Fredrick Töben's challenge to German prosecutor Grossmann

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Kiwichap
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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:36 am)

Maybe it's good for his ego, says illusion.

C'mon illusion, are we gonna have to go through all this nonsense again? You have kept your head down this last year, and I don't blame you. If I had been stuck like you have been stuck, I'd have been bleeding all over the place too.

Listen up.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What part of 'due time' don't you understand illusion? Oh, that's right, you haven't got anything to give, you told us so yourself. You ran away from the tough stuff, because you have no faith.

What would you know about sacrifice illusion? That's why every word outta your mouth is about you and your cowardly fearful selfish way of life. It's all about you, and what You would do to save you.

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Yeah, we are talking about the TRUTH here. My Master is the TRUTH. He that loses his life for the TRUTHS sake shall find it.

Toben has far greater matters to consider than scaredy cat worldly nail biting wimps. He is actually thinking about folk other than himself. Clearly this concept escapes you illusion. Ya gotta be a MAN to understand these things. Not an illusionary figment of your own fearful imagination.

Soldiers are required. If you are not up to it illusion, I suggest you sit quietly by the wayside and watch the soldiers going into battle. Hey, who knows, perhaps their bravery and courage will rub off on you. But I don't recommend you holding your breath.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:49 am)

Thesaint wrote:There`s nothing wrong with a bit of showmanship to get the point across.I faintly remember a certain Ernst Zundell turning up at a courthouse with an over-sized crucifix.I can`t imagine any of us calling him an "attention-seeking whore".


That may have happened before I became a revisionist. It's the first time I read about it, so I can't really comment on it.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:01 am)

Kiwichap wrote:What part of 'due time' don't you understand illusion? Oh, that's right, you haven't got anything to give, you told us so yourself. You ran away from the tough stuff, because you have no faith.

What would you know about sacrifice illusion? That's why every word outta your mouth is about you and your cowardly fearful selfish way of life. It's all about you, and what You would do to save you.


I'm not a coward. I just don't see the point of sacrifice just for the sake of sacrifice. If you're heading on a suicide mission, at least try to take down as much of the enemy as possible.

And yes, I cooled down for a while. I'm sorry I have a personal life. I'm sorry I wanted to focus on more important things in life than Internet forums. The only reason I came back is things being calm at work.

And it's not like I've been sitting still entirely while I was off the radar. Sometimes the most useful activites can be done off the radar.

Kiwichap wrote:Toben has far greater matters to consider than scaredy cat worldly nail biting wimps. He is actually thinking about folk other than himself. Clearly this concept escapes you illusion. Ya gotta be a MAN to understand these things. Not an illusionary figment of your own fearful imagination.


A real man doesn't go lie down underneath the guillotine and wait for it to fall down just to gain martyrship status. A real man dies in battle.

If there is a battle to fight that we have a remote chance of winning, you'll find me rounding up troops. I'm not the coward you think I am. I just don't like foolish and pointless suicide missions.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:04 am)

'Holocaust denier' convicted in Australia

6 hours ago

SYDNEY (AFP) — An alleged Holocaust denier wanted in Germany was found guilty of criminal contempt in Australia Thursday for defying court orders to stop publishing offensive material on the Internet.

Gerald Frederick Toben, 64, was convicted in the Federal Court on 24 counts of contempt of court after continuing to publish material about Jews and the Holocaust on his Adelaide Institute website, despite 2002 orders to stop.

Judge Bruce Lander said Toben, who will be sentenced later this month, had steadfastly refused to comply with the law.

He did not accept that freedom of speech "does not include the freedom to publish material calculated to offend, insult or humiliate or intimidate people because of their race, colour or national or ethnic origin", the judge said.

Toben told reporters he did not regret his actions, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported.

"If you believe in something and you want to have that freedom to express your opinions then you should be prepared for sacrifices," he said.

Toben was arrested in Britain in October last year under a European Union arrest warrant issued by Germany but a bid by German authorities to have him extradited to face charges of Holocaust denial failed.

He faces charges in Germany of publishing material on the Internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" which denies, approves of, or plays down the Holocaust.

Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany and offenders can face up to five years in jail.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... nlCKWZ-aZA

"material calculated to offend" notice there's no reference to truth here.

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:27 am)

Inquisitive wrote:"material calculated to offend" notice there's no reference to truth here.


Why would there be? At a time when Americans try to enter pseudo-scientific hogwash like "Intelligent Design" into their children's curriculi, truth no longer seems to be relevant anymore.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:02 am)

update:

Written apology over holocaust denial
A man who breached Federal Court orders to remove website material which denied the holocaust has issued a written apology.

Fredrick Toben, 65, was found guilty of 24 charges of contempt for breaching orders not to publish material vilifying Jewish people on his Adelaide Institute website.

At a hearing in Adelaide on the penalty he should receive, Toben said he would submit to censorship.

He provided a written apology through his lawyer.

The court heard Toben had previously said he would rather go to jail on principle than pay a fine.

But Toben told the court he unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.

Judge Bruce Lander said it was clear Toben did not have the money to pay a fine or the legal costs of the senior member of Australia's Jewish community, Jeremy Jones, who instigated the proceedings.

But Judge Lander expressed concern Toben could breach the orders again if he felt he had been provoked.

The judge said Toben did not seem to understand that the case was not scrutinising his beliefs or determining whether the holocaust happened.

The court will impose a sentence later.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 554971.htm

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:21 am)

Inquisitive wrote:The judge said Toben did not seem to understand that the case was not scrutinising his beliefs or determining whether the holocaust happened.


Indeed. They just don't want the truth to be heard because the Jews don't like it.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:21 pm)

IlluSionS667 wrote:
Inquisitive wrote:The judge said Toben did not seem to understand that the case was not scrutinising his beliefs or determining whether the holocaust happened.


Indeed. They just don't want the truth to be heard because the Jews don't like it.

That's right, this case has never been about proving or disproving the Holocaust, it was about the "hurt" Jeremy Jones "suffered" over Toben's action/remarks.

It was never going to be any other way, you can't "quantify" hurt feelings, Jones didn't have to "prove" that his feelings were "hurt" & there's simply no way to defend against such an accusation.

This law is the ultimate law in silencing dissent, no "Holocaust Denial Laws" are needed in AU.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:18 pm)

MrNobody wrote:This law is the ultimate law in silencing dissent, no "Holocaust Denial Laws" are needed in AU.


I wonder what marvelous pieces of literature Orwell would have given to the world if he had been born about six to seven decades later....
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:52 pm)

I'm sure he'd give it his thumbs up, Orwell was a Socialist & was a proponent of a Federal Socialist Europe, in 1947 he wrote an essay 'Toward European Unity.

I often wonder if "1984" was Orwell's attempt at an inside joke.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:54 am)

IlluSionS667 wrote:
Inquisitive wrote:"material calculated to offend" notice there's no reference to truth here.


Why would there be? At a time when Americans try to enter pseudo-scientific hogwash like "Intelligent Design" into their children's curriculi, truth no longer seems to be relevant anymore.


Regarding the issue the treatment of Intelligent Design or Creation Science by certain elements in the scientific community does remind me of the treatment Holocaust Revisionism gets from Holocaust Historians.

MrNobody wrote:That's right, this case has never been about proving or disproving the Holocaust, it was about the "hurt" Jeremy Jones "suffered" over Toben's action/remarks.
One can not point this out often enough. Some naive minds take the fact that Revisionists didn't win court cases as sign that it was proven during the trial that "the Holocaust happened". While in fact it wasn't really touched on the matter during the court case.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri May 01, 2009 11:41 pm)

Irving's diary, April 17, 2009 (Friday)

UP at 7:50 a.m. J. comments from Indianapolis on Fred Toben's tactics in Australia. He has been convicted of contempt under their laws for suppressing free speech. "Is he just dumb or something?" she asks. "Why continue to provoke them?"

I agree: "He brings down fire on our whole front line by these antics."

J. adds: "It is a slap in the face to everyone who supported him when he was arrested in the UK. He was lucky to get off then. He shouldn't press his luck.

A dispicable cowardly piece of crap discourse, the like such as I have never heard before.

Irving talks about his 'front line'. He actually expects to have a 'front line' that never experiences attack. What a weirdo coward. He's at the front line, and at the first sign of attack! he's running his cowardly mouth for cover. Irving wants a war without bullets, where nobody gets shot at. Where nobody gets hurt. We just blow kisses at each other. Ha ha ha, sounds like 'Dad's Army', with a cowardly twist. Ya just gotta laugh. With Irving at the front, watch your backs.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat May 02, 2009 4:09 am)

J wrote:Irving's diary, April 17, 2009 (Friday)

UP at 7:50 a.m. J. comments from Indianapolis on Fred Toben's tactics in Australia. He has been convicted of contempt under their laws for suppressing free speech..


Huh? How does posting Revisionist material on a website suppress free speech?

If you don't know what the fight is about, stay out of it. dumb ass
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat May 02, 2009 4:33 am)

Huh? How does posting Revisionist material on a website suppress free speech?

If you don't know what the fight is about, stay out of it. dumb ass


Irving isn't saying that. He is saying: Toben has been convicted using laws made by the government, to try and suppress free speech.

Posting revisionist material on a website does not suppress free speech, but those that wield vast power in the Australian Government think it does.

Basically, they are inventing any law they can to stop people telling the truth. This is not that odd considering most governments whole existence is based on lies. So, it's not that odd that they should not want anyone speaking the truth.

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Re: Fredrick Töben's challenge to German prosecutor Grossmann

Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:58 am)

You have to admire Toben. He certainly does try to make everyone stand up and listen even to having his bail revoked.

Holocaust denier's bail in dispute
Pia Akerman | July 17, 2009
LAWYERS will today seek an urgent revision of Fredrick Toben's bail conditions, after the Holocaust denier revealed plans to gatecrash an exhibition on people who risked their lives to save others during the Holocaust.

Mr Toben yesterday announced he would take advantage of a relaxation of his bail conditions to attend the opening of the Courage to Care exhibition in Horsham, Victoria, on July 20.

Mr Toben, who is appealing against his three-month jail sentence for contempt of court, asked the court to vary his bail agreement "on compassionate grounds" earlier this month.

Federal Court judge Anthony Besanko granted him freedom of travel within Australia for this month. Mr Toben had previously been allowed to travel from South Australia only to visit his lawyer in Melbourne.

Steven Lewis, representing Jeremy Jones, the former president of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry who brought the case against Mr Toben, said his legal team would today ask the court to revert to Mr Toben's original bail conditions.

Mr Toben told The Australian he had been taking full advantage of his relaxed bail conditions, travelling to Sydney and Brisbane as well as Melbourne to see supporters in ill health.

"It's my duty -- these are supporters who have been with us for many, many years," hesaid.

Mr Toben said he had decided to attend the Courage to Care exhibition -- aimed at high school students -- because he would be "in the area".

"I will not be saying anything because my barrister is overseas," he said. "I haven't got my advice on what to say."

Tony Weldon, chairman of Courage to Care in Victoria, said the event had been publicised but Mr Toben had not been invited. "I'm sure his name isn't on our VIP list," Dr Weldon said. "If he wants to attend and listen to a few talks ... that's up to him.

"I would just be worried that any of our people who are survivors could be distressed by his presence."

One of the survivors who works with Courage to Care, Harry Better, 74, spent part of the war living in Polish ghettos. *At the age of seven, he was put on a train to Auschwitz, escaping only because a Gestapo officer took him off the train at the request of a family friend.* A Catholic family took him in, and he lived with them for the rest of the war.

Mr Better questioned Mr Toben's motives.

"I don't believe that he wants a dialogue," Mr Better said. "If he wants credibility because he speaks to me, that's not something which he is going to get."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 04,00.html


*Was it THAT easy to get off a train bound for Auschwitz? Just a request from a friend?
I would love to see a survivor answer a few questions from Toben :D


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