Things changed for me... [MAYBE NOT] Muehlenkamp

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Re: Things have changed for me...

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:23 pm)

Drew

Well I shouldn't have said pits. Wrong word.



Why would that be the wrong word Drew?

That is how Arad described the gigantic graves.

Well, not exactly. His actual phrase was "enormous pits." He also used the phrase "enormous ditches."

How hard would it be to locate and prove the existence of just one "enormous pit / ditch" in each of the camps Drew?



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Re: Things have changed for me...

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:38 pm)

even Mattogno admits human remains for example in Treblinka.


Where Drew? Can you prove that there is so much as one single pit that contains human remains?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... linka.html
On page 89 and following of the screed headed "Treblinka Extermination Camp or Transit Camp", which is co-authored by Mattogno and his fellow “Revisionist” guru Jürgen Graf and can be downloaded online, one reads the following:

Even the investigations performed by Lukaszkiewicz proved to be a complete failure in terms of this central question. He arranged excavation at a quite definite spot in the camp where, according to the witness S. Rajzman, a mass grave was located, but discovered nothing of the kind. He had trenches dug, 10-15 m long and 1.5 m deep, at the places where, according to witnesses, the two alleged buildings for gassing had stood, yet merely encountered "undisturbed layers of earth." To be sure, he did find skulls, but without wounds from shooting. All the evidence examined by him (coins, documents, rags, containers, remnants of various objects) show merely that there was a camp at that place, and the human remains as well as the ashes prove only that bodies were buried or cremated in the camp. Nothing produced even the trace of evidence for a mass murder, to say nothing of such a crime committed against several hundred thousandpeople.


Now let’s have a look at the reports of those supposedly failed investigations, which Mattogno did us the favor to have translated from Polish and transcribed on pages 84 ff of his book:

For the purpose of performing an official investigation of the scene of the crime, Judge Lukaszkiewicz had gone to Treblinka. As he later explained, he acted206 "[…] at the request of the State Prosecutor of the District Court in Siedlce of September 24, 1945, further induced by a letter of September 18, 1945, of the Main Commission for the Investigation of the German Murders in Poland."
After bidding farewell to the visitors, Lukaszkiewicz set to work with a group of workers. Between November 9 and 13, he undertook a thorough examination of the grounds as well as a series of excavations. Afterwards he composed an official protocol, which we reproduce in full in view of its significance:207
"Protocol of the tasks performed on the grounds of the death camp Treblinka, which forms the object of the judicial examination.
From November 9 to 13, 1945, the examining magistrate of Siedlce, Z. Łukaszkiewicz, together with the State Attorney for the District Court of Siedlce, J. Maciejewski, performed the following tasks on the camp grounds:
November 9, 1945
Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork. The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called ‘camp hospital’ had stood and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist.
Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and Czech coins as well as broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which had not been reached previously. There were no human remains found.
November 10, 1945
The work was continued, with 36 workers assigned who had been commandeered for roadwork. At a depth of 6 meters begins a layer which has never before been uncovered by anyone. It consists partly of all sorts of kitchen utensils and different kinds of household objects; there are also pieces of clothing. At a depth of 7 meters, we reached the floor of the pit – a layer of yellow sand which is not mixed with gravel. By means of expansion of the excavation we succeeded in determining the shape of the pit. It has sloping walls, and the bottom measures about 1.5 meters [sic!]. The pit was presumably excavated with an excavator. During the course of the excavations, numerous more or less badly damaged Polish documents were discovered, further a badly damaged personal identity card of a German Jew, as well as several more coins: Polish, German, Russian, Belgian, and even American. After we had made certain that this pit, filled with broken pieces of the containers mentioned, ran in a north-south direction on the grounds of the camp area – 2 meters more [in a northerly direction] had been excavated – the workers started work at this location.
November 11, 1945
A series of test excavations were performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug. Undisturbed layers of earth were uncovered by this.
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.
November 13, 1945
With the assistance of 30 workers employed for roadwork, the opening of a pit was begun – a site where refuse was deposited in the northeastern section of the camp. In this location, as the workers from the nearby hamlets explained, a very large number of documents were found up till now. Work was begun at this location where the people [of that area] had dug a three-meter-deep pit in a search for gold. During the course of the digging, broken pieces of all sorts of kitchen containers as well as a large number of rags were continually found. Aside from the coins discovered so far, Greek, Slovakian, and French ones were found, as well as documents in Hebrew and Polish and remnants of a Soviet passport. At a depth of 5 meters the work was stopped due to the steadily worsening weather conditions.
The Examining Judge The State Attorney
Lukaszkiewicz Maciejewski
Decision:
The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the works carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts to stop the work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka.
The Examining Judge
Lukaszkiewicz."
On December 29, 1945, after the conclusion of his preliminary investigations, Lukaszkiewicz issued a protocol with 14 paragraphs, which – as already mentioned – was presented by the Soviets at the Nuremberg Trial as Document USSR-344. In the third paragraph, which bears the title "Current condition of the camp terrain", it says the following:209
"With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp’s domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum – enamel – glass and porcelain dishes – kitchen utensils – hand luggage – rucksacks – pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."
Lukaszkiewicz summarized the investigations carried out a month earlier at that location as follows:210
"During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The ground of the camp was ploughed and sown. Ukrainians were settled there, who fled before the arrival of the Red Army (witnesses Kucharek and Lopuszyński)."

The passages I bolded in the above quote make me wonder if Mattogno did not, to put it politely, forget some very important results of these investigations when proclaiming them to have been a failure. For the Polish investigators found an area of ca. 2 ha = 20,000 square meters covered by "a mixture of ashes and sand", the mixture containing "countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition".

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Re: Things have changed for me...

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:40 pm)

Drew

Now let’s have a look at the reports



No Drew, let's have a look at the graves.

Can you prove that there exists one single grave that contains human remains at Belzec Drew?

If so, let's see it.

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Re: Things have changed for me...

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:43 pm)

Drew

"Things have changed for me... The exterminationists may have got us on the Reinhardt "transit" camps"


Well then Drew, if that's what you really think, I have a little challenge for you.


There's supposed to be 33 mass graves at Belzec, 10 at Sobibor, 6 at Treblinka and 5 at Chelmno which, in total, allegedly contain the remains of over 2 million jews.

So here's my challenge to you Drew.

Prove to us that just one grave at each of these sites actually exists, then tell us how much human remains exist in each of your chosen grave, then prove it.

Now, if "The exterminationists have got us on the Reinhardt transit camps," this challenge should be done in no time.

I can't wait to see your proof Drew.

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Re: Things have changed for me...

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:48 pm)

I'm not trying to say Muehlenkamp has proven anything. My goal is to merely understand his posts. As for your question where are these pits to begin with, isn't that just another way of saying mass graves? If you say yes, then I bring it back to Kola's report and how his core samples showed where human remains were which jived with Bau-Reder. As my old bolded and red text showed earlier, when more than two people start agreeing on something, then a lawyer in a court of law would certainly start to think that prima face, there may be a case. But only prima face of course.

However it all comes back to why wasn't Kola's core samples documented with photo or video or scientific analysis to prove there were actually human remains. Since it wasn't, I don't see why Muehlenkamp can make the excuse that archaeologists aren't required to do that and Kola wasn't since apparently, they weren't there to find proof of an extermination, only to figure out where mass graves where so that digging to build a memorial wouldn't harm any corpses or remains. However Muelenkamp refused to accept that by documenting where bodies were, it was bound to happen that said evidence would be used by extermination theorists to boost their case. The proof is that they cite Kola at all. They for some reason don't want to accept that Kola, whatever his team's motivation seemed to help the exterminationist's view of things since they like to refer to Kola all the time. You can't complain, "Oh Kola never meant to document a holocaust. They even stopped drilling in some spots." You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

I was going over the old VNN thread and I believe I saw something to the effect of Muehlenkamp volunteering to go to Sobibor and ask to do scientific tests on mounds of ash to prove they are human remains or something. Funny how this was never done at Belzec. It must be pissing him off. Which is why he came at me with, "They weren't there to document a holocaust, only to find out where it was okay to dig to build a memorial. So you can't expect them to provide proof of something they weren't there to get proof of." Sorry but since not everyone does archaeology to build memorials around bodies, archaeologists typically photograph and videotape their evidence and also do lab tests to prove that whatever ash or remains they find are in fact of human bodies.

I would like to thank you for throwing that name Greg Gerdes out there. I googled some stuff and boy this guy is amazing. I guess that's part of why I started this thread. To let people know where I was on Belzec a month later. That way they could respond with some further resources. Which are much appreciated. I think they will only serve to show Muehlenkamp up. In fact, this afternoon has only shown me that Muehlenkamp was in fact spanked hard by Gerdes. So all I can say is thanks for your time and further reading material. It was what I was hoping to receive.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:53 pm)

Drew

then I bring it back to Kola's report and how his core samples showed where human remains


His report didn't "show" any human remains.

All he did was make unsubstantiated claims.

Backed up by nothing.


Drew

However it all comes back to why wasn't Kola's core samples documented with photo or video or scientific analysis to prove there were actually human remains.


Because there were no actual human remains.

Just fraudulent claims to the effect. (That Mattogno graciously gives him credit for. Mattogno’s biggest fault is that he’s too nice of a guy to come right out and call Kola a fraud, which he most certainly is.)

However, O'Neil claims to have videos of the "excavations" at Belzec.

But he refuses to release them.

Why?


Drew

Kola never meant to document a holocaust



But the team from Hartford did (at Sobibor).

Why do they refuse to release the evidence of what they found?

Because they found no evidence.


We have O'Neil's videos for Belzec and the Hartford teams GPR results (and other tests) for Sobibor, and neither has been released.

Go figure.

Drew

thanks for your time and further reading material


You’re welcome.


Now I ask you one more time Drew

Can you prove that there exists in each of the camps so much as one grave that contains human remains?

Please answer the question.

It's a yes or no question, so there is no reason in the world why you can't answer it.

Either you can or you can't.

If you can, then the answer is yes.

If you can't, then the answer is no.

Is the answer yes or no Drew?

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:03 pm)

I can't. And I doubt others can.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:41 pm)

I just noticed something in that VNN thread.
http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=24
Why is it that those articles quoting people who saw teeth don't count? Why would these people lie? Even if they did tell the truth, how does the mere presence of teeth prove there was gas engines used to kill them at Treblinka? If as Muehlenkamp would say that many of these Jews were on the brink of starving to death, couldn't it be that some of them just starved to death and died in the camp?

Even up to page three
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=3
Gerdes keeps using small summaries instead of directly answering Muehlenkamp as to why those people would lie about seeing teeth? Muehlenkamp has asked a fair reasonable question that is being ignored so far in this topic. Muehlenkamp also states the following on page three.

Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Gerdes howling about "tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings" obviously presumes that these objects, easy to identify and pick up after each shooting, were just left lying around by his SS-heroes."

Q - Oh that's a good one Roberta. That's going into the archives. Please do explain why the SS picked up their brass and please do explain how they picked up their spent bullets.

A - "The spent cartridges they could just pick off the ground."

Q - Please explain how they recovered the bullets that passed through the bodies they shot and please explain how they recovered the bullets that stayed within the bodies they shot?

A - "Ever heard of bullet-catchers and sand bags, smart-ass?"


Gerdes conveniently left out the following part of my Topix post # 550 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T1V7 ... C/p27#c550

And assuming they had no bullet-catchers or sand bags at the "Lazarett", where the killing was done by shooting, the bullets would have landed in the trash inside the pit that the bodies fell into, and been burned together with the bodies and the trash at regular intervals. Lead melts easily, I'm told.


Or is there any other reason for your having left out that part, Gerdes?

Bullets are different from casings or cartridges as Gerdes says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bullet.svg

Were any of the four main parts of a bullet found in Treblinka? Or is Muehlenkamp telling us that witness testimony (whoever they are) is reliable since many agree and that the nazis ended up burning a lot of the bullets since lead melts easily. But what about the casings or cartridges as they are also called?

Originally Posted by Gerdes
So Roberta, before we go on, can you show us a photo of the German "bullet-catchers" that were employed at Treblinka?


After you have provided a reason compatible with the evidence to the Treblinka killings why such a photograph should necessarily have been taken, assuming that they had bullet-catchers at the "Lazarett", I might give it a try.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=45

So evidence is not forthcoming. In other words, we are to accept an argument from ignorance from Muehlenkamp. Oh wait, no. We have witness testimony. I'm sorry but haven't witnesses been caught engaging in scientific fraud before as illustrated in
The Chemical & Toxicological Impossibility Of The Auschwitz Gas Chamber Legend
http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_a ... hwitz.html

And what of these witnesses that have had problems with their testimony as well?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=32711#p32711

And what of what atheist Joseph Burg said under oath at Zundel's Canadian trial? Knowing what we know about Kol Nidre and tractates Nedarim 23 and Nedarim 1 shown by Michael Hoffman to be escape clauses used by Jews to permit them to lie to Gentiles, and how Burg said Jews in these trials needed to take an oath before a rabbi since to them oaths to gentiles weren't binding, what else are we to expect in terms of honesty?

These are important things to consider but again, what about the teeth? Why are the people quoted in these articles liars?
http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=24
On the other hand, if the thiefs can be photographed that are alleged to have all this stolen teeth and gold in their pockets, where is the photographs of that merchandise itself? If you can photograph the perp, why not photograph the fruits of his crime? Can Muehlenkamp answer that?
Last edited by Drew J on Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:51 pm)

Could Drew J. please correct the links he gave in his initial post so that they work, somehow.


http:// r o d o h f o r u m . y u k u .com/topic/7282/t/Revisionist-Team-Announcement.html

Muehlenkamp has expanded his 2009 rejoinder to Mattogno.
http:// h o l o c a u s t c o n t r o v e r s i e s .blogspot.com/2009/07/belzec-mass-graves-and-archaeology-my_2802.html

He has apparently taken issue with Mattogno on Treblinka back in 2006.
http:// h o l o c a u s t c o n t r o v e r s i e s .blogspot.com/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

And also provided some interesting photos regarding nazi atrocities.
http:// h o l o c a u s t c o n t r o v e r s i e s .blogspot.com/2009/03/photographic-documentation-of-nazi.html



Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:03 pm)

I had to break apart the rodoh link because last time I had it put together, the url was automatically changed to not read rodoh but rather aliceinwonderland and that url lead to nowhere. I wasn't sure if those similar tactics would be employed against Muehlenkamp's blog or not. Since they are not, I will fix them.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:03 pm)

Drew

Even if they did tell the truth, how does the mere presence of teeth...



What teeth Drew?

Can you show my one single tooth that has been found at Belzec? Chelmno? Sobibor? Treblinka?


Drew

since lead melts easily



What bullets Drew?

Can you show my one single bullet that has been found at Belzec? Chelmno? Sobibor? Treblinka?

Melted? You mean easily melted in the alleged physically impossible "cremation" scenario?

And what happens to melted lead Drew?

Does it magically disappear? Or does it liquefy and then reharden after cooling?

Drew

But what about the casings or cartridges as they are also called?


What casings or cartridges Drew?

Can you show my one single casing or cartridge that has been found at Belzec? Chelmno? Sobibor? Treblinka?

Drew

Can Muehlenkamp answer that?


Muehlenkamp can't answer squat.

Did you see the 101 questions that he was asked about Sobibor?

He was zero for 101.

What does that tell you Drew?

Drew

I can't. And I doubt others can. (Prove that there exists in each of the camps so much as one grave that contains human remains.)



So Muehlenkamp's "interesting replies" weren't that interesting.


BTW Drew, in any of Muehlenkamp's "interesting replies," did he ever prove his insane claim that there were "bullet catchers" in Treblinka's huge pits?

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:06 pm)

Sorry, double post

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:12 pm)

Drew

Why is it that those articles quoting people who saw teeth don't count?



For the same reason that those articles quoting people who see Evlis don't count.


65 million teeth total at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka Drew.

Can you show me one?


Drew

Why would these people lie?



Ever heard of the talmud Drew?


"I was brought up with lies all the time... that's how you got along... I have lied my entire life..." -- Monica Lewinsky, on one of Linda Tripp's tapes.

It's a jewish thing Drew.

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:22 pm)

Drew

Muehlenkamp has asked a fair reasonable question (about teeth)



Was Muehlenkamp able to show Mr. Gerdes a tooth from Treblinka Drew?

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Re: Things have changed for me... [OR MAYBE NOT]

Postby Pepper » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:53 pm)

Drew

Gerdes keeps using small summaries instead of directly answering Muehlenkamp



I found this on the vnn site Drew


Gerdes:

Let's remind everyone that even the retarded rabbi admits that there would be millions and millions of teeth (even lying around above ground) at the alleged "pure extermination centers." From his topix posts:

"I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that all teeth were reduced to tooth meal, on the contrary... I provided two sources expressly mentioning teeth on the grounds of Treblinka... there’s no reason to assume that he was wrong about the above-mentioned teeth... Any particular reason why this should not be enough to conclude that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site? My reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains means they didn’t crush all of them, as I have pointed out over and over again, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh!... A claim which I never made - that all teeth were crushed... Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of teeth at Treblinka led to the obliteration of all of these teeth. In the mass graves, according to Kola, "there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay". These remains may well include teeth, lots of them."


And this was in the same post

Remember what your man O'Neil said retardo:

"It does not matter how big the crime is as such - it could have been 800,000 people or one person - the detection, or forensic investigation, is exactly the same as long as the correct procedures are adopted... Not only did they [the Nazi's] dig up all the bodies, burnt them and ground the bones up, but... they have been intact there for the last 60 odd years," he said.

Yet the loser can't locate / prove the existence of so much as one single grave that contains so much as one single tooth or bone fragment at Sobibor or Treblinka.

NOT ONE!



It seems Gerdes was asking Muehlenkamp to prove his insane claims about there being millions and millions of teeth lying around, but Muehlenkamp ignored his fair and reasonable request. Out of 35 million teeth, Muehlenkamp wasn't able to prove the existence of one.

Not one Drew.

BTW Drew, do you agree with Robin O'Neil abuot how easy it would be to, using correct forensic procedures, locate the alleged mass graves?


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