David Irving regarding mass murders in "Reinhardt"

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Turpitz
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:20 am)

so if Mattogno mentions alleged 1,4 corpses per cm³ in a mass grave in a work camp according to a soviet sources, than this is clearly not even near to an attempt of a well packed mass grave and has no relevance whatsoever for the mass graves in Belzec extermination camp.


I'll tell you what is of no relevance, and that is all your bureaucratic waffle; until you can come up with some evidence of these silly graves that don't exist.

its not, as i said there is plenty of evidence, including documents from police, army, administration and goverment, intelligence reports, resistance reports and testimonial evidence from victims, bystanders and perpetrators.


That is not evidence, that is paperwork (highly dubious at that). Evidence of a mass killing ground would consist of mass graves and the remains of 2.4 million corpses.

Okay so no-one took any film of this well documented event of Koka-Kola's. So have you got any decent photographs of these graves whilst they were being investigated at least?

P.S. Preferably taken with a camera other than a Box Brownie and not in a blizzard. Also a resolution higher than 3dpi would be handy?

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Postby Occam's Razor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:22 pm)

Germania wrote:
and that's why Mattogno is not considered a scientist.

Yeah, sure. Just like a German court ruled that Rudolfs expert report was unscientific. As if a judge could decide that without even trying to call for a counter expert report, without asking any other experts / chemists and without allowing Rudolf to defend his claims.


it is entirely not scientific to compare a grave elsewhere with different composition of corpses and made under different circumstances and intentions with the mass graves for murdered victims in Belzec. it is comparing oranges and apples.

Let me guess, why. Because of the Singularity(TM)?
Why would a mass grave in Belzec be fundamentally different from any other mass grave? What you're saying is that the laws of nature don't apply to the "holocaust". I assume that mass graves share certain similarities. It may be possible that the number of children, women and older people was larger and therefore the average size and weight of these persons could have been smaller. But it is not possible to assume that this reduction in size / weight automatically leads to your figures of 15 corpses per cubic meter. It's a logical fallacy to assume that because s.th. could be theoretically possible, that this is a valid assumption for a real-world mass grave average of corpses per cubic meter.


so if Mattogno mentions alleged 1,4 corpses per cm³ in a mass grave in a work camp according to a soviet sources, than this is clearly not even near to an attempt of a well packed mass grave and has no relevance whatsoever for the mass graves in Belzec extermination camp.


1,4 corpses per cm³

I guess that's a typo.

Mattogno compared the number of corpses per cubic meter from several mass grave sites. That's the most realistic approach. You try to find out what is possible under real-world-conditions. What you get is a range between a maximum and a minimum density. If your claim strongly deviates from this average you need very convincing arguments, that is, physical proof.

A scientific theory remains a theory as lang as someone tries to prove or falsify the theory in a scientific experiment. That's why car builders don't trust in their computer simulations, they make real crash-tests. You claim (according to Provan) that such and such a number of corpses fits into one cubic meter. That's a claim, a proposal, a theory. And it will remain a claim or theory as long as you or anyone else proves, either with an experiment or with a similar acknowledged, undisputed and well-researched mass grave, the validity of this claim.

according to a soviet sources

Do you want to imply that soviet sources are not credible?


it can also be shown that only jews not fit work were sent to Belzec:

"It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [sic] the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."

(memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942)


You really have a non-sequitur problem.
What you have is an alleged "memo" of a "government official". Let's assume the memo is genuine. In this memo Mr. Fritz Reuter expresses a wish. Or a kind of advice: "It would be expedient..."

It's a non sequitur to assume, without further proof, that someone fulfilled his wish. You may find that pedantic, but I remind you that we are dealing with a grave accusation. It seems to be your modus operandi to cherry-pick a few vague quotes and concoct them into a - in your view meaningful - chain of evidence. With exactly the same kind of reasoning I can prove that witchcraft did happen and that witch trials were fair and justified. Your "chain of evidence" falls apart as soon as even only one piece of your evidence is wrong. Only one part of your Nazi-quotes that you use needs to be either a forgery or out of context, and your whole chain of evidence falls apart.

Imagine someone wanted to prove the reality of alien abductions. And all he would come up with was a few "government documents" and "eye-witness testimonies". Go to youtube and search for "alien abductions". There are plenty of "eye-witness" testimonies. Would you accept all this as evidence? Probably not. Nobody in their right mind accepts evidence like that. Scientists want physical evidence. All the "eye-witnesses" are either liars or need psychological help. No serious scientist believes in alien abductions precisely because of the total lack of any credible physical evidence. And that's the problem of your fellow holocult believers. Total lack of any credible physical evidence. And it gets even better. Anyone who challenges this laughable story can find himself in a prison cell in several western countries. That's why no serious scientist who has studied the holocaust claims believes in this nonsense.


so we have 430000 people deported to Belezc according to german police --> we know they were jews not fit for work according to german goverment official --> we know they were liquidated according to german goverment official --> case shown.


so we have thousands of witches who were convicted for witchcraft --> we know that witchcraft exists --> we have eyewitnesses who saw how the witch performed her diabolical deeds --> we have a confession from the witch--> case shown.


The difference between medieval times and modern science is that today we know the value of physical evidence.



where? in the holocaust bibliography. there is a lot for you to discover there.
but for the start you may want to check out Browning's excellent introduction into this issue:
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning

Thanks Germania, I really appreciate your help.

Btw, in your chain of evidence you totally omit all the contradictions and physical impossibilities. Even if we assume that all the claims of Diesel engines are the result of an unfortunate misunderstanding and the Nazis really used gasoline engines, it is very strange that the "eye-witnesses" describe the skin-color of the victims with all kinds of colors, except cherry-red, which is so typical of fatal carbon monoxide poisoning. I could go on and on about all the problems of the claims regarding mass gassings at the Aktion Reinhardt camps, but they have been covered here in depth in other threads.

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:03 pm)

Germania wrote:....
actually the exact opposite is true. it is entirely not scientific to compare a grave elsewhere with different composition of corpses and made under different circumstances and intentions with the mass graves for murdered victims in Belzec. it is comparing oranges and apples. and that's why Mattogno is not considered a scientist.

so if Mattogno mentions alleged 1,4 corpses per cm³ in a mass grave in a work camp according to a soviet sources, than this is clearly not even near to an attempt of a well packed mass grave and has no relevance whatsoever for the mass graves in Belzec extermination camp.

Why not show us the apples, "well packed mass graves in Belzec"? And while you are at it, you can also show us where an official document calls Belzec an "extermination camp" or are you trying to settle the case by calling it an imagined name?

Germania wrote:
Another logical fallacy. It's obvious that large numbers of jews where sent to the Reinhardt camps. If we assume that the Hoefle telegram is genuine, it follows that the number of Jews who were sent to Belzec is at least 434,508. What NOT follows is that they were murdered there....

you did not pay attention to this thread. i have already demonstrated the Einsatz Reinhardt camps were to liqudate the jews of generalgouverment according to a german goverment official. it can also be shown that only jews not fit work were sent to Belzec:


No, you did not demonstrate that. You just took an apparantly private opinion from a person nobody claims to be personally involved into the killing of Jews and interpreted something into that source which you haven't proven to be an authentic source.

And isn't that funny. You can not show us any documents that were created actually reporting about the activities that you allege.


Germania wrote:"It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [sic] the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."
(memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942)
The said is perfectly in line with the thesis that Belzec was a transit camp.

Germania wrote:so we have 430000 people deported to Belezc according to german police --> we know they were jews not fit for work according to german goverment official --> we know they were liquidated according to german goverment official --> case shown.
That's mental acrobatics with unverified sources, hence nothing shown, but the extent of willingness to bend facts in order to pin something on the Germans.

Germania wrote:....
It's so ridiculous that the only evidence for this alleged gigantic mass murder you and your fellow believers can come up with is a few sheets of paper.


its not, as i said there is plenty of evidence, including documents from police, army, administration and goverment, intelligence reports, resistance reports and testimonial evidence from victims, bystanders and perpetrators. ...
Evidence that you bend and misrepresent in a way you've done just now, right?

To be taken serious the proponents of the Holocaust thesis need to come up with factual evidence. Showing us a mass grave in Belzec would be a good start.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:06 am)

So, I take it you have no decent film and no decent photographs of this thorough investigation. Well that's really confidence inspiring that is.

It sounds like another industry scam to invent evidence that doesn't exist. presented via meaningless pieces of paper with blobs drawn on -- good stuff!

I find it almost beyond belief that you have the front to even try and present this pitiful garbage (especially at this forum), and honestly expect people to swallow it. You have either got to be totally insane, or such a liar, that I can't even begin to comprehend it.

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Postby Reinhard » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:07 am)

Germania wrote:
Kiwichap wrote:I always have a little chuckle when I see the holocult numbers regarding how many folk can fit into a cubic meter.

Germania demonstrates how the fantasy must be bolstered by other fantasies in order to make sense. ("we have about 15 corpses per cubic meter")

According to the 'American Journal of Clinical Nutrition' the figure: 1.015kg is the volume/mass of the human body per liter. This figure is adjusted for the volume of gas in the lungs and intestinal tract.

So, according to the Journal, and discounting the negligible 0.015kg, we can confidently say the volume/mass of the human body is the same as water. And that's not surprising since the body is mainly water.

The average weight of an American male, prior to 1960 was 73.5kg.


and this is your mistake. the victims burried in Belzec were everything else than average American male prior to 1960! there were, for the most part,women, elderly and children.

in his experiments revisionist Provan has taken people with an average weight of 33,25 kg (as 35 kg was estimated by gerstein when he visitited Belzec)...


What a bullshit.

By the way, Gerstein points out about six times in two sentences that it was a diesel-engine what they used there.
But in this point he allegedly couldn't distinguish between diesel and gasoline engines (as a mining engineer!!) according to "specialists" like you, but all the other bullshit he described was of course all true, when it fitted the Ho£o€au$t™-Industrie's interests.

For the "confessions" of Kurt Gerstein see here:

Henri Roques, »Die "Geständnisse" des Kurt Gerstein. Zur Problematik eines Schlüsseldokuments«

An average weight of 33,25 kg - an adult person hardly could stand and walk on his feet then.


Germania wrote:the Goebbels diaries have been studied by historians for years and there is no reason to doubt their authentic. however to satisfy you, the authenticity of the plates of the diaries is a proven fact


For the Goebbels diaries see here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3793

That's your "evidence":

Image


Image

Typewritten, everybody who had captured the fitting typewriter would have been able to type anything he wanted on a sheet of paper.

Note that the crucial passage begins at the bottom of page -19- (only half of a sentence »Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt,« [»From the General Gouvernment now are«]), this page could easily have been retyped years after the original page had been typed in 1942, adding one half-sentence, which is continued then on page -20-.

No signature, no letterhead, nothing.
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«
Orwell 1984

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:12 am)

Turpitz wrote:I find it almost beyond belief that you have the front to even try and present this pitiful garbage (especially at this forum), and honestly expect people to swallow it. You have either got to be totally insane, or such a liar, that I can't even begin to comprehend it.


I suspect Germania has just fallen into his own self made trap, forced to forge ahead with the belief in the Holocaust Myth in the face of real forensic evidence simply in order not to look like a complete idiot.

Sooner or later their arguments degenerate to nothing more than attempts at "saving face" at this point they're usually outed as immature "Forum Trolls".
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:46 am)

Note that the crucial passage begins at the bottom of page -19- (only half of a sentence »Aus dem Generalgouvernement werden jetzt,« [»From the General Gouvernment now are«]), this page could easily have been retyped years after the original page had been typed in 1942, adding one half-sentence, which is continued then on page -20-.


This is reminiscent of a situation that Elizabeth I was in whilst residing in the Tower. She was in correspondence with Mary Queen of Scots, who was trying to find evidence of treason. One of Elizabeth's letters (which still exists) finished only two-thirds down the page. She had the foresight to fill the remaining space with horizontal lines, and her signature, so as to stop any nice soul adding a little extra.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:25 pm)

Actually it was diagonal:

Image

Pity the Hun's didn't follow suit.

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Postby Occam's Razor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:14 pm)

Germania wrote:
it can also be shown that only jews not fit work were sent to Belzec:

"It would be expedient to divide the transports of Jews arriving in the Lublin district at the station of origin into employable and unemployable Jews. If it is not possible to make this distinction at the departure station, then the transport will have to be divided in Lublin in the manner mentioned above. All unemployable Jews are to come to Bezec [sic] the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."

(memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942)


and

where? in the holocaust bibliography. there is a lot for you to discover there.
but for the start you may want to check out Browning's excellent introduction into this issue:
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning


Let's see what your source has to say about this quote:

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning/530

C. Documentary Evidence concerning the Camps of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka.

In preparation for the simultaneous influx of Jewish transports from outside the Third Reich and Slovakia, Hermann Höfle on Globobnik's staff met with Richard Türk of the Lublin district's Department of Population and Welfare on March 16, 1942, the same day that the clearing of the Lublin ghetto began. Türk reported the results of the conversation:

1) It would be expedient to divide the Jews in the transports coming into the district of Lublin already at the departure station into those capable and those not capable of work. If this separation is not possible at the departure station, one must then switch over to dividing the transport in Lublin according to the above-mentioned viewpoint.
2) Jews not capable of work must all go to Belzec, the furthest border station in Kreis Zamosc.
3) Hauptsturmführer Höfle intends to build a large camp, in which the Jews capable of work can by classified according to profession and requisitioned.
4) Piaski will be freed of Polish Jews and become the collection point for Jews coming from the Reich.
...In conclusion he declared, he could receive daily 4-5 transports of 1,000 at the end station of Belzec. These Jews would cross over the border and would never return again to the General Government.


This is the source and the German text:

Türk Vermerk, 17.3.42, in YVA, O-53/79/470-1, printed in: DiM, II, 32-33. (1) Es wäre zweckmässig, die in den Distrikt Lublin kommenden Judentransporte schon auf der Abgangsstation in arbeitsfähige und nichtarbeitsfähige Juden zu teilen. Wenn diese Auseinderhaltung auf der Abgangsstation nicht möglich ist, müsste man evtl. dazu übergehen, den Transport in Lublin nach den obengenannten Gesichtspunkten zu trennen.
2)Hstuf. Höfle ist daran, ein grosses Lager zu bauen, in welchem die einsatzfähigen Juden nach ihren Berufen karteimässig erfasst und von dort angefordert werden können.
3)Piaski wird von polnischen Juden freigemacht und wird Sammelpunkt der aus dem Reich kommenden Juden.
...Abschliessend erklärte er, er könne 4-5 Transporte zu 1000 Juden mit der Zielstation Belzec aufnehmen. Diese Juden kämen über die Grenze und würden nie mehr ins Generalgouvernement zurückkommen.)
Piaksi is a small town southeast of Lublin on the rail line between Lublin and Belzlec.

So who is the source of this quote?
You say
memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942


and Browning says Richard Türk. One of you is not very reliable...

And it's interesting that you omitted the part with "These Jews would cross over the border". Let me guess... code language?

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:43 am)

I think I know where "Germania" did get it, Occam's Razor.
Occam's Razor wrote:....
So who is the source of this quote?

I'd take the educated guess that he's got it from:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... elzec.html
Not really a surprise, isn't it?
They were however honest (or negligent?) enough to include this part:
These Jews would cross the border and never return to the General Government."

They do mention Reuters, but not Tuerk. Unlike other sources that do use this quote. If he hasn't taken it from there, he'll have taken it from someone that took it from there, I guess.
Occam's Razor wrote:....
You say
memo of goverment official Fritz Reuter, March 17, 1942

and Browning says Richard Türk. One of you is not very reliable...

And it's interesting that you omitted the part with "These Jews would cross over the border". Let me guess... code language?
As said, it's due to the source from where he took it. Just that he didn't reference it. And obviously he didn't check it either.

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Postby themind » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:33 pm)

here is a nice interesting chart relating to weight and height

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/gro ... 41l021.pdf

might be of some use :roll:
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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:46 pm)

Uh, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Before we try and figure out how many Jews can fit in a hole, don't you think we might try and find the hole first -- or is that a touch too logical for this day and age?

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Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:59 pm)

In response to the answer from David Irving with which I began this thread, I sent off the following follow-up questions to Mr. Irving:

Dear Mr. Irving,

Thank you very much for your reply.

However, aside from that huge number ("2.4 million") of murdered Jews, everything else you say is extremely vague. Couldn't you be a bit more specific as to how such an enormous crime was carried out? Was it done by simply shooting the victims or with gas chambers using diesel exhaust, or gasoline engine exhaust, or what? Or doesn't any of that really matter to you?

Friedrich Paul Berg



Yesterday morning, I found the following unsigned answer to the above follow-up questions:

From: David Irving <[email protected]> [Add to Address Book]
To: hoaxbuster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Some specifics, PLEASE, for Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor
Date: Apr 14, 2009 11:52 PM

> Or doesn't any of that really matter to you?
>
Not much. I am not a Jew, and not a Nazi.


Such an evasive answer from the author of probably more books about Hitler and WW2 than anyone else is so disappointing. What "real history" is he interested in? Who even cares?

Friedrich Paul Berg
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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:18 am)

Not much. I am not a Jew, and not a Nazi.


Oh, dear!

It can't be hard to understand why there are some serious problems with the industry, when you get replies like this, to a simple and straight forward question.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:16 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
From: David Irving <[email protected]> [Add to Address Book]
To: hoaxbuster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Some specifics, PLEASE, for Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor
Date: Apr 14, 2009 11:52 PM

> Or doesn't any of that really matter to you?
>
Not much. I am not a Jew, and not a Nazi.


I'd advice Mr Irving to look up the word Truth, I'll even give him a hint as to where it's found in the Dictionary, it lies somewhere after the words Academic, Historian & Scholar.

Ka-pow, what a bitch slap!
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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