Father Patrick Desbois' "Holocaust by Bullets"

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ASMarques
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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:46 pm)

Even if the lack of forensic reports or personal articles is attributed to the amateurish unscientific methods of Desbois, we should note that reading both sides of a story always gives a better insight into it.

The large graves are located at Busk, practically on the outskirts of Lvov/Lviv/Lemberg (25 miles away):
http://ukrindustrial.com/img/regions/pi ... 272667.gif
[Lviv in the center, Busk (written "bYCbK") to the east]

Some place names just keep surfacing again and again. A couple of excerpts on this ex-Polish city:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p-6_Weber.html

Especially important in this process was the role of Bogdán Musial, a youthful Polish historian who works at the German Historical Institute in Warsaw. In an article published in the prestigious Munich historical quarterly, Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte, he established that some of the exhibit's most gruesome photographs -- allegedly depicting German army killings of Jews -- in reality showed victims of mass killings by the Soviet security police (NKVD).

Just after the German invasion of the USSR in June 1941, Soviet authorities summarily shot many thousands of political prisoners, hastily burying their bodies in shallow graves or dumping them down well shafts. As Musial put it: "Beria's order [by Stalin's secret police chief Lavrenti Beria] was clear: no 'mortal enemy of Communism' should be freed by the Germans. Tens of thousands were liquidated by shots to the back of the neck or by beatings with sledge hammers. In some cases, the murderers threw hand grenades among the hapless victims, who had been herded together into prison courtyards ... The perpetrators literally waded in blood ..." In the town of Lutsk [ASM note: also very near Lvov], for example, the Soviets killed about 2,000 people.

"... Before their flight from [the western Ukraine city of] Lviv [Lvov] in late June 1941," wrote Musial, "the Soviets murdered some 3,000 to 4,000 prison inmates, most of them in the Brygidki prison. The victims were Ukrainians, Poles and Jews, as well as Soviet and even captured German soldiers." After the Soviet withdrawal, Lviv residents went to the city's main prison to search for missing relatives. "In the prison cellars," relates Dr. Musial, "they saw layers upon layers of corpses ... In the prison courtyard they found two mass graves."

After Soviet forces fled from Lviv, the people of this ethnically mixed city took bloody revenge on the Jews (who generally had been ardent supporters of the Soviet regime). Many perished in this outburst of murderous rage. "There is, however, no indication that this pogrom was provoked by the Germans," Musial notes.

What happened in the western Ukrainian town of Zloczów (Galicia) was typical of many others in the region. Following the Red Army takeover in late 1939, Soviet authorities arrested hundreds of "enemies of the people" there and deported them to Siberia and Kazakhstan. Then, in late June 1941, in the face of advancing German forces, Soviet security forces hastily rounded up 700 more allegedly anti-Soviet Zloczów inhabitants, and killed them over a five-day period with shots to the back of the neck. After German forces drove out the Red Army on July 1, 1941, they cooperated in digging up the mass graves of the victims.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p237_Clive.html

The Bureau also documented Soviet crimes against non-Germans. Chapters deal with Lvov, where thousands of civilians were found murdered in the prisons of the NKVD; Katyn; and Vinnitsa, a Ukrainian town where mass graves dating from 1936 were discovered. De Zayas reiterates that "the War Crimes Bureau was not established to fabricate documents on Allied war crimes: its records are genuine; its investigations were carried out methodically, in a judicial manner".


Anyway, one thing is obvious to me: nothing of this has anything to do with the myth of the 6 million, the amazing jumping gas chambers (the German answer to the frijoles saltarines, only in bricks and concrete), or the alleged attempt of extermination, i.e. the alleged set of events known as the "Holocaust."

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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:37 pm)

ASMarques wrote:Anyway, one thing is obvious to me: nothing of this has anything to do with the myth of the 6 million, the amazing jumping gas chambers (the German answer to the frijoles saltarines, only in bricks and concrete), or the alleged attempt of extermination, i.e. the alleged set of events known as the "Holocaust."


Well, the alleged massacres in the East certainly do make up a significant amount of the 6 million figure, and are increasingly becoming one of the central focuses of the "Holocaust", more so than they already were. This shift is due to various factors, including the opening of Soviet archives, as well as the revisionist attacks on the "death camps", among others.

Revisionists do not need to challenge or disprove every Nazi killing of a Jew in order to show how bunk the official tale is.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:32 am)

ASMarques wrote:
Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:I suspect, just as some of the posters above suggest, that the skeletons predate WW2. If the remains were only about sixty years old, there would still be some remains of clothing or other personal articles to help determine what happened.


Very good point. Even if people are made to undress previously to being murdered, they'll still have datable items with them, such as rings, religious medals, ear rings, that sort of thing.


The fact is, this method of "Archeology" is so amateurish that it is akin to a child uncovering the grave of a once loved pet.

The photo is of such poor quality including size that nothing can be learned from it, I'm surprised it didn't make it in the book for Bare Skeletal remains are perfect for enforcing the Myth that Jews were forced to undress before being massacred by the Germans.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:56 pm)

Over my long life, there have been about a half dozen discoveries through my readings that encouraged and stimulated me far above all others. Father Patrick Desbois' total failure, in spite of all the hype to the contrary, to find any real evidence for the alleged Einsatzgruppen-type massacres is such a discovery.

Readers of my website may have noticed that my focus was on gas chambers and that I avoided the entire subject of alleged mass shootings. The slogan I have used, until now, is: "Nazi Gassings Never Happened!" As an engineer, it seemed best to focus on what was possible technically, or impossible, or absurd and why. On the other hand, mass shootings are certainly possible technically and, no doubt, have occurred. The insistence that the Germans were doing this in Russia was based on the so-called Einsatzgruppen reports and on post-war testimony of hapless defendants who were certainly subjected to enormous pressure and outright torture. But, at least, those claims were based on something and could not be dismissed on technical grounds. The "reports" were unsigned, mimeographed and widely circulated, supposedly -- but could have been easily falsified by any moderately competent intelligence service with nothing more sophisticated than matching German typewriters and mimeograph machines. I have seen some of those reports and they looked hoaky for all kinds or reasons which I will not give here. But the "reports" were still something and more than enough to convince the likes of Weber and others that "terrible things" must have occurred.

Although sixty years have elapsed, what was always missing were any forensic exhumations from alleged massacre sites that were even remotely comparable to what the Germans did at Katyn in April 1943.

Desbois' failure represents an enormous bleeding wound in holocaust mythology. How can the hoaxers and backsliders, Weber and Irving included, explain such a total failure? Can anyone seriously believe the Germans dug up the corpses later and burned them without leaving many tons of bone fragments and ash from those open air cremations? Was Desbois simply a lone crackpot working on a shoestring budget as so many revisionists are? No, not all! Desbois' effort represented the combined efforts of the leading holocaust research institutions in the world--and yet they have totally failed to identify even one bone or bullet that can be tied to any German mass shooting. The "holocaust" really is an extremely dirty jewish HOAX!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:33 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Can anyone seriously believe the Germans dug up the corpses later and burned them without leaving many tons of bone fragments and ash from those open air cremations?


If you read the "confessions" of Paul Blobel (allegedly commander of the so-called "Sonderkommando 1005" or "Aktion 1005" which had to erase all traces of the mass-shootings), he confirms the story of Babi Jar, which was a big propaganda coup of the Soviets and the Jews, but regarding the other massgraves (there must have been many containing thousands or even tenthousands of victims each, if the official story was true), he speaks about destroying mass graves with 20 or 30 victims near Reval in Estonia and Riga in Latvia and about a 55 meters (~ 60 yards) long mass grave at Kiev. A little bit small for Babi Jar! :roll:

http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/blobel/faksimile/blobel2-1.gif

For pages 2 and 3 of Blobels confessions replace the "-1.gif" by "2" and "3".

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:34 pm)

Well, if there were mass cremations of human remains--there still would be many bone fragments afterwards. Where are they? Desbois could not find any at all. No doubt there were some, perhaps many, open air cremations just as after the bombing of Dresden.

Even with cremations in modern crematory ovens, after two hours of cremation at relatively high temperatures--the large bones such as the hip bones and shoulder blades and parts of the skull still remain recognizable and have to be crushed for disposal. Open air cremations would leave far more. Any serious investigation would find such material on site today if the alleged crimes had actually occurred.

Confessions such as Blobel's after the war are what one should simply call: "paper evidence." They were easy enough to manufacture given the ruthessnes of the victors.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:00 am)

Wahrheit wrote:
ASMarques wrote:Anyway, one thing is obvious to me: nothing of this has anything to do with the myth of the 6 million, the amazing jumping gas chambers (the German answer to the frijoles saltarines, only in bricks and concrete), or the alleged attempt of extermination, i.e. the alleged set of events known as the "Holocaust."


Well, the alleged massacres in the East certainly do make up a significant amount of the 6 million figure, and are increasingly becoming one of the central focuses of the "Holocaust", more so than they already were.


Even taking into account the statistical difficulties of dealing with the numbers of Jews, it's likely that around one million, perhaps even two million, but no more than that, perished from all causes in Europe during WW2. And it's clear to me that some large mass executions and crimes of war did occur in the East, though nothing like what is usually imputed to the German side. Given the nature and scale of the war, it would have been a miracle if rather extensive crimes of war inherent to the way itself in which the war was conducted had not happened. As for the camps, Bishop Williamson is probably not far from the mark, as most revisionists will agree.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:49 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Confessions such as Blobel's after the war are what one should simply call: "paper evidence." They were easy enough to manufacture given the ruthessnes of the victors.


Yes, of course.

But the point I was trying to make was that even Blobel - apart from his confirmation of the Babi Jar hoax, which he obviously couldn't avoid to make for this "event" has become a favourite story of the Soviets and the Jews - did "confirm" to have destroyed "mass-graves" with 20 or 30 victims. This strongly contradicts the official storyline, because there must have been many, many massgraves with thousands or even ten-thousands of victims, if the orhodox story was true.

What a silly plan, to destroy massgraves with 20 or 30 victims and let the big ones, which would totally bring down the German Katyn-propaganda in the press, be found and presented by the approaching Red Army, which easily could make forensic investigations (even by neutral experts) as the Germans had done in spring 1943 in Katyn.

So my conclusion is:
Nobody denies that there have been some shootings on the Eastern Front (of partisans, people who were suspicious of being or supporting partisans, hostages, communist officials and commissars) and I think it is quite possible that Blobel was ordered in 1943 to erase the traces of these (small) mass-graves, for it would be a great pleasure for the Soviets, if they found some of those graves in order to try to bring down the German Katyn propaganda.

This story has been gigantically exaggerated after the end of the war by the Jews and the Soviets, speaking of huge numbers of victims (ten-thousands per mass-grave), for which they didn't need to provide any evidence - as they thought - for the evil Germans had erased any trace of them.

By the way a characteristic feature of conspiracy theories: there is no evidence, because the Germans (aliens, etc.) have erased every trace of the evidence, so the fact that no evidence can be found proves the truth of the story. :lol:

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Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 1 week ago (Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:06 pm)

ASMarques wrote: it's likely that around one million, perhaps even two million, but no more than that, perished from all causes in Europe during WW2.

Hello ASMarques,

I would be very interested to know what your estimates are for the number of Jews
1.In Europe under German authority during ww2
2.In the partisans
3.In the red army
4.Not evacuated to safe soviet areas
5.Being hidden in attics
6.That were not rounded up for the camps

I know it`s somewhat of a tall order(British understatement!),but I`m just curious to know whether you have broken down this 1-2 million figure at all.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 1 week ago (Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:20 pm)

Thesaint wrote:
ASMarques wrote: it's likely that around one million, perhaps even two million, but no more than that, perished from all causes in Europe during WW2.

Hello ASMarques,

I would be very interested to know what your estimates are for the number of Jews
1.In Europe under German authority during ww2
2.In the partisans
3.In the red army
4.Not evacuated to safe soviet areas
5.Being hidden in attics
6.That were not rounded up for the camps

I know it`s somewhat of a tall order(British understatement!),but I`m just curious to know whether you have broken down this 1-2 million figure at all.


Not my estimates, if you don't mind, but rather the estimates I have found the most convincing. You'll find some on this thread:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5329

Also some useful links in this post of mine to the Richard Dawkins Forum:
http://richarddawkins.net/articleTrollC ... ge1#182645

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Postby teapreacher » 1 decade 1 week ago (Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:48 am)

Desbois gets an article in the Connecticut Post today. The usual stuff of nonsense by the looks of it -

More often than not, the victims would be shot only once, as the Nazis had to ration their bullets. "This was catastrophic for the Jews," Desbois said. "Most were only injured [by the single shot], and were buried alive."



The souvenir photo, one of several he displayed in a brief slide show during his talk, is a good example of the killings that occurred in Eastern Europe. All of the Jewish people in the photo are about to be shot, Desbois explained, except for possibly the baby. The baby likely would have been buried alive. That's why the mother is clutching the child, Desbois said -- she's hoping the bullet used on her will strike the baby as well, saving it from a slow death by suffocation.



Source: http://www.connpost.com/news/ci_11836680

To "learn" more visit...
http://www.holocaustbybullets.com/

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Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 1 week ago (Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:39 pm)

ASMarques wrote:
Thesaint wrote:
ASMarques wrote: it's likely that around one million, perhaps even two million, but no more than that, perished from all causes in Europe during WW2.

Hello ASMarques,

I would be very interested to know what your estimates are for the number of Jews
1.In Europe under German authority during ww2
2.In the partisans
3.In the red army
4.Not evacuated to safe soviet areas
5.Being hidden in attics
6.That were not rounded up for the camps

I know it`s somewhat of a tall order(British understatement!),but I`m just curious to know whether you have broken down this 1-2 million figure at all.


Not my estimates, if you don't mind, but rather the estimates I have found the most convincing. You'll find some on this thread:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5329

Also some useful links in this post of mine to the Richard Dawkins Forum:
http://richarddawkins.net/articleTrollC ... ge1#182645


Many thanks ASMarques.I should have said the estimates of reputable scholars that you give credence to.I was`nt implying that you were plucking figures from the air.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 1 week ago (Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:37 pm)

What evidence is there regarding the ethnicity or religion of these people? It seems that mainstreamers jump at every opportunity to declare something "proof of the holocaust" without bothering to qualify it first.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 week ago (Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:57 am)

PotPie wrote:What evidence is there regarding the ethnicity or religion of these people? It seems that mainstreamers jump at every opportunity to declare something "proof of the holocaust" without bothering to qualify it first.


Talking about quality of evidence, look at the picture in the background:
Image

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 week ago (Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:13 pm)

PotPie wrote:What evidence is there regarding the ethnicity or religion of these people? It seems that mainstreamers jump at every opportunity to declare something "proof of the holocaust" without bothering to qualify it first.


The "Eye Witness Testimony" of Local Inhabitants & Because Desbois said so!

nuff said.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



Helga Zepp-LaRouche.


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