children could have fit into Gerstein's gas chamber! I was shocked, having no idea beforehand of the mathematical outcome.

On December 29, I repeated the experiment, this time using a wooden frame a friend built, and this time I took pictures. In January, I carried my research further by renting three dummies from an area department store. Though my two year old refused to participate (she was scared of the dummies), I was able to get all three dummies, four of my children, and a large baby doll, into a space measuring 22 inches by 22 inches. From these statistics, I calculated that well over 600 people could fit into a 25 square meter room, at a ratio of 25.6 people per square meter! This experiment was hampered by the fact that I couldn't position the dummies so as to minimize space, the dummies being stiff with non-moving appendages.

For my last experiment (February 8, 1991), I was able to recruit three adults, and (as usual) my children. The adults were two males (27 years, 34 years), and one woman in her seventies; the men asked only that I block out their faces in the photographs and not list their names in my report. I had my woodworking friend construct a plywood box with a floor space of 21 inches by 21 inches, one glass side, one open side, and an open top. The inner dimensions of 21" X 21" were necessary to hit slightly above 700 people per 25 m2 room (28/m2), provided that I could get eight people into the box. All people in this experiment kept their clothes on and were measured (height, waist, shoulders) and weighed, except for the baby doll, whose weight was "estimated". Weights were converted to kilograms in order to compare the average to Gerstein's statement in Manuscript T6: "I make an estimate: average weight at the most 35 kg".

By carefully positioning the eight people, all eight were able to fit easily into the box. All were able to breathe just fine, and I continually

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asked how everyone was feeling. Two children sat down (Susanna, age 6, and Tabitha, age 2), one hunched over (Tobias, age 4), while all three adults and my eight-year-old son Nathanael stood. Adult male T.J. held the large baby doll. We took photographs from various angles (including the open top), and then took pictures as we removed various people. These photos were necessary because when all eight persons were in the box, the positions of some people were almost impossible to see. In fact, Susanna was so hard to see that we had to tell her to stick her hand out to show where she was. Evelyn Nagy (the adult female) was visible only by looking into the top of the box, while Tabitha was visible only from the right (glass) side.

One interesting thing we noticed was this: although the box was open on one whole side and on the top, in a few minutes both adult males were sweating noticeably. The children said that it was hot but not too bad, in agreement with Evelyn.

After the photographs were taken, I averaged out the weights of the eight subjects. Amazingly, the average was 33.25 kgs. (Gerstein estimated the average of the persons in the gas chamber at 35 kgs "at the most".)

All of the data we recorded are listed in the Appendix of this article.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:48 pm)

the basic, absurd allegation by Gerstein:

Men, women, children -- 700 to 800 in all, more than half of them children -- were forced naked into a 16-foot by 16-foot chamber in Belzec, eastern Poland. Camp guards fired up a diesel engine. A half-hour later, soaked in sweat and urine, columns of bodies stood dead.

That's seven hundred people in 256 square feet? Three people per square foot? **That's three human beings somehow crammed into the space of one square of linoleum tile.** Think about it.

Provan and Sergey may believe it, but......

See more on the absurd Gerstein here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=181

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Postby Hyman » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:54 pm)

[quote="SergeyRomanov"]....By carefully positioning the eight people, all eight were able to fit easily into the box. ....

Jews were told they were going to have a delousing shower, not performing something akin to how many clowns can fit in a volkswagen. Allowing for the validity of Provan's experiment, and its presumed proper mixture of children and adults, wouldn't the Germans be creating conditions for a riot if they advised prisoners (who were already worried about being gassed) they were going to have a delousing shower and then packed them sardine-like into a room? Gerstein made many wild statements and is a good eyewitness for the revisionists. Who is a good eyewitness for the orthodox side?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:02 pm)

It might be worth considering what it would be like trying to get 400 children into that space 'who did not want to be'. I mean, it's all very well getting your own (five) children to carefully and patiently position themselves, in the quiet surroundings of your own home. It would be a completely different scenario trying to achieve this with terrified children and parents, in the chaos and mayhem of a supposed gas-chamber.

Besides Karl wolff said they were 'thrown in' on top of the adults on 'The World At War' series. Hardly precision alignment !

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:04 pm)

Hyman,

FYI:

To quote something, click on the 'quote' button above, put it on top of the text you wish to quote, add your text, then click of the 'quote' button again, underneath your text ...the 2nd quote button will contain /)

Try it on any post, then click 'preview' to see your results, if it looks good then click 'submit'.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:22 pm)

Jews were told they were going to have a delousing shower, not performing something akin to how many clowns can fit in a volkswagen.


But neither did Provan and his friends and children performed "something akin to how many clowns can fit in a volkswagen". They were quite comfortable and "were able to breathe just fine" (I think they were more comfortable than the passengers of crowded Russian buses :lol: ). Take away their clothes, starve them a little, push them together harder - and you can fit one more person there.

Allowing for the validity of Provan's experiment, and its presumed proper mixture of children and adults, wouldn't the Germans be creating conditions for a riot if they advised prisoners (who were already worried about being gassed) they were going to have a delousing shower and then packed them sardine-like into a room?


When you're naked and hit by a whip you won't think of a riot. And those who already were in the chamber wouldn't be able to move (personal experience from Russian buses :twisted: ).

Besides Karl wolff said they were 'thrown in' on top of the adults on 'The World At War' series. Hardly precision alignment !


Karl Wolff has nothing to do with Gerstein's statement.

It would be a completely different scenario trying to achieve this with terrified children and parents, in the chaos and mayhem of a supposed gas-chamber.


Provan:

All of the seven people in my experiment were healthy and well nourished. The Jews of eastern Poland (and specifically, Lvov/Lemberg, which is where the Jews of Gerstein's account are said to have come from) were, in August of 1942, ill-fed and even starving.24

In addition to the above, according to ethnological studies done by Dr. Otto Von Verschuer, the Jews of Poland were about three inches shorter than the average German.25 This comparative smallness is confirmed by other authorities, notably John R. Baker and Lothrop Stoddard.26 Since Jews are smaller, this would probably reduce their cubic volume by approximately 5%, when compared to non-Jews of European descent, the ethnic background of all the people in my experiment.

While the people in my final experiment were clothed, the people described in Gerstein's account were stark naked. Another point to consider is this: all of the people in the 21" X 21" box were not compressed or pushed together, while the people described by Gerstein were whipped and physically pushed into the chamber. Though it is possible that hysteria could actually disrupt "smooth fitting" of people into a 25 square meter room, yet in my opinion, brute force would overcompensate for this.

Keeping in mind all of the above, as well as the fact that Gerstein's lower ratio of 28 people/m2 was reached in the final experiment conducted by myself and my friends, we may conclude that the number of persons, the dimensions of the chambers, and even the weight estimates of Kurt Gerstein are well within the realm of the possible, and are believable. Seven hundred and fifty starving Jews, over half of them children, could fit into a 5 meter by 5 meter room, 1.9 meters tall.

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P.S. I realize that even with photos and data, it is understandable that this experiment would be "hard to believe". I think that this is due to the fact that it is very difficult to visualize 28 people in a square meter. I cannot as yet "visualize" it myself. Nonetheless, the above conclusion is mathematically sound. Readers may be assured of my ability and willingness to repeat this experiment in the presence of others when called upon to do so. I made sure to save the box.


Let's face it, guys: you have been refuted.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:36 pm)

Karl Wolff has nothing to do with Gerstein's statement.


But it has everything to do with how children were supposed to have entered the chamber. Also from the very lips of the man who was stood there watching it, or even helping do it ! Was Gerstein or Provan there ?

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:40 pm)

Turpitz wrote:
Karl Wolff has nothing to do with Gerstein's statement.


But it has everything to do with how children were supposed to have entered the chamber. Also from the very lips of the man who was stood there watching it, or even helping do it ! Was Gerstein or Provan there ?


Did Wolff describe that particular execution? If not, you have no case.


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