Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Germania
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 4:48 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Germania » 1 decade 3 months ago (Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:53 pm)

This one doesn’t fit the timeline and so doesn’t make any sense in terms of extermination.


actually it makes perfectly sense.it shows that local officials seriously considered to murder the jews of Warthegau as a local solution of the jewish question. there was no overall extermination policy at this time and it took some time until they were allowed to murder a restricted number of 100,000 of Jews by Heydrich (see http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... se-of.html )


That.s that silly ass Rauff document, the document Rassinier sneered at as “a letter from a lieutenant to a captain”, hardly proof of national policy


I really dont care what Rassinier sneers and besides i quoted the document to show that people in charge of killing operations considered poison a more appropriate way of killing than suffucation, which the document does.

And it refers to gas vans, which are technologically impossible.


in contrary, it is technologically possible to kill with gasoline engine exhaust in gas vans.

User avatar
Zulu
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 9:44 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Zulu » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:31 am)

You allege SS were "human" by discarding industrial inicinerators.

Elie Wisesel tells us that SS threw babies alive in the flames. Must we believe that bullshit?

If so, which reason give you for including an unecessary "gassing step" in the "industrial plan of extermination"?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:26 pm)

Germania, as per usual, attempts to pass along material which this forum has previously demolished. I suggest our readers read for themselves as 'Germania's' thread bare assertions are debunked :

'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

''phoney gas vans / J. McCarthy & 'holocaust' Hist. Proj.'
viewtopic.php?t=73

'The Soviet Origin of the Gas Van Story'
viewtopic.php?t=1558

'How do you respond to this claim?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5611&hilit=germania+zyklon

'Holocaust-HOAX Denial with a Challenge'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5568&hilit=germania+zyklon

Germania cannot show us a single mass grave as alleged, nor can he name a single individual with proof that they were 'gassed', not one.

Search germania at this forum for an informative ride through the things that True Believers claim but can never proove.

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Germania
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 4:48 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Germania » 1 decade 3 months ago (Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:14 am)

Zulu wrote:You allege SS were "human" by discarding industrial inicinerators.

Elie Wisesel tells us that SS threw babies alive in the flames. Must we believe that bullshit?

you have to distinguish between policy by goverment & authorities and individual atrocities.throwing babies alive in the fire was certainly no goverment policy and would have been rejected by most german officials. however,at the auschwitz killing sites there was a concentration of power over jewish's life condemned to death and apparently in this murderous enviroment an abuse of this power by unscrupulous individuals occured and lead to atrocities such as the one you described.it is also possible there a shortage of Zyklon-B happened and that such atrocities were approved at least by some of the camp authorities.

jemand
Member
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby jemand » 1 decade 3 months ago (Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:45 pm)

Germania wrote:...apparently ... it is also possible ... at least by some ...

Weaseling out already? I was hoping for proof of your "millions gassed" fantasy. Better luck next time!

Germania
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 4:48 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Germania » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:27 am)

jemand wrote:
Germania wrote:...apparently ... it is also possible ... at least by some ...

Weaseling out already? I was hoping for proof of your "millions gassed" fantasy. Better luck next time!


just why should i post about "millions gassed" when the issue with zulu was throwing people into fire? indeed,that such atrocity happened is much less certain than homicidal gassing,there is still considerable testimonial evidence though. in contrast,as i show elsewhere homicidal gassing (in this case with gas vans) is proven by documentary evidence, thanks to hannover for calling it to the readers attention:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5568

Thesaint
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: England

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Thesaint » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:22 pm)

Germania wrote:
jemand wrote:
Germania wrote:...apparently ... it is also possible ... at least by some ...

Weaseling out already? I was hoping for proof of your "millions gassed" fantasy. Better luck next time!


just why should i post about "millions gassed" when the issue with zulu was throwing people into fire? indeed,that such atrocity happened is much less certain than homicidal gassing,there is still considerable testimonial evidence though. in contrast,as i show elsewhere homicidal gassing (in this case with gas vans) is proven by documentary evidence, thanks to hannover for calling it to the readers attention:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5568

Your "documentary evidence" did`nt even provide "proof of concept" re:cheaper,easier,suffocation of occupants vs alleged gas injection into already sealed chambers.
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
- Jerusalem Post 6/16/00

KostasL
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:27 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby KostasL » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:48 pm)

Germania wrote:
Zulu wrote:You allege SS were "human" by discarding industrial inicinerators.

Elie Wisesel tells us that SS threw babies alive in the flames. Must we believe that bullshit?

you have to distinguish between policy by goverment & authorities and individual atrocities.throwing babies alive in the fire was certainly no goverment policy and would have been rejected by most german officials. however,at the auschwitz killing sites there was a concentration of power over jewish's life condemned to death and apparently in this murderous enviroment an abuse of this power by unscrupulous individuals occured and lead to atrocities such as the one you described.it is also possible there a shortage of Zyklon-B happened and that such atrocities were approved at least by some of the camp authorities.


Sure, Germania.

We all know that in every war there exist these attrocities commited by individuals.

So should we let our fantasy run wild, not only accepting these lies but also creating our own Nazi attrocities stories ? :oops: You know that millions of people were encouraged to do that, don't you ? :?:
And they did this for much too long and in bizarre fashion. :oops: You also know that, don't you ? :?:

Should we really tolerate the mountains of bullshit we've been fed about WW2 and the holocaust ? :oops:

My point of view is humanitarian and in my eyes there is no humanity, without truth. :(
Last edited by KostasL on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
When you realize that the Holocaust is a LIE, then all of a sudden, ALL your questions, ALL bizarre and strange things, disappear, and ALL things make sense, at last.

jemand
Member
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby jemand » 1 decade 3 months ago (Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:19 am)

Germania wrote:just why should i post about "millions gassed"

Excuse me, that was the allegation you made. Let me refresh your memory:
Germania wrote:the murder with gas and body disposal of Millions of Jews

Now all we need is for you to back up your claim.

nathan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 months ago (Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:54 am)

The SS might be expected to use the cheapest and most efficient methods available.

Yet according to the respected authorities the monumental industrialised crime known as the Holocaust relied upon a series ad hoc on-site improvisations made by middle-ranking officers having no scientific training and working outside the chain of command. After their original flash of untutored genius these inventive colonels and sergeants and visiting civilians tended to learn nothing from their own experience and did nothing to spread or absorb best practice. The mighty German chemical and engineering industries were not consulted.

The passages quoted at the end of this post, culled from some web forum, are apparently taken from Chapter 9 of ed. Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein and Adalbert Rueckerl's book Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas, Yale University Press, New Haven/London: 1993, pp. 205-209:

Nobody observing the chronology of those passages will fail to note that the Nazis must either have started using carbon monoxide at the Reinhardt camps long after Hoess had discovered both from his “inquiries... in other places” and from his underling’s experiments on the Russians that this was a slow and unreliable method – yet more German inefficiency - or else, if Treblinka was one of those “other places,” then the Reinhardt camps must have been functioning at the time of the experiment on the Russians in late 1941. But let us leave time travel to one side. Our subject is Cyanogas. Playwright’s article, though anonymous, seems to me highly persuasive. Cyanogas was an American patent, but apparently a home-made equivalent could be easily knocked up by a skull-collecting professor of anatomy and a failed accountant like Camp Commandant Kramer. When Kramer went on from Natzweiler to Birkenau, however, it seems he did not take Professor Hirt’s knowledge with him. He persisted with a method deliberately designed to release the cyanide gas quite slowly

Kramer’s testimony to the French Military court in Strasbourg in July 1945 is apparently reproduced in chapter 8 of the Kogan-Langbein book. Can anyone get hold of this chapter 8? Since Hirt had killed himself in June 1945 and since Kramer was a British captive it is not clear to me what this French military court was doing. I include below, again snatched from the web, what may have been part of Kramer’s testimony.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently from Kramers testimony at Strasbourg:

“One evening, about nine o-clock, the eighty prisoners arrived. I led about fifteen women to the gas chamber. I told them they were going to be 'disinfected.' With the help of some of the S.S. guards, I got them completely undressed and pushed them into the gas chamber. When I closed the door they began to scream. I put some of the crystals that Hirt had given me into the funnel above the observation window. I would watch everything that was going on inside through it. The women continued to breathe for half a minute and then fell to the floor. I turned on the ventilation, and when I opened the door they were lying dead on the ground, full of shit. I told some of the male S.S. nurses to put the bodies in a truck and take them to the Institute of Anatomy at 5:30 the next morning”.
-------------------------------

Apparently from chapter 9 the Kogon-Langbein book:

“In the summer of 1941 Heinrich Himmler gave SS-Obersturmbannführer Rudolf Hoess the task of organizing the extermination of the Jews sent to Auschwitz. Hoess made inquiries about the methods employed in other places, particularly those for killing Jews and Gypsies by using exhausts from poorly tuned engines. He found this procedure too slow and not sufficiently reliable. During his absence from Auschwitz his deputy, Karl Fritzsch, tried to kill a group of Russian and Polish prisoners by different means. They were shut in an improvised gas chamber into which a certain amount of Zyklon B was introduced. Hoess repeated the experiment and judged the result quite satisfactory. After this, the use of Zyklon B was adopted as the method of mass murder at Auschwitz, and later at Maidanek......

...... One can see why poisoning by hydrocyanic acid—as contained, for example, in Zyklon B—brings on death much more swiftly than does poisoning by carbon monoxide.......

..... A special case is presented by the method used at the Struthof-Natzweiler camp in August 1943, described by the former commandant of the camp, SS-Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer, to a French military court in Strasbourg in July 1945. Kramer's deposition, quoted at length in chapter 8, explains how he gassed several groups of prisoners—eighty-six in all—with the aid of a bottle of "salts" obtained from Professor Hirt of the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Strasbourg. On Professor Hirt's instructions, he added water to the salts at the very last minute and dropped the mixture through an opening in the ceiling of the gas chamber. The method turned out to be quick and effective.

...Kramer's mixture, however, did not produce a new type of poison gas hitherto untested. In his statement Kramer said he believed the salts were "hydrogen cyanide salts. " He was not far wrong in this assumption: the salts were obviously some sort of cyanide. They may well have been calcium cyanide, found in the form of a stable white powder and sometimes used by farmers at the time as a fungicide under the trade name of CYANOGAS. As any chemistry manual will explain, calcium cyanide, Ca(CN)2, reacts with water to form hydrocyanic acid plus calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2: Ca(CN)2 + 2H20 = 2 HCN + Ca(OH)2.

“If the salts provided by Professor Hirt were really calcium cyanide, then the gas Kramer was using was nothing other than hydrocyanic acid, the active ingredient of Zyklon B. But whereas Zyklon B was a commercial product, ready to use, Kramer's was a homemade mixture.

“Thus, from a technical standpoint, there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of Kramer's report. He himself had some notions of chemistry, as is indicated by his reference to "hydrogen cyanide salts," but he did not know, before he used it, what was in Professor Hirt's bottle. That fact makes his testimony all the more impressive.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can anyone tell us the author of this Chapter 9?

Inquisitive
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 11:02 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 3 months ago (Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:55 am)

Germania wrote:
at the auschwitz killing sites there was a concentration of power over jewish's life condemned to death


Which condemned Jewish lives are you referring to at which "killing" sites?
All? some? many? pick one?

Why not look on the bright side? It's as easy to say, "Hey, maybe none were condemned to death" or Auschwitz really WAS a work camp.
Until there is proof, the ideas you pose don't hold water.

nathan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:58 am)

Germania has no obligation within this argument to prove that Auschwitz was a killing centre. He has a right to assume that it was. But to defend that assumption against Playwright – even at risk of sticking to the point - he has to show that for the best part of three years Zyklon-B would have remained the the best available method of releasing the cyanide gas. As far as I can see he has not attempted to do so. He simply argues that they used Zyklon B because they used Zyklon B. (Nor as far as I can find has he shown that cyanide gas would have been a better method than simple suffocation. Has anyone? )

I notice that Germania does not list diesel motors in the genocidal armoury. Was that omission deliberate? In chapter 6 of the latest edition of Hilberg’s book we read that “later, all three camps (Sobibor and Treblinka from the start) were equipped with diesel motors” If diesel fuel has been dropped (as testimony error) from the canonical Holocaust then some credit must surely go to FP Berg. If it has not been dropped than perhaps Germania might tell us where Berg has been refuted.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:57 pm)

Germania has no obligation within this argument to prove that Auschwitz was a killing centre. He has a right to assume that it was.
Not really so. If someone makes a claim in any thread, he can be challenged to prove his claim. Germania can "assume" whatever he wishes, but at this forum dodging is a no-no.

from the guidelines:
No 'dodging'. When questioned or challenged, you must respond or leave the thread.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

ps
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:29 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby ps » 1 decade 3 months ago (Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:20 pm)

Why use the Jews Zyklon B in here liars? Because they are too stupid!

Image

The diagram is calcuated for 15 kg Zyklon B in the big gaschamber in Birkenau.

nathan
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:14 am

Re: Why use Zyklon-B? CYANOGAS is the superior killing tool!

Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 months ago (Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:20 am)

PS would help some of us if he explained his diagram and give his source. A well-known article by Imscher, quoted by Rudolf, does relate temperatures to evaporation times for Zyklon B, but within a standard fumigation chamberr. I did not know that such a relationship had been specified for the "big gas chamber" at Birkenau

Germania says in effect that they used Zyklon B because they chose to do so. I asked him to expand on why they would not have chosen something better. I also asked him whether or not he believed diesel fuel was used at the Reinhard camps. These are specific questions which do not derail the discussion too far from Playwright's topic. It is in effect Playwright who is assuming that Auschwitz was a killing centre. The argument is of the form: assume P; if P is the case then Q would follow; but Q has not followed; therefore P is not the case. Germania can legitimately attempt to argue either that Q would not follow or that Q is indeed the case. That is, he can argue that the SS would for some reason not have used the most efficent methods or that in fact they in fact actually did so.

If we ask Germania to prove in a general way that Birkenau was a killing centre we are condemning him to write a book, thereby creating an impossible digression which enables him him to "dodge" specific on-topic questions.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests