Fredrick Töben's challenge to German prosecutor Grossmann

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Inquisitive
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Fredrick Töben's challenge to German prosecutor Grossmann

Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:43 pm)

Here's a new video from Toben. He is calling out German prosecutor Andreas Grossmann for debate on German soil. date to be determined.

Fredrick Töben's media release 12 January 2009
please listen here:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IVdBsIaRZEE

description:
1. Fredrick Töben at Australian Parliament House, Canberra, ACT,advises of his intentions soon to enter Germany and confront public prosecutor Andreas Grossmann.

2. After Töben was not extradited to Germany but was released from his 50 days in prison 1 October - 19 November 2008 for refusing to believe in the Holocaust-Shoah, Mr Grossmann vowed 'to hunt him down'anywhere in the world.

3. Grossmann wishes to criminalise thinking and the expressing of opinions on historical matters. He fears Revisionists because they strive to tell the truth about historical matters, especially those contentious matters pertaining to the period of history called the Holocaust-Shoah.

4. For Grossmann truth does not matter and an antiquated 'Offenkundigkeit' law, Section 130 of the German Penal Code, clashes with Section 5 of the German constitution that guarantees a free expression of a world view - Weltanschauung.

5. British Common Law does not as yet criminalise an individual's revisionist activity because expressing one's opinion is just that - always subject to a revision when new information comes along.

6. This exemplifies the importance of having a free flow of information otherwise it is not possible mentally to function efficiently.


(This should be interesting. Let's wish him well and may he receive all the PUBLICITY he can get!)

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Postby Greg Gerdes » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:49 pm)

This is great! It reminds me of an old saying. Applying it to this situation:

While Mark Weber is flailing away at the branches of Zionism, Fredrick Töben is hacking at its roots.

This is what we need more of - Aggression and creativity.

Good luck Mr. Töben - If you're reading this, please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

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Postby NeilfromBris » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:40 am)

I do wish Dr Toben all the best in this endeavor however I think that the outcome is inevitable. I don't like to sound negative but I cant see what he hopes to accomplish by this act of self sacrifice. As we are all aware,the German court operates on the basis of "established fact" so I very much doubt that he would be allowed to introduce into evidence any research or any material of a revisionist nature.

I saw in the original post to this thread that Dr Toben argues that section 130 of the German penal code conflicts with section 5 of the German constitution. At first glance this appears to be correct however if 1 reads further in section 5 you can see that the constitution is not violated because Section 5 para 2 States " These rights are limited by the provisions of the general laws".Therefore by enacting section 130 and section 189 of the criminal code the German government has legally suppressed true freedom of expression and dissemination of opinion.

The next hurdle he will have to overcome is possibly even more important than the 1 above.Let us suppose that somehow Dr. Toben is allowed to enter into evidence revisionist material and is able to successfully counter all the arguments of the state.Let us also assume that the judge in the case is convinced that Dr Toben has proved that the holocaust did not occur and he allows that to be entered into the court record. At this point we would imagine that Dr Toben is out of the woods and will be vindicated. This is not the case .Section 192 of the penal code which states "Proof of truth of the asserted or disseminated fact shall not exclude punishment". So you will have the truly remarkable situation where the court says "you are right but you still go to prison".

I do not believe that fighting against these repressive German laws in German courts will ever succeed. Not until at the very least there are some changes in the constitution and anti expression laws are repealed.Further,the will to make these changes is most likely not going to come from within Germany because of the power wielded by certain lobby groups. I think that it can be done but only through the European Court of Human Rights. If a case were won there then the German Govt would have no choice but to change their laws as they are bound by article 46 of the European Convention
If you start a sentence with "I believe" you can never be wrong

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Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:38 am)

article in the Australian yesterday:

"I am progressing to that next stage in our battle for truth, in our battle for civilization, in our battle to liberate the people who are oppressed. "We shall see whether truth will prevail ... whether we can in fact get some justice or whether you are simply going to demolish me, criminalise my thoughts and therefore further kill the German soul."

Dr Toben, 64, declined to say when he would go to Germany when contacted by The Weekend Australian yesterday.

But he said he had already been in email contact with Mr Grossman to arrange the court proceedings.

"I don't like being threatened by people who say they are going to hunt me down," he said. "Let's be civilised in these things, and discuss it and thrash it out."


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 04,00.html

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:00 pm)

NeilfromBris: "I don't like to sound negative but I cant see what he hopes to accomplish by this act of self sacrifice".

I put it to you NeilfromBris, that Dr Tobens willingness to sacrifice his liberty and possibly more, will do more for the truth of revisionism, than any other single act these last 60 years. Even if we did not have the iron clad Rudolf Report and the many other evidences, Tobens heroism will light up the sky like none other. Eveyone loves a real hero, and ya can't get better accolades than from walking into the lions den while they're having supper.

I bet those German prosecutors are running around wringing their hands and wondering how they are going to get out of this one. They are only good at inquisitions. Lies must needs be kept secret. They kidnap and illegally do their nasty work in the dark.

Yeah, they probably won't let Toben into Germany. Now that would be ironical, would'nt it?

Three Cheers for Dr Toben.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby NeilfromBris » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:56 pm)

To address what the Kiwi man wrote:
I see no problem at all with self sacrifice,provided the gain is greater than the cost. In the case of Dr Toben going to Germany the cost will be huge and the gain nil. I say that because no matter what this Grossman guy says in the emails that he and Dr Toben have apparently exchanged,there is absolutely no way that Dr Toben will get a chance to debate the issue in court.Dr Toben will be arrested on arrival,held without bail,put on trial and sentenced to 5 years in prison.

The court will rule that any evidence against the truth of the holocaust is irrelevent and therefore inadmissable. Please remember that the charge is saying that the holocaust is a lie.Even if main stream history were to do a total about face on the subject,it would still be a crime. Remember what I posted about section 192 of German law,Proof of truth shall not exclude punishment.

So to look at the loss/gain of Dr Toben going to Germany.The loss will be that a leading voice in revisionism will be silenced for some years.There will be no gain because outside of active revisionists almost no one will even know that he is in prison.

In my humble opinion, he would be better off to file a case with the European Court of Human rights.His case should not be that his right to free speech etc has been violated. That has been tried and failed. His case should be that German law prohibits him from holding an opinion and from expressing that opinion. As I posted on another thread, that case has been tried and won in that very court and precedent carries great weight in any court.
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Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:24 pm)

This publicity coming on the news of another Holocaust debate by Toben in Tehran is good news.

TEHRAN (AFP) — Iran's government spokesman on Tuesday branded the Holocaust a "big lie" created to place the Islamic republic's arch-foe Israel in the Middle East, the state IRNA news agency reported.

"The Holocaust is a concept coming from a big lie in order to settle a rootless regime in the heart of the Islamic world," Gholam Hossein Elham told a conference on Gaza in central Iran's religious city of Qom.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... e3pklQkBjw

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Postby astro3 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:09 am)

I doubt if Töben wants advice, but ….

I’d say, follow the example of Jesus Christ and use guile in avoiding the entrapment-questions. Spokesmen from the Sabhedrin plied Him with tricky questions (the Bible tells us) in Jerusalem, in order that they could arrest Him. Their questions focused on the divinity of Caesar under Roman law, in which they knew JC did not believe. He replied ‘Render unto Caesar…’ We are told they 'marvelled' at JC's skill in carefully replying to these entrapment-questions.

So, permit me to suggest, Toben needs to avoid the negative statements whereby he could be labelled as a ‘denier.’ ‘Are you denying the H.’? he will be asked again and again, by persons who know there is a ‘go straight to jail’ label on the wrong answer. A correct answer here would begin, ‘I’m not denying anything, I’m merely affirming that… ‘

Here are some golden affirmations, that might help him!
I affirm that the German gas-chambers had clothing put into them, not Jews; and that they were used to kill bugs, not people. They were operated with people outside them, not inside them. I affirm that the insecticide Zyklon was used in WW2 as … an insecticide, and that is is quite unlikely it was 'diverted' for other use.

Toben might wish to bear in mind that the Leuchter report is legal in Germany – it does not contain the ‘word ‘holocaust.’ It seems to me that factual affirmations can here be OK, eg that all the Zyklon supplied to the German labour-camps can be adequately accounted for by its use as an insecticide. That need not involve saying ‘No Zyklon was used for…’.

A matter-of-fact approach cannot readily be criminalised. Eg, to say that the gas chambers came online in late 1942 and early 1943 following the outbreak of typhus in 1942, installed in the German labour-camps. Manufactured by the German company DEGESCH, they were designed to be used with the Zyklon granules manufactured by IG Farben. Both the American army and the German used Zyklon during WW2, as the best way of combating typhus.

Toben should not question the 6 million figure. That is a major religious-icon and he will go straight to jail if he does. Any opportunity for debate he may be hoping for will NOT arise if he does this! I would however recommend, if he does want to say something about the numbers who died, a statement such as ‘According to the Catholic Bishop Richard Williamson , ‘two to three hundred thousand’ Jews perished in the German labour-camps.’ www.tellingfilms.co.uk/gledhill.htm That is a good quote because it actually comes from the Bad-Arelson archive. Its their total. That does not as such contradict the 6 million total WW2 deaths.

Suppose eg Toben wanted to say, ‘There is no documentary evidence in any 3rd Reich literature for any organised plan for genocide of an ethnic group’ – which would get him labelled as a ‘denier’ and sent to jail - instead, he could turn it into a question, ‘Is there any evidence…?’ and then add the affirmation, that the Endlosung der judenfrage ie ‘final solution’ meant the export of Jews eastwards out of Germany in all 3rd Reich literature so far examined.

Thus, it seems to me that a careful vocabulary of affirmation might in theory help him to avoid breaking German law.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:13 am)

I would'nt presume to tell Dr Toben what to do. But this is what I'd do. Heh heh.

I'd stroll into that truthless German Court with a hop, skip, and a jump, and a big smile on my face.

First off, I would make sure I'm swearing to tell the truth on a big fat Lutheren Bible. I'd make sure it's not a pack of M&M's or the latest copy of the Jerusalem Post, or the Talmud. I would INSIST upon a BIBLE. If they can't produce one, and being Germany, that is most likely the case. I would probably be stood down till they can get one. It will probably take them a couple of years to get one.I'll mention Bishop Williamson & the Pope.

I would make liberal use of the name of my Master. Jesus of Nazareth. Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. That will stop them in their tracks.

The world will not like to see a man languising in prison because the lying bastards can't get it all together!

But you may as well have some fun while you're in Germany Dr Toben. The world could do with a laugh about now. Ask them a couple of questions for me, will ya?

Why did Eli & his dad, who had just had a knee operation, go on the long march back to Germany with the Germans, and not stay to be liberated by the Russians?' Was it because the Russians were gassing Jews with sulphur dioxide sewer gas, and zyklonB leaves a nicer, rosier, complexion?

How did they manage to keep the gas in, when there was only a flimsy wooden door with a glass pane in it? Ha ha ha.

Yeah, no pressure Dr Toben, but if you get the opportunity...
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:10 am)

ah jeez astro3 If I ever find myself on the wrong side of the law, you wanna be my Lawyer?
:D
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Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:04 am)

Töben will probably be arrested as soon as he tries to leave any German airport. If he wants a serious debate, he better organises it in a country where Holocaust Revisionism is legal. Otherwise, he seems little more than an attention whore dedicate to gain martyrship status.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby PRHL » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:06 pm)

Dr. Töben recently telephoned me from Australia; we talked about my fax that I sent to the British court while he was arrested there:
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/newsletters/n436.htm

At the end of the call, however, I asked him again *NOT* to go to Germany. I think in his special case (an Australian who is also persecuted in Australia), it won't have any good effects for the just cause if he would be silenced in a German jail.

I think it is far more than enough what we Germans suffer in our land.

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Postby friedrich braun » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:18 pm)

Yes, but Toben really, really likes being a martyr. :roll:
"The dead came back from Jerusalem, where they did not find what they were seeking."

"The Seven Sermons to the Dead"

C.G. Jung

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Postby IlluSionS667 » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:28 pm)

friedrich braun wrote:Yes, but Toben really, really likes being a martyr. :roll:


Maybe it's good for his ego, but not for honest historical research.
All things are subject to interpretation. Whatever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not of truth - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:31 am)

There`s nothing wrong with a bit of showmanship to get the point across.I faintly remember a certain Ernst Zundell turning up at a courthouse with an over-sized crucifix.I can`t imagine any of us calling him an "attention-seeking whore".


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