David Irving regarding mass murders in "Reinhardt"

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Germania
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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:22 am)

Turpitz wrote:I don't think people quite understood me. When I meant "sites" I was referring to the grave sites, not the theme park and the tacky post-war fiddling that has taken place (mostly to impede investigation of course).


i already told you where. in Belzec a mass grave area of 5919 m² has been identified. The graves were presumably 5 m deep as follows from the physical findings of Kula ("he majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m") and confirmed by former SS man Schluch ("Ich meine aber, daß die Grube 5 bis 6 m tief gewesen sein kann"),which results in 29595 m³ of mass grave volume. how many corpses fit into this volume? according to experiment by revisionist researcher provan, 28 people with half of this children fit into 1 m² alive. it is clear that this must be true also for dead people and if wetake into account 1,8 m for their height, we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter.

therefore, it was possible to put about 444,000 corpses in the mass grave sites at Belzec. and indeed, 434,508 jews were deported and murdered there.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:38 am)

PotPie wrote:Saying that Jews were shot on the eastern front is vague, and probably intentionally so. Undoubtedly many of them were involved with the Partisans and Soviets in some manner or another.



so you mean when Einsatzkommando official Jäger reported in february 1942 that his commando has executed 138,272 people (98% Jews), therof 1064 COMMUNISTS, 56 PARTISTANS, but 55,556 WOMEN and 34,464 CHILDREN you think this was anti-partisan warfare?

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:57 am)

Germania wrote:
Turpitz wrote:
Accepting that the Höfle document and Korherr report are not forgeries) the Nazis and their accomplices murdered 2.4 million Jews in the "Reinhardt" camps along the Bug River (Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor);


Now that's a lot of people! has anyone ever found these huge sites?


i think Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor are well known sites.
He's talking about grave sites for 2.4 Million people or at least a substantial fraction of it. And their the Holocaustians never managed to show anything convincing. Since single graves are what would have to be expected from areas were large camps were residing for quite a while.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:39 am)

Germania thinks that mentioning the discredited 'Jaeger Report' and a proven shyster named Kola (Germania erred by calling him 'Kula'), it somehow matters. Well, it's all been demolished before, see just a few examples:

'Jaeger Report'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4248

'Einsatzgruppen Reports'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4312

'Belzec: a fraudulent excavation
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=30

'Belzec/Kola - Going to extremes to sell the lie'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=368

This is too easy..

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:43 am)

i already told you where. in Belzec a mass grave area of 5919 m² has been identified. The graves were presumably 5 m deep as follows from the physical findings of Kula ("he majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m") and confirmed by former SS man Schluch


Honestly, can you show me it?

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:02 am)

Turpitz wrote:
i already told you where. in Belzec a mass grave area of 5919 m² has been identified. The graves were presumably 5 m deep as follows from the physical findings of Kula ("he majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m") and confirmed by former SS man Schluch


Honestly, can you show me it?


i shall show you a library where you can obtain a copy of Kola's archeological investigation?

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:57 pm)

this is easy, there is plenty of evidence. For example, goverment official Goebbels noted on 27 march 1942:


Where?

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:33 pm)

I always have a little chuckle when I see the holocult numbers regarding how many folk can fit into a cubic meter.

Germania demonstrates how the fantasy must be bolstered by other fantasies in order to make sense. ("we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter")

According to the 'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition' the figure: 1.015kg is the volume/mass of the human body per liter. This figure is adjusted for the volume of gas in the lungs and intestinal tract.

So, according to the Journal, and discounting the negligible 0.015kg, we can confidently say the volume/mass of the human body is the same as water. And that's not surprising since the body is mainly water.

The average weight of an American male, prior to 1960 was 73.5kg. (Between 1960 and 1990 the average increased 12.25kg. That must be the KFC/McDonald's effect). So doing the math with the earlier figure and remembering there is no lung capacity included; also, we have to put all the bodies through the mincer first, to get them to fill out the entire space, we get:

1 litre of water = 1 kilogram.

1 cubic metre = 1000 cubic liters.

1000 cubic litres divided by 73.5 liters = 13.5 people, minced up and packaged as found at the local butcher.

Of cause, in practical terms, and using a wool press to squeeze em all in, we could expect to get no more than eight, at a real pinch, including a couple of contortionists. Getting the lid on is another matter.

These figures do need to be adjusted to see how many holocult believers will fit in a square metre. Doing the math we immediately discover holocult believers are not 70% water. They are 70% hot air. Some, like Eli Weisel, are 100% hot air. I figure with the right equipment we could get ALL the holocult believers squished into 1 cubic metre, with a goodly space left over.

Correlation between body volume and body mass in men

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/11/1308

The Human Body - In The United States, What Is The Average Height And Weight For A Man And A Woman?

http://www.enotes.com/science-fact-find ... ht-for-man
Last edited by Kiwichap on Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:40 pm)

Germania wrote:
Turpitz wrote:
i think Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor are well known sites.


Are they now?

Maybe you can show me why I should think "2.4 million" were murdered here then?

Go on, I dare you!


this is easy, there is plenty of evidence. For example, goverment official Goebbels noted on 27 march 1942:
Where did he mention that - In his type-written diaries? What's your proof for them being authentic documents?
Germania wrote:"Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said about 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor."
Did Goebbels write in English? That sounds like the private oppinion of someone that's not very fond of Jews, since it doesn't say that someone from the government has ordered to kill all the Jews. It doesn't mention any of the places mentioned previously.
Germania wrote:he also mentions that the former Gauleiter of vienna is in charge of this operation, who is no other than globocnik who was in charge of Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. so according to this goverment official the jews were to be liquidated in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.
Where does he mention that? That is something that you interpret into this document for whose authenticity you haven't proven at all.
And be adviced, something on a piece of paper won't have been a substitute for physical evidence either.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:11 pm)

Where does he mention that? That is something that you interpret into this document for whose authenticity you haven't proven at all.


The problem they have, is whenever they quote a scrap of paper, the obvious and only way to verify it's authenticity is to back the quote up with hard evidence, otherwise the quote is meaningless. The industry cannot do this, so they work on the premise that gullible folk will just accept the quote outright without asking questions (this is what happens the majority of the time).

If you persist in asking for the evidence that verifies the quote, the industry is exposed for what it is, a foundationless load of wind.

No-one has exhumed any of these sites, so how does anyone know what is there? Such arrogant, conceited bastards, trying to tell everyone what is in the ground without even bothering to look for themselves. I mean the audacity of it.

It is the industry's worst nightmare, the day someone walks into one of these odious theme parks with a shovel under his arm.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:23 pm)

i shall show you a library where you can obtain a copy of Kola's archeological investigation?


I would be far more interested in looking at the reels of colour film that he took during the exhumations of these mass grave sites, that verified their existence. He did take some footage didn't he? I mean, it was the late twentieth century, and no-one in their right mind would undertake such an historically important task without making damn sure they recorded it. And decent camera equipment has been readily available to anyone for years.

So, can you give me a link so I might see this huge murder site and the tremendous work Koka-Kola did in uncovering it, and recording it, so we might all learn from it?

Thanks.

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Postby Occam's Razor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:00 pm)

Germania wrote:
i already told you where. in Belzec a mass grave area of 5919 m² has been identified. The graves were presumably 5 m deep as follows from the physical findings of Kula ("he majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m") and confirmed by former SS man Schluch ("Ich meine aber, daß die Grube 5 bis 6 m tief gewesen sein kann"),which results in 29595 m³ of mass grave volume. how many corpses fit into this volume? according to experiment by revisionist researcher provan, 28 people with half of this children fit into 1 m² alive. it is clear that this must be true also for dead people and if wetake into account 1,8 m for their height, we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter.


Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that theoretically, under experimental conditions, it is possible to put 15 corpses into 1 cubic meter. That doesn't mean that you can assume, without confirmation, that this is a reasonable average for a huge mass grave. The correct method would be to find other mass graves, calculate their average, and then use this as a realistic average. That's what Carlo Mattogno did. And that's why revisionists like Mattogno are scientists and wannabe "holocaust historians" like you are not.


therefore, it was possible to put about 444,000 corpses in the mass grave sites at Belzec. and indeed, 434,508 jews were deported and murdered there.


Another logical fallacy. It's obvious that large numbers of jews where sent to the Reinhardt camps. If we assume that the Hoefle telegram is genuine, it follows that the number of Jews who were sent to Belzec is at least 434,508. What NOT follows is that they were murdered there.There is no neccesity to automatically assume that the jews who were sent to Belzec were murdered there, just because we know the number of jews who were sent there. But this number, in the form of the Hoefle telegram, is used by people like you as evidence for this mass murder. What people like you don't get is that the Hoefle telegram can only be evidence of the number of jews who were sent to Belzec, but it can not be evidence that these people were murdered there.

I suggest that you study this text very carefully:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)


It's so ridiculous that the only evidence for this alleged gigantic mass murder you and your fellow believers can come up with is a few sheets of paper. A few out-of-context pieces of public speeches and books, where the National Socialists allegedly declared their plans in public when, allegedly, at the same time their plans were so secret that they destroyed all the evidence, and a few out-of-context and misinterpreted documents.


And regarding your "excavations" and "archeological research": Take the investigation of the Katyn massacre by the Germans as a standard. They invited specialists from all sides as well as from non-involved parties. This is the only way to prevent one side from cheating. You are essentially admitting that you and your phony "holocaust historians" cannot even meet the scientific standards of the Nazis. As long as one side is not allowed to investigate these sites and risks imprisonment, as long as a fair public debate about this topic is not possible, as long as this "research is not thoroughly documented, your pseudoscientific so-called "archeological research" is totally worthless.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:53 am)

Kiwichap wrote:I always have a little chuckle when I see the holocult numbers regarding how many folk can fit into a cubic meter.

Germania demonstrates how the fantasy must be bolstered by other fantasies in order to make sense. ("we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter")

According to the 'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition' the figure: 1.015kg is the volume/mass of the human body per liter. This figure is adjusted for the volume of gas in the lungs and intestinal tract.

So, according to the Journal, and discounting the negligible 0.015kg, we can confidently say the volume/mass of the human body is the same as water. And that's not surprising since the body is mainly water.

The average weight of an American male, prior to 1960 was 73.5kg.


and this is your mistake. the victims burried in Belzec were everything else than average American male prior to 1960! there were, for the most part,women, elderly and children.

in his experiments revisionist Provan has taken people with an average weight of 33,25 kg (as 35 kg was estimated by gerstein when he visitited Belzec). this makes 1000/33,25 kg = 30 corpses per m³. so the THEORETICAL packing density is in fact twice as high as the EXPERIMENTAL packing density for living people, which I assumed for my conservative estimation and therfore already takes in account imperfect packaging. even if we assume an average weight of 50 kg, the theoretical packing density is 20 per m³ and so 25% higher then in my calculation and therfore would take in account imperfect packaging too.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:19 am)

Hektor wrote:
Germania wrote:
Turpitz wrote:
i think Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor are well known sites.


Are they now?

Maybe you can show me why I should think "2.4 million" were murdered here then?

Go on, I dare you!


this is easy, there is plenty of evidence. For example, goverment official Goebbels noted on 27 march 1942:
Where did he mention that - In his type-written diaries? What's your proof for them being authentic documents?


the Goebbels diaries have been studied by historians for years and there is no reason to doubt their authentic. however to satisfy you, the authenticity of the plates of the diaries is a proven fact:

"The tests included tests by Dr David Baxendale and Dr Audrey Giles, forensic document analysts; by Pilkington Group Analytical services, on the glass plates; and by Kodak photographic laboratories on the emulsion. After these experts authenticated the glass microfiche plates the plates were without exception returned safely and undamaged to the custody of the Moscow archives on or before July 3, 1992."

http://fpp.co.uk/Legal/Penguin/Reply/5.html#a56


Germania wrote:"Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said about 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 percent can be used for forced labor."
Did Goebbels write in English? That sounds like the private oppinion of someone that's not very fond of Jews, since it doesn't say that someone from the government has ordered to kill all the Jews.


the statement by this goverment official is very clear - 60% of the Jews in the Generalgouvernement will be liquidated. and since it wouldn't be possible for the police to this without order from the goverment,it implies this was already ordered by the goverment.

Germania wrote:he also mentions that the former Gauleiter of vienna is in charge of this operation, who is no other than globocnik who was in charge of Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. so according to this goverment official the jews were to be liquidated in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.
Where does he mention that?


I quote further from the diary entry:

"Der ehemalige Gauleiter von Wien, der diese Aktion durchführt, tut das mit ziemlicher Umsicht und auch mit einem Verfahren, das nicht allzuauffällig wirkt."

here is the picture of Globocnik as Gauleiter:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... bocnik.jpg

and here is Hitlers thank you to Globocnik for carrying out Aktion Reinhardt:

"Dear Globus!

I acknowledge your letter of 11-4-43 and your report about the end of 'Operation Reinhardt.' In addition, I thank you for the attached files. I acknowledge your great and unique service in accomplishing 'Operation Reinhardt' for the glory of the whole German Nation. My thanks and appreciation.

Heil Hitler!

Sincerely yours,

H.H."

http://www.istrianet.org/istria/history ... ik-bio.htm

another interesting detail is,that Globocnik was provided men for his operation Reinhardt by Brack,who was in charge of Euthanasia:

"Ich habe den Brigadeführer G l o b o c n i k auf Anweisung von Reichsleiter Bouhler für die Durchführung seiner Sonderaufgaben schon vor längerer Zeit einen Teil meiner Männer zur verfügung gestellt. Aufgrund einer erneuten Bitte von ihm habe ich nunmehr weiteres Personal abgestellt. Bei dieser Gelegenheit vertrat Brigadeführer Globocnik die Auffassung, die ganze Judenaktion so schnell wie nur irgend möglich durchzuführen, damit man nicht eines Tages mitten drin steckenbliebe, wenn irgendwelche Schwierigkeiten ein Abstoppen der Aktion notwendig machen. Sie selbst, Reichsführer, haben mir gegenüber seinerzeit schon die Meinung geäußert, dass man schon aus Gründen der Tarnung so schnell wie möglich arbeiten müsse."

(letter Brack to Himmler, 23 June 1942)

on the other hand, Brack was also in charge of developing homicidal gassing devices:

"With reference to my letter of October 18, 1941, this is to inform you that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Führer Chancellery has agreed to collaborate in the production of the required shelters and gassing devices. At this time, the envisaged devices are not available in sufficient quantity; they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion, the manufacture of the devices in the Reich will cause much greater difficulties than doing it on the spot, Brack considers it most expedient to send his people to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will effect all further steps there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that the procedure in question is not without danger, so that special protective measures are necessary. In these circumstances, I request that you address yourself to Oberdienstleiter Brack in the Führer Chancellery through your Higher SS and Police Leader and request the dispatch of the chemist Kallmeyer and other assistants. I should inform you that Sturmbannführer Eichmann, the expert for the Jewish Question in the RSHA is entirely in agreement with this process. According to information from Sturmbannführer Eichmann, camps for Jews are to be set up in Riga and Minsk, to which Jews from the Old Reich territory may also come. At this time, Jews are being evacuated out of the Old Reich to Litzmannstadt (Lodz), and also other camps, to then later be used for labour in the east insofar as they are capable of work.

As things now are, there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy. In this way, events such as those that, according to a report in front of me, took place on the occasion of the shootings of the Jews in Vilna, and which, considering that the shootings were carried out in public, can hardly be excused, will no longer be possible. On the other hand, those capable of work will be transported for labour in the east. It goes without saying that the male and female Jews capable of work will be kept apart."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19411025-wetzel-no365

So lets recapitulate:

we have Globocnik in charge of Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Operation Reinhardt, who was given assistance by men from Brack, who were killing specialists with gas. then we have the Höfle radio message noting that 1274166 people have been poured into Globocniks camps in 1942. then we have goverment official Goebbels noting that Globocnik's operation means the liquidation of 60% of the jews in the generalgouvernement.

so just add 1 + 1 together and you see the nature of the Reinhardt camps.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:02 am)

Occam's Razor wrote:Germania wrote:
i already told you where. in Belzec a mass grave area of 5919 m² has been identified. The graves were presumably 5 m deep as follows from the physical findings of Kula ("he majority of graves situated here reached the depth between 4,00-5,00 m") and confirmed by former SS man Schluch ("Ich meine aber, daß die Grube 5 bis 6 m tief gewesen sein kann"),which results in 29595 m³ of mass grave volume. how many corpses fit into this volume? according to experiment by revisionist researcher provan, 28 people with half of this children fit into 1 m² alive. it is clear that this must be true also for dead people and if wetake into account 1,8 m for their height, we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter.


Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that theoretically, under experimental conditions, it is possible to put 15 corpses into 1 cubic meter. That doesn't mean that you can assume, without confirmation, that this is a reasonable average for a huge mass grave. The correct method would be to find other mass graves, calculate their average, and then use this as a realistic average. That's what Carlo Mattogno did. And that's why revisionists like Mattogno are scientists and wannabe "holocaust historians" like you are not.


actually the exact opposite is true. it is entirely not scientific to compare a grave elsewhere with different composition of corpses and made under different circumstances and intentions with the mass graves for murdered victims in Belzec. it is comparing oranges and apples. and that's why Mattogno is not considered a scientist.

so if Mattogno mentions alleged 1,4 corpses per cm³ in a mass grave in a work camp according to a soviet sources, than this is clearly not even near to an attempt of a well packed mass grave and has no relevance whatsoever for the mass graves in Belzec extermination camp.






therefore, it was possible to put about 444,000 corpses in the mass grave sites at Belzec. and indeed, 434,508 jews were deported and murdered there.


Another logical fallacy. It's obvious that large numbers of jews where sent to the Reinhardt camps. If we assume that the Hoefle telegram is genuine, it follows that the number of Jews who were sent to Belzec is at least 434,508. What NOT follows is that they were murdered there.There is no neccesity to automatically assume that the jews who were sent to Belzec were murdered there, just because we know the number of jews who were sent there. But this number, in the form of the Hoefle telegram, is used by people like you as evidence for this mass murder. What people like you don't get is that the Hoefle telegram can only be evidence of the number of jews who were sent to Belzec, but it can not be evidence that these people were murdered there.


you did not pay attention to this thread. i have already demonstrated the Einsatz Reinhardt camps were to liqudate the jews of generalgouverment according to a german goverment official. it can also be shown that only jews not fit work were sent to Belzec:

"It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [sic] the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."

(memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942)

so we have 430000 people deported to Belezc according to german police --> we know they were jews not fit for work according to german goverment official --> we know they were liquidated according to german goverment official --> case shown.


It's so ridiculous that the only evidence for this alleged gigantic mass murder you and your fellow believers can come up with is a few sheets of paper.


its not, as i said there is plenty of evidence, including documents from police, army, administration and goverment, intelligence reports, resistance reports and testimonial evidence from victims, bystanders and perpetrators.

where? in the holocaust bibliography. there is a lot for you to discover there.

but for the start you may want to check out Browning's excellent introduction into this issue:

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning


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