'holocaust' Hist. Project's Zimmerman - more deception

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Hannover
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'holocaust' Hist. Project's Zimmerman - more deception

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:36 am)

Exposing the shyster Zimmerman has become routine for Revisionists.
Read on as Carlo Mattogno demolishes more lies of John Zimmerman.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -disposal/

Zimmerman writes on p.19 of 'Body Disposal at Auschwitz':

Kurt Prüfer, builder of the ovens, was asked why the brick linings of the ovens were damaged so quickly. He replied that the damage resulting after six months was "because the strain on the furnaces was enormous." He recounted how he had told Topf's chief engineer in charge of crematoria, Fritz Sanders, about the strain on the furnaces of so many corpses waiting to be incinerated as a result of the gassing. Sanders stated that he had been told by Prüfer and another Topf engineer that the "capacity of the furnaces was so great because three corpses were incinerated simultaneously."
He adds:
"Prufer said that two bodies were simultaneously incinerated in his presence".

The reference is to the interrogations of the Topf engineers on the part of a Soviet inquiry of SMERSH between 1946 and 1948. The records were published by Gerald Fleming, from which Zimmerman takes his citations (notes 121 and 122).


In reality Kurt Prüfer stated the ***VERY OPPOSITE*** of what Zimmerman attributed to him by means of a despicable manipulation.

On page 200 of the cited work, this is how Fleming summarizes part of the interrogation which K.Prüfer underwent on 5 March 1946:
"Normal crematoria work with prewarmed air so that the corpse burns quickly and without smoke.
As the crematoria in the concentration camps were constructed differently, this procedure could not be used.
The corpses burned more slowly and created more smoke, necessitating ventilation.

Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."

During the interrogation of 19 March, K.Prüfer declared:

"I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. ***In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain."***


Recapitulating, Kurt Prüfer stated that:

1. The cremations in the concentration camp ovens took place "more slowly" than in civilian ovens.
2. In Krema II and Krema III of Birkenau (5 three-muffle ovens) it was possible to cremate 15 cadavers in one hour, that is, the duration of a single cremation was one hour.
3. The attempt to simultaneously cremate two cadavers failed because "the furnaces could not stand the strain."

These three statements alone constitute a radical refutation of Zimmerman's thermotechnical fantasies.

conclusion:
a. in order to prove the thesis of "multiple" cremations, Zimmerman quotes a second-hand declaration of Prüfer and omits the primary declaration of Prüfer himself

b. for the same motive, Zimmerman quotes Prüfer's statement in which he "said that two bodies were simultaneously incinerated in his presence," but omits the statement which follows: "The furnaces could not stand the strain."

These surgical omissions are unequivocal proof of Zimmerman's complete and deliberate deceptiveness.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:11 am)

The attempt to simultaneously cremate two cadavers failed


Pruefer said no such thing. He said: "The furnaces could not stand the strain". What that means exactly is not clear.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:29 am)

By the way, someone at VHO posesses scans of original NKVD interrogation documents. It would be helpful to check them to settle this question.

http://vho.org/VffG/2002/4/Protokolle.html

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:16 pm)

Comments from a prominent anti-revisionist:

When I first read Prufer's statement and deniers claim it refuted simultaneous cremation, I put forward the theory that Prufer was refering in the statement

"I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain."

with "could not stand the strain" not to a specific cremation of two corpses simultaneously, but to the general overuse of the furnaces over a period, caused by regular simultaneous cremations. In other words, simultaneous cremation was possible, but led to damage of the ovens AFTER SOME TIME.

Jurgen Graf has offered another translation of this statement here:

vho.org/VffG/2002/4/Pruefer.html

My rough translation:

"...that in Auschwitz to corpses were pushed into one opening/muffel in my presence instead of a single one, and that the ovens of the crematorium then didn't stand the strain, because there were many corpses to burn."

Clearly, Prufer didn't say the ovens couldn't stand the strain of one single simultaneous cremation, as Revisionists try to allege (Mattogno: "The attempt to simultaneously cremate two cadavers failed").

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:44 pm)

Right, they tried 2 corpses, it damaged the ovens, they stopped.
That shoots down a huge piece of the fraudulent story.

Take note that Prufer stated, and I repeat:
Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."


That's ONE per muffle.

But, highly acclaimed and laughable 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber testified that he inserted & cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke. An absurd impossibility.

And there goes another 'holocau$t' lie.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:44 am)

I contacted Mr. Mattogno and he sent me an excerpt in Russian.

Pri etom Sander privel primer, chto nakhodyas' v Osventsime v moem prisutstvie v vvodnyje otverstija krematorijev /mufli/ vtalkivali po dva tri trupa vmesto odnogo v kazhdoje otverstie i to pechi krematorija ne spravlyalis' s toj nagruzkoj v svyazi chto trupov tam bylo ochen' mnogo dlya szhiganija.



Here's my translation:

...[I said to Sander that for example[*],] in Auschwitz, in my presence, two-three corpses were being pushed [vtalkivali po dva tri trupa - i.e. they were being pushed continuously, it was not a single occurence] into crematoria muffles instead of one, and even then [i to] crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn.


Evidently, Pruefer does not say that ovens couldn't burn 2-3 corpses per muffle. He only says that even by burning 2-3 corpses per muffle they couldn't get rid of all those bodies.

In a message to me Mattogno said that the passage is ambiguous (yet he uses it!). He also said, that both Pruefer and Sander stated that the crematory ovens in Birkenau could incinerate one corpse per muffle per hour.

You be the judge



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[*] "Pri etom Sander privel primer" should be translated as "Sander gave an example", but considering context and idiosyncratic use of foreign surnames in NKVD transcripts, it should be translated as "I gave an example to Sander" ["Pri etom ja Sanderu privel primer"].

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:08 am)

Perhaps it's my Russian, but I see nothing that states 'continuously' as Sergey says. More than one damaging attempt, perhaps. In fact, the assertion of 'continuous' is contradicted by Prufer's statement that:
the crematorium's ovens could not cope with that load


AND, any alleged 'ambiguity' is removed when Prufer says:

Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."


That's ONE per muffle. So, what happened to Sergey's 'continous' cremation of 2-3?


This charade is further enhanced by alleged and laughable 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber when he claims to have inserted & cremated **8 bodies at once**, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke.

Oh yes, we need to mention the lack of human remains to support the allegations. AND, the fact that the WWII aerial photos do not show the alleged huge cremation pits.... that Zimmerman also claims.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:25 am)

Perhaps it's my Russian, but I see nothing that states 'continuously'


It's your Russian. Think about the difference between "vtolknuli" and "vtalkivali".

In fact, the assertion of 'continuous' is contradicted by Prufer's statement that:

Quote:

the crematorium's ovens could not cope with that load


How so?

Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."


Without Russian original AND context it refutes nothing, of course.

This charade is further enhanced by alleged and laughable 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber when he claims to have inserted & cremated **8 bodies at once**, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke.


What's wrong with that?

the lack of human remains to support the allegations


What allegations? That these remains were destroyed? :)

To sum it up, Pruefer's statement is powerful corroboration of multiple cremation thesis. That all the bodies couldn't be destroyed during Pruefer's presence just means that there were lots of them. IF it was impossible to burn 2-3 bodies in a muffle Pruefer would say so. He didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:21 pm)

Image


I'd like to see anyone get more than one person in here. What a joke!

Remembering of course, firebricks are very delicate and are prone to cracking and 'popping' if they have hot-spots caused by contact with anything at high temperatures.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:25 pm)

Yes, I know it is not Auschwitz, but all the ovens are basically the same size. The picture is just to put into perspective, the ludicrous suggestions of more than one body being burnt at once.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:40 pm)

Sergey, then do tell us:
It's your Russian. Think about the difference between "vtolknuli" and "vtalkivali".


Prufer said:
the crematorium's ovens could not cope with that load


Had multiple cremations per muffle been 'continuous' as Sergey wants to believe, then Prufer would not have made such a statement. They tried, it failed. Hence the opposite of 'continuous' is the case...just as Mattogno said.

the 'smoking gun' is:
Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."


That's ONE per muffle, no 'context' is needed...in fact the request for 'context' appears to be a diversion, and Prufer said it, Sergey denies it.

I said:
This charade is further enhanced by alleged and laughable 'eyewitness' Henryk Tauber when he claims to have inserted & cremated **8 bodies at once**, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke.


Sergey asks:
What's wrong with that?


Well Sergey, the most basic point is that 8 bodies couldn't simultaneously fit into the cremation ovens....simple math, simple logic.

Then Sergey tries to say that human remains just disappear, and that the alleged massives pits just vanished. Mysteriously the alleged massive pits were like Count Dracula and did not show up the WWII aerial photos.

Sergey tries a straw man when he implies that Revisionist believe that it was 'impossible' to cremate 2-3 per muffle on an occasion. False. We believe it may have been tried and that the result was damage to the ovens (exactly as Prufer stated) and that 2 corpses had to be force fit if tried, therefore the general claim by the Believers of multiple cremations is indeed quite false and hints of desperation.

Only with the so called 'holocau$t' can the real facts be turned upside down and pushed as 'powerful corroboration'.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:34 pm)

Turpitz wrote:Yes, I know it is not Auschwitz, but all the ovens are basically the same size. The picture is just to put into perspective, the ludicrous suggestions of more than one body being burnt at once.


Let me help you out here. You are absolutely on the right track. Some photos of ovens:

Auschwitz I

Image
Ravensbrück

Image
Terezin

Image
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:41 pm)

The height:
I count roughly 'Seven' courses of bricks at the openings. Each brick (including the bed it's laid on (5/16's or 10mm) is just under 3 inches (75mm) in height. So seven courses at three inches equals 21 inches (530mm)

The width:
I count roughly 'three' bricks for the openings. Each brick (including it's perp (5/16's or 10mm) is just under nine inches (230mm) in lenght. So three bricks at nine inches equals 27 inches (690mm).

So there we have it. all these bodies were shoved into openings 21''x27'' (530mm x 690mm)

Ha, Ha, Ha. What a laugh !

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:28 am)

I'd like to see anyone get more than one person in here. What a joke!


We're not talking about Dachau. If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

but all the ovens are basically the same size


What is the exact size of the oven Tauber was talking about?

Had multiple cremations per muffle been 'continuous' as Sergey wants to believe, then Prufer would not have made such a statement. They tried, it failed.


They failed to dispose of the many bodies in Pruefer's presence, that's true. That's what Pruefer said. Pruefer did not say that multiple cremations failed. In fact, his "even then" implies that they are more effective than single cremations! Exactly what Zimmerman said.

That's ONE per muffle, no 'context' is needed...in fact the request for 'context' appears to be a diversion, and Prufer said it, Sergey denies it.


Bring me Russian original AND context. We have already seen that Fleming's, Mattogno's and Graf's translations cannot be trusted, so I need the original.

Well Sergey, the most basic point is that 8 bodies couldn't simultaneously fit into the cremation ovens....simple math, simple logic.


I haven't seen any math in your posting. Care to prove you assertions?

We believe it may have been tried and that the result was damage to the ovens (exactly as Prufer stated)


It's a lie, since Pruefer never said such thing.

and that 2 corpses had to be force fit if tried


Prove it. In fact, Pruefer's testimony proves you wrong. He said that they pushed 2-3 bodies in a muffle. This "3" is omitted by "revisionists". Why? Because it proves that at least 3 corpses could be fit in a muffle AND because it means that it was not a single occurence (otherwise it would have been either 2 or 3, not "2-3". Pruefer's "even then" implies that even in this more effective way they couldn't dispose of all the bodies in Pruefer's presence.

This is what Pruefer said:

I said to Sander that I was present at testing of the Auschwitz camp ovens and reached the conclusion that crematoria can't cope with the number of the corpses to be burned because crematoria ovens have low capacity. I said to Sander that, for example, in Auschwitz, in my presence, two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria muffles instead of one, and even then crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn.


So even in these low-capacity crematoria at least 3 bodies could be burned in a muffle, though the amount of corpses was so large that ovens weren't enough to dispose of all corpses - that is, at least during Pruefer's presence.

And of course, Pruefer said that these were corpses of gassed people. Oops! There goes "revisionism".

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:17 pm)

Sergey please show us a crematory 'oven' that you think is the type that Prufer & Tauber were referring to. I'll wait. This is laughable.

So now Sergey has become a Revisionist and stated that the 'holocau$t' Industry's Fleming AND Zimmerman cannot be trusted, you gotta love that one!
Mattogno turns the tables on Zimmerman and Fleming as Mattogno cites Fleming's translation of the Soviet interrogation, and Zimmerman uses the same Fleming translation, but Zimmerman omits the damning lines.
So, I guess Zimmerman has now lost Sergey's trust.
Sergey! A Revisionist is born! Or, he merely trips upon his own feet. :P

Nope, Prufer clearly states damage was caused to the 'ovens' (does Sergey deny this too?) with 2-3 corpses per cremation, which having seen the size of the 'ovens' would have necessitated a forced fit. Sergey dares not (cannot) show us an 'oven' he feels could susbtantiate his numbers.

Sergey is in deep do-do with Prufer's statement (cited by Fleming, Fleming cited by Zimmerman :wink:):
Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?

Answer: "In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned."

That's ONE per muffle.

Show us this dream crematory 'oven', Sergey. Do it now, I challenge you. I'm waiting.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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