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Citizenfitz wrote:Thanks, Bradley - that was quite helpful. The so-called gas chamber at Hadamar doesn't have sealed windows or doors either.
You think this one is a fake as well (Not that this would take me by surprise).
(If it's a debate for elsewhere, please refer to the correct thread / I've been off for a while and have to keep up)
I have been reviewing some of the films posted on YouTube that were made right after the war, hoping to correct information, specifically that there were gas chambers in Germany. I came upon this video:
About 15 minutes, 31 seconds into the film, it reports that at Hadamar bodies were exhumed and autopsied. Of the dead, the film claims 15,000 died in gas chambers. The 15,000 were then cremated after autopsy. Any autopsies should be on record. Does anybody know if these records exist?
I found this video on Hadamar:
At 3 minutes into the film, it talks about 15,000 gassed victims, and claims there were autopsies, death books and death certificates. Major Herman Volker from the War Crimes International Tribunal examined and made record of the exhumed corpses. Where is this material, these autopsies?
Finally I checked with the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum:
which included this caption:
"The Hadamar psychiatric hospital was used as a euthanasia killing center from January until August 1941. Nazi doctors gassed about 10,000 German patients there. Although systematic gassings ended in September 1941, the killing of patients continued through the end of the war. In this footage, American soldiers supervise the exhumation of the cemetery at Hadamar and begin the interrogation of Dr. Adolf Wahlmann and Karl Wilig, who participated in the killings."
I wonder if anybody on this forum knows whether there is any of this material available - death books, death certificates, autopsies, reports from the War Crimes International Tribunal and Major Herman Volker. It was clearly being asserted in these films but my understanding was that there was no mass gassings in Germany, no autopsies attesting to lethal gassings. How are the stories from the films made circa 1945 repudiated?
The claim that there are 'autopsies' is a lie. If there were autopsies that proved gassing we'd be seeing those autopsies on a daily basis. Where are the claimed autopsies? Nowhere, they did not, do not exist. Simple as that.
Anyone can make any absurd accusations against Germans with impunity. The solution: demand proof, do not just accept what is claimed. Any schmuck can make absurd claims.
spirited debate here, another Revisionist victory for truth:
'T4 euthanasia gassing?'
ginger wrote:How are the stories from the films made circa 1945 repudiated?
Of course, the question should be, as ever, how are such claims supported? On what evidential basis are the claims made?
Also, one should excerise great care when interpreting all gruelpropaganda, especially when it emanates from the US Psy Warfare, Information Control.
The claim made in the videos, and this one at the USHMM, http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display ... le_num=162 (Hadamar starts at 2m 10s) was that there were 35,000 victims at Hadamar. 20,000 buried and 15,000 other victims murdered by unproven and as we shall see, unalleged, gas, allegedly cremated with their ashes interred.
Note the emphasis on the "systematic murder of 35,000 Poles, Russians and Germans", recapitulated using the "evidence" from the bean counter, Adolf Markl who "confirmed the liquidation of Poles and Russians", while this records clerk, wasn't also assisting with burials, allegedly ...
The important point here, is to realise there were problems justifying the jurisdiction for the prosecution of the War Crimes at these institutions. The upshot was that jurisdiction applied for the murder of allied nationals, hence the need to include Poles and Russians in the propaganda film. See Law Reports, US War Crimes Commission, Vol. 1, The Trial of Alfons Klein and Six Others, The Hadamar Trial, Weisbdaen, Oct 1945, Questions of Jurisdiction, p. 52.
Even Henry Friedlander's, extermist bible on T4, The Origins of Nazi Genocide, claims that Hadamar wasn't used for the purposes of murder of concentration camp inmates, (pp. 148 - 149),
Freidlander wrote:But Hadamar was never used for this purpose, and it's gassing facilities were dismantled in the summer of 1942. 
so quite how the x thousand Poles and Russians were allegedly murdered there is a mystery. The Hadamar Trial Law Report, alleges only 476 Polish and Russian euthanasia victims at Hadamar, who were transferred from other institutions. (Vol. 1, p. 47)
Friedlander also quotes ( p. 109), the NARA, RG338 archive, T-1021, Roll 18, Frame 98, "Hartheim Statistics" as the source for a total of 10,072 deaths in total at Hadamar.
Also, the Law Report for the Hadamar Trial, makes no mention of poison gas whatsoever.
It is also shown by the evidence that between January, 1941, and some time in the middle of 1944, as many as 10,000 Germans, alleged to be mentally ill, were admitted to Hadamar and there put to death. At first the bodies of these were cremated. Later they were killed by means of " medications and injections," and, apparently, buried in the institution cemetery. (Law Reports, The Hadamar Trial, Vol 1, p. 47)
2. THE CHARGE
The indictment was worded as follows:
Charge : Violation of International Law.
"Specification: In that Alfons Klein, Adolf Wahlmann, Heinrich Ruoff, Karl Willig, Adolf Merkle, Irmgard Huber and Philipp Blum, acting jointly and in pursuance of a common intent and acting for and on behalf of the then German Reich, did, from on or about 1 July, 1944, to on or about 1 April, 1945, at Hadamar, Germany, wilfully, deliberately and wrongfully, aid, abet, and participate in the killing of human beings of Polish and Russian nationality, their exact names and number being unknown but aggregating in excess of 400, and who were then and there confined by the then German Reich as an exercise of belligerent control."
The Hadamar Trial, Law Reports, Vol. 1, p.47
So, no posion gas in the indictment, and the offence window was from 1 July 1944 to 1 April 1945, when Freidlander's alleged "gas chambers had been dismantled since 1942". Therefore no Poles or Russians were gassed at Hadamar. Even If you believe the narrative, only Germans could possibly have been, and as far as I can make out, that wasn't even illegal. Which is why we have the Poles and Russians listed as victims to provide justification for the legal jurisdiction.
So quite how the US propaganda newsreels claimed 35,000 with 15,00 allegedly murdered using poison gas, is a mystery within a mystery. Still, the footage remains up at the USHMM, so it must be true I guess.
Unless of course it was just lies and propaganda ... but if you dare to think that, then you'd be in danger of denying the H™ ...
Quite how one goes about defaming the dead, who clearly did not die, is perhaps the philosophical question of our age ...
Hohenems wrote:There is nowhere in the world where involuntary euthanasia is legal.
False / strawman argument, Hohenems. Who said anything about "involuntary"? Only you, that's who.
Hohenems wrote:Is it your claim that all euthanasia in the Third Reich was voluntary?
Well yes. Of course some poor person lacking mental capacity for much of anything and those comatose, etc. probably didn't volunteer. There is no proof that the families of these suffering souls did not sign off on merciful euthanasia injections.
Hohenems wrote:OK, well that's different. There is currently no country that will take a person who's non compos mentis off life support, much less give them a lethal injection, without the say-so of of next of kin, and if next of kin doesn't exist, there is currently no country that will go ahead and take that person's life anyway.
At last, we agree. The Germans euthanized no one without their approval or the approval of their family. As I said.
My understanding of the those euthanized at Hadamar (some 10,000 Germans), many were given overdoses of morphine and later other medications. Possibly, if they died en mass in a gas chamber, they were the among the 15,000 cremated and thus there is no trace of them, and no trace of the gas chamber which was dismantled in 1942.
I suppose the best way to repudiate YouTube films is to point out there are no autopsies to prove people died in lethal gas chambers.
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