Weber's use of Goebbels for partial holocaust

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Weber's use of Goebbels for partial holocaust

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:32 pm)

I read Mark Weber's essay.

Weber uses Goebbel's diary for his belief that killing happened in the East, that "millions lost their lives." What would people say about that here? Do we know the diary couldn't have been tampered with? Some thoughts that come to me, is where Hannover asks (in various threads here) where are the graves then. Or where Arthur Butz mentions that the deaths of so many people wouldn't hinge on a diary entry or a book entry, that instead there'd be a mountain of evidence.

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:39 am)

The Jews were still alive

The simplest reason for rejecting the Holocaust story in general is that the vast majority of European Jews were still alive at the end of World War 2. Professor ARTHUR BUTZ, the author of The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, made this claim nearly thirty years ago–and he was absolutely correct as the following quote from a credible, recent Jewish source shows.

The Jewish Week 11-28-2003
Two new studies to determine the location of Jewish Holocaust survivors, for use in making future allocations to the most needy, differ widely on the number of survivors worldwide, The Jewish Week has learned. Sergio DellaPergola, a demographer for the Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, found 1,092,000 survivors worldwide. Jacob Ukeles, a policy researcher in Manhattan, found 688,000. The Ukeles survey, an update of one he prepared in 2000 for the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, found only minor differences from his previous effort. Lawrence Eagleburger, chairman of the International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims, commissioned both surveys. Eagleburger had hoped to use the figures in determining how to distribute $13.2 million annually in humanitarian funds for needy survivors worldwide.

SERGIO DELLAPERGOLA's amazing discovery of 1,092,000 Jewish holocaust survivors alive in 2003 is thoroughly discussed in his 2003 report. Clearly, the numbers of “Jewish holocaust survivors” alive more than fifty-five years after the war are so enormous that one should wonder if any Jews at all perished during World War 2. Any conservative and reasonable statistical analysis of population decline over the post-war years would surely conclude that there were more than five million Jewish “holocaust survivors” alive at the end of the war. No doubt, some innocent Jews were killed–but, there is no good reason to believe Jewish deaths were statistically unusual for a long, horrific war in which many tens of millions of innocent civilians were killed of all nationalities. On the basis of numbers alone–the generally accepted story is a monumental hoax. The continued worldwide acceptance of that hoax, even in Germany, is a tribute to the enormous power and influence of the supposed victms and the Jewish community in general. The uniqueness of the mass gassing claims has also appealed to the darker sides of human imagination and gullibility.

The archives at Bad Arolsen are becoming available and contain more than 50 million pages of documents about people who were in German camps during the war. By some accounts, those archives provide extensive documentation of Nazi atrocities. But, a recent letter from Bad Arolsen shows othwerwise:
“unfortunately, we cannot reference a single document listing the death of a detainee due to gassing by Zyklon-B. As a rule, the Nazis gave other causes of death for inmates, who perished in the concentration camps.With kind regards,

U. Jost Archival Manager”

Almost needless to say, they could not provide any evidence of gassings with carbon monoxide, or diesel exhaust, or gasoline engine exhaust either–or else, they would have been more than delighted to provide it.

One profound shortcoming in the DellaPergola report is that its “intermediate extensive” approach (see page 13 of the report) includes only “Jewish persons who are alive today” (meaning 2003) which obviously excludes people who had been Jewish during WW2 but who had “converted” or assimilated during the war and abandoned their earlier attachments to judaism–and who are NOT Jewish today. The numbers of people who fit into this category can only be guessed at by this author–but it does seem reasonable to imagine that the numbers are quite substantial. To escape the real, or perceived, dangers to their survival, many jews would have certainly dropped their religious attachments just as Germans after WW2 abandoned their earlier attachments to national-socialism. One might even call this the Madeline Albright phenomenon. Ms. Albright supposedly only learned of her family's prewar Jewish-Czech identity after she herself had been raised as a Roman Catholic in the U.S. and had risen to become Secretary of State. Although her parents had come to a supposedly religion tolerant society, they did not resume their jewish identity and raised their daughter as a Christian instead. Any other living Jewish relatives of Ms. Albright apparently remained silent or out of contact as well.

A similar shortcoming of the DellaPergola report is that it does not include people who had been Jewish during WW2 but who abandoned any Jewish identity in the fifty-eight years since the end of the war, for whatever reasons, which might simply be intermarriage—or, outright rejection of religion in general as one would expect in communist eastern Europe. To ignore the postwar pressures to conform to an atheistic world view would be like taking the difference in censuses of Christians in eastern Europe, before and after communism—and then concluding that the difference represented the number of “Christians exterminated under communism.” Accusations of rabid anti-Semitism under postwar communism have been rather frequent and, therefore, one should expect the pressures to conform to have significantly reduced the Jewish population in the postwar period as well.

In view of real, or perceived, dangers to their survival, why would any sane Jewish person want to remain Jewish? Are Jews more fanatical about their religious beliefs than other people? What this all means is that the true numbers of Jewish “holocaust survivors” alive at the end of the war must be significantly greater than the millions implied by the DellaPergola report directly. The true numbers of “surviving persons of wartime Jewish identity” are, in any event, enormous and are the clearest and most dramatic refutation of the hoax. The numbers of additional “wartime Jews” who abandoned their jewish identity after the war make the case against the hoax even more dramatic.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:43 am)

He is an idiot. He has starting to do what the Holocaust enforcers had done for decades. Nitpicking small details to build a scenario where the evil Germans actually killed those nice people. But could this man challenge Bradley Smith? As you know what Bradley Smith says:

“Can you provide, with proof, the name of one person who was killed in a gas chamber at Auschwitz?”

Of course not! Why should we dwell on subject like Höfle telegrams, secrets rapport this and that? It’s ridicules! Well, I believe Mark Weber can’t do more that the other Holocaust enforcer’s can. So we are back at square one. Like Greg Gerdes say’s, they can’t find 20 teeth’s in the alleged area of Treblinka, so where is the proof of this so called Holocaust? As long as they can’t answer Bradley Smith, why should we address them with smalltalk ?

I believe like FP Berg that this man is out for the M-O-N-E-Y like our opponents. So DON’T support him. Remember, we are talking about the most documented crime in the history of mankind! :cheers: And where are the proofs?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:09 am)

There is good reason to believe that the Goebbel's diary is suspect and without a doubt has been wildly misinterpreted.

- The complete original diaries have supposedly 'never been found', right. Reminds me of the Himmler diaries which we never read about but are supposedly in Israeli hands. They're hiding something.

also see:
'The Goebbels diary: a forgery?'
'Grubach debunks Jeffrey Herf and the 'Final Solution' canard'

And the coup de grace for claims about the suspicious Goebbel's diary is the fact that no mass graves as alleged can be shown. If the shady interpretation that Weber and the Industry believe in for Goebbel's incomplete diary was correct then these mass graves could be shown.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:19 pm)

I deleted, but saved, your Patrick Desbois post. I can send it to you if you like. There are threads on him, please post to those.
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Postby Percy » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:36 am)

i take this occasion to thank those good guys who are still active in the revisionism, despite weber's unpleasant behavior:
fritz berg, prof. arthur butz, paul grubach, thomas kues, bradley smith and richard widmann (and naturally hannover, :D ).
thank you very much for your commitment!
regards. :D

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:59 pm)

Turpitz, Berg, & Ketcher, this thread is about Weber's take on Goebbels.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:19 pm)

Wilfred von Oven, Goebbels personal adjutant right to the end, tells us in his “Finale Furioso” that of every type-written page a micro-copy (Mikrokopien) was later made, able to fit into a small case instead of filling a library (p.67). On April 18.1945, Goebbels told secretary Otte (Geheimsekretär), the only one familiar with the content since he typed all, to destroy the rest of the typewritten pages (v. Oven witnessed this). Thus, only the three micro copies remained (three because Goebbels categorized his diary by three subjects), stored in three steel cases which were buried (p.647).

Sadly, von Oven died, just recently, before I was able to contact him, having just found this book.


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Postby friedrich braun » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:11 pm)

I thought David Irving had access to the diary in Moscow.

What is Mark Weber saying in his piece? Does he now believe in the standard Holocaust narrative (6 000 000 & gas chamber)?

Weber's thesis is wrong.

Writers who believe that we are in a forced choice between “(1) setting the record straight on Hitler; or (2) saving the West” have it completely ass-backwards. Without a massive and ongoing revision of the rather clumsy Holocaust narrative that emerged in the mid-seventies (but not, it will be noted, in the memoirs of those who orchestrated the war, like Churchill), there will be no movement to save the West. The ball and chain around every White person’s ankle is marked “Hitler”, and when the true story of those years is widely disseminated, things will begin to change, but not before. Any movement towards gentile group association is associated, in the Pavlovian way, with WWII imagery, and until that imagery is properly contextualized, there simply is no way forward.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:52 pm)

Your last post did not deal with Weber and Goebbels, which is the topic of this thread, hence it's gone.
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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:45 am)

Weber is falling into the "excessive moderation" trap, not in the sense of acknowledging truths that almost no revisionist denies (such as the barbaric character of many WW2 operational practices that gradually became current on both sides), but of morphing the tone of legitimate concession into a type of discourse that sounds to the ignorant ear like a confirmation of the general lines of the official "Holocaust," naturally with due care to never explicitly say so.

Nevertheless he is one of the most able historian revisionist investigators ever, so due homage should be paid to his competence, even though doubts may be expressed as to his current tactical presentation of the "Holocaust" matter (i.e. the + or - 6 million, intention, gas chambers). A hoax is a hoax is a hoax. Full stop. Niceties come after this basic datum that any rational mind should recognize as inescapable.

I have some difficulty avoiding repetition, so -- with apologies in case I'm repeating myself on this forum -- I would like to offer newcomers my own reading of the Goebbels diaries as powerful evidence against the alleged "Holocaust," by transcribing part of an intervention on the Richard Dawkins Forum:

From Comment #170250 on the Richard Dawkins Forum:


As often happens, you assume the quote without looking up the original German and the wider context. I don't speak German, but I have some lights into the language, I know how to use dictionaries, and I have often compared my own opinions with those of people who speak German as a first language. Here is the original German you're quoting in translation, from the entry in the Goebbels Diaries for March 27, 1942:

"Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt, bei Lublin beginnend, die Juden nach dem Osten abgeschoben. Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig. Im großen kann man davon feststellen, daß 60 Prozent davon liquidiert werden müssen, während nur 40 Prozent bei der Arbeit eingesetzt werden können. Der ehemalige Gauleiter von Wien, der diese Aktion durchführt, tut das mit ziemlicher Umsicht und auch mit einem Verfahren, das nicht allzu auffällig wirkt."

And here is a word-by-word translation that sounds awkward in places but facilitates the understanding of the original German meaning (my italics):

"Out of the General Government will now, beginning by Lublin, the Jews to the East be deported. It will be used a pretty barbaric and not proper to describe here process, and of the Jews properly it will not be left a great remnant. Generally speaking, one can foretell of the process that 60% are likely to become liquidated as a result of it, while just 40% we will be able to put to work. The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention."

Now compare. The worst mistranslation concerns the words "davon" and "müssen," because "davon liquidiert werden müssen" does not mean "we must kill them." It means "they are almost certain to get liquidated from... (what has gone before), i.e. to be dead and gone due to... (what has gone before)." If you were writing the same in English, in your own diary, the equivalent would be something like "60% of them are likely to be goners (from the deportation)."

Obviously if the "liquidiert" is "davon" (from it), it means it's the deportation -- clearly acknowledged as a "pretty barbaric one" -- that is expected to be the cause of the shrinking numbers of Jews, not any secret gas-chambering disguised as a false deportation to the East, as the "Holocaust" tale requires you to believe. So, once again, it is not "we will have to liquidate them", but "the deportation process is expected to make them goners". The "nur" ("just", "only", "not more than") in the last sentence even implies that Goebbels would have liked more surviving Jews. I guess the more usable forced labour for a longer time, the better.

Your "not much more remains of the Jews themselves," is also misleading. The correct translation is "it will not be left a great remnant of Jews," which, of course, means not many Jews will be left in Lublin or the General Government (not Europe or the whole World!), after Operation Reinhardt (the deportation). What Goebbels is describing is the phased deportation through and from the General Government to the labour camps in the East, such as the ghetto complex of Maly Trostynets we have only recently begun to hear about, and not to any gas chambers that are supposed to have been operating within the General Government itself, not outside of it.

He is also estimating round symbolic percentages (40/60) in his rambling thoughts, and not referring to any precise secret statistics. Certainly no "planned extermination percentages" have ever been claimed to have existed. He is simply saying in an informal fashion that he believes a majority of the deportees (the "60%") will not survive the rough conditions they will be exposed to in the East, but he actually acknowledges the rest will survive (the "40%"). Hardly a description of a secret extermination program if one was up!

Also note that the former Gauleiter of Vienna he is referring to is Odilo Globocnik, who was SS and Police Leader in the Lublin district of the General Government at the time. If you read the passage with this in mind, it's clear that what Goebbels is saying is the deportation process has begun with the Lublin district and the local man in charge there is managing to achieve it without too much civil disturbance or revolt, not that he hopes to exterminate an entire race through a vast net of locally improvised weirdly conspiratorial methods in the forlorn hope that no one would ever notice such a necessarily visible event, as "Holocaust" peddlers would have it...

Obviously if a real extermination program was on, the result would be 0% and 100% , not 40% and 60%. The 40/60 rough indication is his own manner of speaking of what he feels to be a barbaric but necessary process, not an unheard-of historical extermination to be attempted. He might be talking about the effects of incendiary bombings on enemy civilian targets, or indeed about wholesale barbaric deportations into Siberia or Kazakhstan if he were an Allied leader and had some human feelings concerning what was going on. Nothing new here. No special unheard-of gas chamber "Holocaust" devised to secretly remove an entire race from the face of the World.

Altogether a glaring confirmation that the Germans were concerned with winning the War and getting the Jews out of Germany, not with turning them into soap bars or vaporising them in burning pits. Deporting entire families out of their homes into adverse life conditions in labour camps during a savage war is indeed a barbaric procedure. I wonder what Churchill, Roosevelt or Truman wrote in their personal diaries when they ordered entire cities scratched from the map. Maybe even Stalin had some misgivings every now and then, but I don't think he wrote any personal diaries...

So this is how Goebbels's perfectly unequivocal talk of a deportation program is twisted into a vague mention of an outlandish extermination that is assumed to be there in "coded" form, even though this is Goebbels talking to himself in his own private diary... without a single mention of any gas chamber mass-murdering program!

Here are some more quotes from Goebbels's diaries around the time of your citation (February to December 1942), in order to see what's going through his mind when he mentions the violent suppression of the Jews.

1942, Feb 5: "The Jewish question is again giving us a headache; this time, however, not because we have gone too far, but because we are not going far enough. Among large sections of the German people the idea is gaining headway that the Jewish question cannot be regarded as solved until all Jews have left the Reich."

Why does he say "until all Jews have left the Reich," instead of "until all Jews have been killed"? Is he hiding dark secrets from himself in his own unedited personal diary?

1942, Feb 14: "The sufferings of the Russian people under Bolshevism are indescribable. This Jewish terrorism must be radically eliminated from all of Europe. That is our historic task. World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness."

He is now speaking in the most violent language about "this Jewish terrorism of Bolshevism." He is supposed to be utterly contemptuous of every Slavic Untermensch, and yet he speaks about "the sufferings of the Russian people." He equates "Jews" with "Communists" and speaks of the defeat and destruction of both in the sense of an European "clean-up," not of a piecemeal extermination, individual by individual. And, of course, even though he mentions "cold ruthlessness," still no gas chambers in sight...

1942, Mar 6: "The Partisan danger is increasing week by week. The Partisans are in command of large areas in occupied Russian and are conducting a regime of terror there. The national movements, too, have become more insolent than was at first imagined. That applies as well to the Baltic States as to the Ukraine. Everywhere the Jews are busy inciting and stirring up trouble. It is therefore desirable that many of them must pay with their lives for this. Anyway, I am of the opinion that the greater the number of Jews liquidated, the more consolidated will the situation in Europe be after this war."

Unmistakably speaking about insurgency, subversion and the Partisan War, not of a program to exterminate innocent people in any gas chamber slaughterhouses. Indeed he is even speaking of a limited war against the Jews ("the greater the number" not "all," as would be appropriate to any hoped for racial extermination), with no sign of any "Holocaust," just the mention of a tremendous guerrilla / subversive war in the eastern occupied territories, wishing maximum casualties were inflicted to those he sees as insidious enemies.

1942, Mar 16: "I read a report of the SD about the situation in the occupied East. The activity of Partisans has increased noticeably during recent weeks. They are conducting a well-organised guerrilla war. It is very difficult to get at them because they are using such terrorist methods in the area occupied by us that the population is afraid of collaborating with us loyally any longer. The spearheads of this whole Partisan activity are the political commissars and especially the Jews. It has therefore proven necessary once again to shoot more Jews. There won't be any peace in these areas as long as any Jews are active there. Sentimentality is out of place here. Either we must renounce the lives of our own soldiers, or we must uncompromisingly prevent further propaganda by criminal and chaotic elements in the hinterland."

Again he is speaking of the war in the hinterland behind the front lines and the Jewish role in the Partisan War, and not of any program to process the lot of the European Jews in the alleged gas chambers within the General Government or the Reich itself.

1942, Mar 27: "It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this. The ghettos that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organising and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right."

He is now elaborating on what he said immediately before (your citation from this date's entry), namely that the "barbaric" deportation process starting with Lublin consisted of sending the Jews eastwards to the labour ghettos and camps, not westwards (Lublin is located in the Eastern part of the General Government, while Auschwitz is to the West).

The emptied ghettos, he now says, will be progressively repopulated by Jews from the Reich, and these will subsequently be sent eastwards too. This is as clear a description of the deportation process as one might wish for. You can only slip the gas chambers in if you assume he is using "East" for "West" and speaking in coded words to himself in his own personal diary...

1942, Apr 29: "The danger of the Partisans continues to exist in unmitigated intensity in the occupied areas. The Partisans have, after all, caused us very great difficulties during the winter, and these difficulties have by no means ceased with the beginning of spring. Short shrift is made of the Jews in all eastern occupied areas. Tens of thousands of them are liquidated."

Again clearly speaking with virulence about the results of the Partisan War in the East against what he sees as the irregular forces of the communists and Jews, not about any gas chambers in Poland.

1942, May 15: "As far as I am concerned, it would be best if we either evacuated or liquidated all eastern Jews still remaining in Paris."

Note this carefully: "all eastern Jews still remaining in Paris." During the war the French-born Jews were generally left alone. Out of 350,000 (minimum) Jews living in France -- many of them eastern immigrants -- 75,721 (according to Arno Klarsfeld himself) were deported, i.e. 22% of the total number, overwhelmingly of non-French eastern origin -- including those deported for violent or terrorist activities ("resistance") -- while 78% were not disturbed. This seems to go well with the deportation of perceived enemies, and not at all with any real "extermination" plans for the entire Jewish race. See an interesting article (in French)"Vous avez dit 'Extermination'?" by Pierre Guillaume here:

And finally here is an amazing entry if one assumes a real "Holocaust" is going on in Poland:

1942, Dec 15: "Generally speaking, the Jewish propaganda has become extraordinarily active of late. The Jews in London proclaimed a day of mourning for the atrocities allegedly committed on Jews in Poland by us."

Get it? Allegedly!

He has described a process of deportation to the East because this process is real. He has also described the difficult Partisan War (in words today's Americans will easily recognise after all the "body counts" their Armed Forces indulged in in Vietnam and elsewhere) because that too was real.

When it comes to atrocities in Poland, however, he uses the doubtful conditional form "allegedly." Does this sound like he is thinking of the extermination that he is supposed to have been refering to all the time in his allegedly coded wordings concerning in reality a deportation?

Where is, in Goebbels' writings, any mention to the genocide supposedly being carried out in the so-called "extermination camps" within the General Government?

Note that he sounds furious and is certainly not mincing his words. As I said, one wonders whether the Allied leaders ever described in their own unedited personal diaries their deportations of innocent people and their air warfare campaigns as "barbaric." They may have, since they weren't any more stupid than the Nazis, and they knew very well what they were doing.

Nobody really manages to hide the true prosaic mass murders that result from wartime national policies forever. What the clever mass murderers do is to attribute outlandish holocausts without end to the opposite side, thus putting public opinion behind themselves and making everybody their accomplices in the overall killing. The day you understand this will be the day you'll cease to believe in the silly gas chambers tale. You'll also understand why feeding us the "Holocaust" hoax and prohibiting any investigation into it is of such paramount importance to the powers that be, and especially to Israel, the only country that dared to demand universal censorship at the United Nations General Assembly.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:00 am)

friedrich braun wrote:Revisionism is a magic bullet aimed at the heart of Jewish power and Zionism. Zionists know that.

I often disagree with Friedrich Braun's political views. However, I fully agree with the above statement. For myself I would only emphasize the historical role of Jewish religion and its Abrahamic offspring, culminating in the present "Holocaust" syncretic cult, as the curse first of the West, then, in the present global stage, of the entire World.

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