The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 6 months ago (Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:21 pm)

From what I understand Muehlenkamp is a German name and thus Roberto himself is probably located in Germany where the Demjanjuk trial is going to be. If he's going to be an expert witness, then the defense team needs to get in touch with Jim Trafficant. His work saved Demjanjuk the first time. He can do it again.

Pepper
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:47 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Pepper » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:18 pm)

The burning of bodies in open mass graves leaves behind bones and teeth.



Yes, that would mean close to 2 million pounds of bone and 8 million teeth.

Yet not one pound of bones has ever been located, nor so much as one single tooth.

Not one!

labview1958
Member
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:31 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby labview1958 » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:59 pm)

Demjanjuk’s deportation to Germany from the United States was illegal, and the State of Germany does not have any legal right to try an Ukrainian citizen for alleged crimes against Jews in Poland.


It is obvious.

labview1958
Member
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:31 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby labview1958 » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:07 am)

Prosecutors say he was stationed for six months at Sobibor, where he helped other guards herd people off railway carriages, force them to strip naked and enter a four-by-four meter gas chamber. Engine exhaust fumes were pumped in, causing a lethal mix of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide that killed after 20 to 30 minutes.


Finally some solid proof of the gas chamber. Holocaust deniers cannot deny the existence of gas chambers.

User avatar
jnovitz
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:40 pm

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:37 am)

The first thing to say is it smacks of utter hypocrisy for Germany to be trying a former Soviet POW, a group that they left in utter destitution and starvation in the Stalags until cannabalism broke out and then offered the minority nationalities the chance of decent rations if they joined a militia - militia that was involved in all kinds of duties.
It should be worth noting that Germany promised Demjanjuk (and every Ukrainian) a grant of land and social security after the war, instead he is catatonic in a court for following German orders.

Having said that, and this depends a little bit on Demjanjuk's mental state at the moment, which might not be fantastic - I dont have total sympathy for him either.

Remember, there is not a chance in hell he will be convicted of anything, given there is not a single eyewitness, or interrogation record that implicates him in anything (except possibly one testimony from the USSR). In the past simply being present at a camp has not been enough for conviction. The prosecutors know this and this is simply grandstanding for the german public and international community.

Given that Demjanjuk stands no risk of being convicted and was almost certainly at Sobibor (given in put it down in an immigration application), its a shame that he will not take this opportunity to put forward an alternative narrative - if there was one.

It is certainly strange that if Sobibor camp was a death camp gassing thousands of Jews and Demjanjuk was there, that he should so blithely concede that point on an immigration form. Couldnt he have said Cholm or Wlodawa?

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:53 pm)

Look at the words below of Efraim Zuroff. Apparently John Demjanjuk is faking his condition and is a really good actor. - Drew J


John Demjanjuk begins Nazi war crimes trial on a stretcher

John Demjanjuk, the 89-year-old accused of being a Nazi death camp guard, began his war crimes trial in Munich on a stretcher.

By Allan Hall in Munich
Published: 5:51PM GMT 30 Nov 2009

Image


Demjanjuk is accused of being a callous thug who helped to herd tens of thousands of Jews to their deaths in the Sobibor concentration camp.

But on Monday in a Munich courtroom he Demjanjuk appeared a pathetic figure. On the opening day of what is likely to be Germany's last major Nazi war crimes trial, the 89-year-old was at one point hauled in on a stretcher, apparently too frail and too sick with Leukaemia to even respond to the judge's most basic questions.

Earlier there were boos from the public gallery as Demjanjuk, who is accused of helping to kill 27,900 people at the Sobibor death camp in occupied Poland, entered the court for the morning session by wheelchair. He was taken out apparently groaning in pain at its conclusion having failed to utter a coherent word.

In the afternoon he was stretchered in by medics, covered in a white blanket from head-to-toe. Just as medical experts were telling the court he was fit to be tried, Demjanjuk forced a halt to proceedings when he appeared to gasp for breath, began writhing about and waving his arms and complained about a headache.

Efraim Zuroff, head of the Nazi-hunting Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem which placed Demjanjuk at the top of its most-wanted list, dismissed Demjanjuk's behaviour as cynical theatrics.

"It's a pathetic attempt to appear more crippled than he is. He belongs in Hollywood," he said.

Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk, who was extradited from the United States in May, maintains he was forced to work in Nazi camps after being taken prisoner in 1942 while fighting for the Red Army, but denies being at Sobibor.

However German prosecutors say they have an SS identity card bearing his name and transfer orders and they can show he was active at Sobibor from March to September 1943. In their 83-page indictment they state Demjanjuk, who was armed and was at liberty to leave the camp, could have absconded if he had wanted to, but chose to stay "and was involved with the extermination process at every step".

Those present on Monday among the 30 plaintiffs, who include relatives of the 250,000 people who were slaughtered in total at Sobibor, recoiled in horror as Demjanjuk's lawyer tried to paint him as a victim. Ulrich Busch said press-ganged guards "were just like Jews forced to work in the gas chambers - either they did their jobs or were murdered".

He hit out at what he called "moral and legal double standards" of bringing Demjanjuk to trial while German SS members who were at Sobibor were acquitted, and said the Munich court had no jurisdiction to try his client.

But Cornelius Nestle, acting for the relatives, said it was "disgusting" to compare the "press-ganged" camp guards to their victims.

"They had better food, better conditions, they could leave the camps when they wanted and they enriched themselves with loot taken from their victims. None of this applied to the Jews," he said.

Robert Cohen, 83, whose parents and brother died at Sobibor, said: "If he was there, he killed more than 100 people per day - per day! That would be the worst crime ever."

There are no living witnesses, so prosecutors will rely heavily on written testimony.

Demjanjuk was sentenced to death in Israel in 1988 for being the sadistic Nazi death camp guard "Ivan the Terrible" but the conviction was overturned when Israel recognised it had convicted the wrong man.

Judge Ralph Alt has decided that Demjanjuk will face a maximum of four hours in court a day.

If found guilty, he would receive a 15-year sentence. The case continues.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tcher.html

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:58 pm)

Image
Efraim Zuroff

This is what that lying sack of shit looks like. The idiot who says John Demjanjuk is faking it. Hey asshole, let's see you go on television and debate Jim Traficant on who Ivan the Terrible really is. I bet dollars to donuts he beats you in the debate so bad, you get up and scream in his face that he's a Jew hater because you can't handle being proven wrong. An Israeli court let Demjanjuk go on Traficant's evidence. The behavior of these psychotic Jews behind this man's crucifixion is pathetic and smacks of moral and intellectual cowardice. They couldn't convict him in Israel after Traficant did some work exposing who Ivan the Terrible really was and after Traficant exposed how American prosecutors suborned perjury. Zionism and psychotic Talmudic Jewish settlers who are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians are being exposed on the internet and they need to turn up the propaganda. They are losing the information war and they are scared shitless. Especially after the British press showed how Simon Wiesenthal is a huge liar. - Drew J




DEMJANJUK FIGHTS FOR LIFE

Former Rep. Jim Traficant is again going to bat for an Ohio workman accused of being a Nazi camp guard



By Jim Traficant

John Demjanjuk is a retired auto worker from Cleveland. He was born in Ukraine, served in World War II as a Russian soldier, was captured and held as a prisoner of war. Demjanjuk’s captors were soldiers of the German army. Today, as you read this column, Demjanjuk is standing trial for his very life once again. He is facing another Nazi war crimes indictment.

Think about the dynamics of this dilemma for John Demjanjuk. He’s being tried in Germany, by the very country who captured him. They say he was a Nazi war criminal. I don’t know about you, but on its surface it just doesn’t add up.

Demjanjuk is not a war criminal and certainly was never a Nazi. I can remember my first acknowledgment of the “Demjanjuk” ordeal. It seems like yesterday. I was in my Washington, D.C. office in the old Cannon Building in the late ‘80s. One of my staffers came into my office in a sort of cloak-and-dagger mode stating that the “son of convicted Nazi mass murderer ‘Ivan the Terrible’ is in the reception room, and we told him you are not here.” I then inquired of his purpose to meet with me, since I was not his congressman. I was then informed that young John Demjanjuk Jr. told them that he has “been to every office in the House and Senate, and no one would even speak with him because the matter was too sensitive.”

John Demjanjuk Jr. further stated that “they did not want to involve Jim Traficant” because they said that they “knew the government hated him, but he’s our last resort for any help.”

My staffer said, “Do not meet with him; you’ll be ostracized, destroyed, ruined. Let him go back to his own congressman and the two senators of Ohio.”

My staff further advised that I was probably already targeted by the powerful Israeli lobby, since I was an opponent of foreign aid, and certainly my involvement with John Demjanjuk would guarantee that American Israeli Public Affairs Committee [AIPAC] would not quit till I was removed from Congress.



I went to the door so I could overhear the conversation between John Demjanjuk Jr. and my staff. I could feel the pain in his voice. John Demjanjuk Jr. finally stated: “My dad’s not asking to meet with anyone. I’m asking, and I’ve never even had a parking ticket. What kind of government is this, that I can’t even talk to my elected officials about my family’s grave concerns?”

I then ordered my staff to bring John Demjanjuk Jr. and his brother-in-law Ed Nishnic into my office. My staff told me this decision would destroy my
career in Congress. I met John Demjanjuk Jr. and Ed Nishnic and offered them a seat to discuss their problems.

John Demjanjuk Jr. is a fine young man, a son any father would be proud of. His demeanor was that of a troubled and worried young man. He was accompanied by his brother-in-law Ed Nishnic and basically let Ed Nishnic explain their plight.

Ed Nishnic is also a remarkable man. Like John Demjanjuk Jr. he’s very intelligent and was very determined to prove the innocence of his father-in-law. I stated emphatically, that “I’ve decided to meet with you for one reason and one reason only: No American should ever be turned away when seeking help from our government.” I then said, “Your dad has been convicted of mass murder, the extermination of one million Jewish prisoners. He has been sentenced to death. I want you to know up front, that if he is really guilty I could personally pull the switch at his execution.”

I then told them I would hear their concerns. (Be advised that the mainstream media wrote that “Jim Traficant supports Nazi mass murderer” as soon as word spread that I had met with the “Demjanjuk” family.)

Nishnic handed me two report summaries of OSI investigators (Office of Special Investigations, the group within the Justice Department created by Congress to apprehend and prosecute Nazi war criminals). They had interrogated one Otto Horn in Berlin, Germany. Horn was a former SS Nazi guard who had assisted “Ivan Grozny” (Ivan the Terrible), at the Treblinka, Poland concentration camps.

These two reports were originals, not copies, and were signed by agents Garand and Daugherty, and were witnessed by prosecutor Moscovitz, who handled the denaturalization trial of John Demjanjuk in Cleveland. The reports were stamped as received by the Justice Department and signed by unit chief Eli Rosenbaum.

I read the documents very carefully without input from John Demjanjuk Jr. or Ed Nishnic. I could not believe my eyes. I could not believe what I was reading. The Justice Department had committed a great crime. Moscovitz, Garand and Daugherty suborned the perjury of Otto Horn in order to convict an American citizen wrongfully—an American now denaturalized, stripped of his citizenship and waiting to be executed. (The authenticity of these two documents cannot be denied.)

At trial, Horn stated that “John Demjanjuk was Ivan Grozny.” But in these two early reports, two years before the trial, Horn could not identify Demjanjuk from the photographs displayed before him.

I had a problem. A big problem. I knew without a doubt that John Demjanjuk was not Ivan the Terrible. John Demjanjuk was in fact another victim, soon to be known as one of the most vicious and infamous mass murderers in world history. John Demjanjuk was awaiting execution as the infamous Ivan of Treblinka, Ivan the Terrible.

I would be defamed and ostracized because I would be compelled to prove the innocence of John Demjanjuk on the strength of these two Justice Department documents. John Demjanjuk was innocent—convicted of mass murder, sentenced to death and awaiting execution—and no one seemed to care.

I thought, what has happened to our great country that it could produce this type of brutal crime against this American and his family?

I realized I had a difficult task ahead, but with the help of John Demjanjuk Jr. and Ed Nishnic, I believed we could prove John Demjanjuk’s innocence. It was imperative to do so. I had these two powerful documents to start with.

Otto Horn’s testimony at the Cleveland denaturalization trial (via videotape) was very direct. Horn had been shown a series of photographs when interrogated in Berlin.

Moscovitz spread eight photos of Caucasian males in uniform, all in their early 20’s. Horn testified that he identified John Demjanjuk immediately. Moscovitz then spread eight more photos of Caucasian soldiers in uniform, but now in their 40’s. Horn again testified that he identified John Demjanjuk, even as an older man, because he knew him so well. Horn’s testimony stripped John Demjanjuk of his citizenship, and he was sent to Israel to stand trial as Ivan the Terrible.

Now, back to the two reports of Horn’s interrogation in Berlin two years earlier. Garand and Daugherty wrote in their reports immediately after their interview with Horn: “We spread eight photos of Caucasian men in uniform, all in their early 20’s. Horn studied the photos at length and stated that ‘one man looks familiar’ [not John Demjanjuk] but FAILED to identify anyone.”

The report goes on:

“We then gathered the eight photos and put them in a stack with John Demjanjuk’s on top. We then spread eight more photos of older men in uniform with John Demjanjuk’s photo among them. Horn studied these photos at length, and looking at the John Demjanjuk photo on top of the stack, then back to John Demjanjuk’s photo in the older soldiers spread, said that ‘this is the same man’ but FAILED again to identify John Demjanjuk as Ivan.”

Be advised that Horn lied through his teeth, and U.S. prosecutor Moscovitz allowed it. Horn later testified at the Israeli trial that he positively identified John Demjanjuk from the photo spreads. When the defense team crossed-examined Horn, they asked if he could see the first photo spread when he was examining the second set. Horn testified:

“They put the first set of photographs in an envelope and removed them from my view.” Horn lied again. John Demjanjuk was convicted, and sentenced to death.

I immediately began my own investigation by utilizing a number of FOIA [Freedom of Information Act] requests on John Demjanjuk. The government response was “classified”; thus I got nothing. At this point I conferred with John Demjanjuk Jr. and Nishnic to evaluate what options were available. We came up with a plan.

We decided to research any and all legal activity that involved the Treblinka camp. BINGO. We discovered that a Ukrainian-American from Chicago, by the name of Feodor Federenko, had been tried for war crimes at Treblinka. Federenko was acquitted. He then traveled to his homeland to visit his family, but was arrested by the Soviet KGB, was tried again in Russia, was convicted and executed. [No doubt our government arranged his demise].

I immediately sent out a new FOIA request, this time on Federenko. Most agencies threw my FOIAs in the wastebasket, but the State Department sent me two telegrams:

The first was from one of our OSI agents in Europe seeking information about Treblinka. The second was the response from the State Department listing the names of four men who had made statements about Treblinka. At the bottom of this was the following; “if you need further help, be advised we have another 100 pages in the file.”

I acted immediately. I phoned the State Department and reached a Mrs. Poindexter, an honest, competent government worker. I asked her to send me those 100 pages, citing the fact that Federenko was deceased and his case was not “classified.” Mrs. Poindexter complied.

Those 100 pages saved the life of John Demjanjuk. They contained the testimony of 17 witnesses about Treblinka.

All 17 identified “Ivan”:

1. He was taller than John Demjanjuk;

2. He had dark hair, not blond like John Demjanjuk;

3. He was nine years older than John Demjanjuk;

4. He had a long scar on his neck.

There was also a photo of two SS Nazi guards who had been identified by one of the witnesses, who said: “The short guard with pistol is Tkachuk. The tall guard is the man the Jewish prisoners feared the most, ‘Ivan Grozny’—IVAN MARCHENKO.”

All 17 witnesses identified a man named Ivan Marchenko as “Ivan the Terrible.”

I asked Congress for a hearing. Congress refused, the case was “too sensitive.” The federal courts would not accept my evidence. I took my evidence to the floor of Congress. I said John Demjanjuk was not “Ivan the Terrible.” A man named Ivan Marchenko was the real “Ivan.”

That night, the U.S. Justice Department issued a statement that “there were two Ivans.”

The next day I released the photo of Marchenko. The Justice Department was silent.

I then forwarded all my evidence to John Demjanjuk’s defense team in Israel, who then submitted it in to the Israeli Supreme Court.

I flew to Israel with John Demjanjuk Jr. and Ed Nishnic, at my own expense. I did a live interview with Bryant Gumbel on the Today show. I stated that if Israel executed John Demjanjuk that Israel will lose $20 billion a year from U.S. taxpayers. Gumbel said that “Israel only gets $3 billion a year.” I countered, “That’s just the foreign aid bill, Bryant. Israel gets military aid, loans, loans converted to grants, and trade compacts and other money. I say that Israel gets $20,000 for every man, woman and child from America every year.”

The interview was over.

I was phoned the following night and was told that John Demjanjuk would be released and delivered to me at the Tel Aviv Airport. We took him home.

I called a press conference for New York. While the press gathered, I ducked out with John Demjanjuk on a small plane. When approaching Cleveland, I directed the pilot to seek a landing pattern at the airport, then directed the flight to a small airstrip near Independence, Ohio, thus eluding the press.

John Demjanjuk went to a safehouse, He was home. I flew toWashington.The next day the Sixth Circuit Court in Cincinnati, Ohio issued the following statement; “A TRAGIC BUT HONEST MISTAKE BY OUR GOVERNMENT.”

That was no mistake. Moscovitz, Garand and Daugherty should have been sent to prison. I said then, “Since when did sensitivity waive our Bill
of Rights?” When we allow the rights of one American to be violated, we endanger the rights of all Americans.

Germany should send John Demjanjuk home. How, in God’s name, can Germany accept any evidence from the U.S. Justice Department who suborned perjury in the first trial, withheld evidence, obstructed justice, and violated John Demjanjuk’s civil rights?

SHAME ON GERMANY AND SHAME ON THE U.S.A. What has happened to our great country?

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:02 pm)

Roberto Muehlenkamp has a somewhat recent update on the case. Interesting how he admits that millions weren't killed at Majdanek.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more

When Demjanjuk came back in the news again once it was revealed he would be taken to Germany (he's already there now of course), Muehlenkamp was desperately trying to claim there were authentic ID cards of Demjanjuk. :lol: He also made passing mention of nine other documents proving supposedly how Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible. Of course he never furnished any of them.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-i.html
I also found that Muehlenkamp never seemed to want to deal with what Traficant revealed about those American attorneys suborning perjury. Then again, he is kind of full of shit.
Doc. no. 8. A very ironic item in the list - Demjanyuk's own "Application for Assistance", which he submitted in March of 1948 to the Preparatory Commission of the International Refugee Organization. While he supplied the false information about his residence throughout the war, he noted that from April 1937 to January 1943 he was a driver in "Sobibor, Chelm, Poland". Sobibor was not a well-known name at that time, and the fact that Demjanyuk himself wrote it down (even while giving the wrong dates and lying about being a driver there) is highly incriminating.

Doc. no. 9. Finally, in his application for an American visa on December 27, 1951, Demjanyuk wrote that from 1936 to 1943 he resided in Sobibor, Poland.

Well then I guess that would mean that the German who said he served with Demjanjuk in a German camp is a liar. I guess the Zionists get to pick and choose what the facts are whenever they like.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/index.ssf ... _case.html

This guy is obviously being leaned on to say what he is saying.
Nagorny has told German authorities that he worked with Demjanjuk at a concentration camp in Flossenburg, Germany, and lived with him after the war in Landshut, a Bavarian city near Munich, said Guenther Maull, Demjanjuk's attorney in Germany.

What's the name of this camp? They can't even name it? Hahaha. That's how you know it's bullshit.

At 92, Nagorny says he recognized Demjanjuk's picture, worked with him at a German concentration camp and lived with him.

Okay, which picture.

Nagorny, a Ukrainian, also told German public television network ZDF that he knew Demjanjuk well and recognized him from a 1940s photo. The network declined to identify him. It called him "Alex N." on its Web site and used the pseudonym "Dimitri" in an on-air interview.

Oh really? Which photo? Can we see it? Can the media bear to have their claims stand up to scrutiny? Is it the same one that was on that forged KGB ID card?

In a television broadcast May 17, a reporter showed Nagorny a picture of Demjanjuk in a guard's uniform: "This is Ivan, absolutely. I recognize him. ... I'm saying what I saw. We slept in the same room."

He recognized him. You know that's exactly what other witnesses said in John's first trial.
The first ‘survivor’ to testify, Pinhas Epstein, took the stand on 23 February 1987, and told the court that “I am convinced that opposite me sits Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka” (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

Epstein said he saw a photograph of Demjanjuk in an album shown to him in 1978 by Israeli investigators. "I was shown an album and my attention was drawn to one picture, and I identified it as that of Ivan.” (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

“I said the photo was not particularly sharp. It was older than the Ivan I knew, but it was still him. The frame, the round face, the short neck, the wide shoulders and the protruding ears. I told them this is the Ivan I remember,” Epstein said. (Reuters, 23 February 1987.)

“I would go to the gas chambers to take out the corpses . . . he would stand and look at the result of his handiwork – the stabbing of girls, the gouging of eyes, the pieces of the girls' breasts . . . this would occur meters from me,” Epstein continued in his evidence (Reuters, 23 February 1987).

Funny how we aren't told which camp it was because we know thanks to the work of David Cole that those Auschwitz gas chambers were rebuilt into phony gas chambers by the Soviets. They are admitted reconstructions as admitted by the curator to David Cole on videotape. Secondly look at his claim. He said he would take the corpses from the gas chambers? Right there we know this is bullshit because that deadly gas would have killed anyone who hauled the bodies out. It gets in your skin and doesn't get out. That's how you know these Jews are liars and are full of shit. Read THE CHEMICAL AND TOXICOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF THE AUSCHWITZ GAS CHAMBER STORY.

But as it turns out they were mistaken as Israel found no evidence of John being Ivan the terrible and so they acquit him. We're hearing the same old damn record again and again. There was another witness against John in the first trial who claimed that he worked the gas chambers in Treblinka.
The next ‘survivor eyewitness’, Eliyhau Rosenberg, then told the court on 25 February 1987: “This man is Ivan, without a shadow of a doubt – Ivan from Treblinka, from the gas chambers, - the man I am looking at now,” (Reuters, 25 February 1987).

Treblinka gas chambers is also how you know these people were lying on the stand. There was no mass extermination camp at Treblinka and there were no gas chambers. http://www.nafcash.com Archaeologists went there and found no evidence of soil or ground disturbance. No bones or ash either. In other words, no evidence of a holocaust at Treblinka.

Given these factors, it's no wonder Israel had to acquit him. Therefore I'm loathe to believe this cocksucker when we have already had two cocksuckers exposed as liars against John Demjanjuk. You obviously won't acknowledge that this is a witchhunt AL. As a Jew, you feel compelled, regardless of the lack of evidence, to find a nazi under every bed and on every street corner. Even if a court in Israel can't convict him, oh he must be guilty. An accusation is good enough in your book. But it doesn't work that way for rational people. There must be supporting evidence.

All the holocaust EXAGGERATIONS are starting to be exposed on the internet. That's why the media is showing Demjanjuk being attacked again. It's trying to reaffirm the bogus six million number and the phony gas chamber stories. Elie Wiesel was just exposed as a liar and a phony witness not too long ago.
http://www.savethemales.ca/translated_f ... arian.html
http://www.henrymakow.com/elie_wiesel_s ... _iden.html
And some nutcase made up a bogus holocaust story a while ago too. According to him, in his imagination, it was true.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/US/Story?id=6903068&page=1
Oh, here's another whopper. This guy survived SEVERAL gas chambers. Boy for a supposedly methodical killing machine, the Nazis really fucked up here didn't they?
http://www.judicial-inc.biz/Moshe_gassed_six_times.htm

The 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel -- 1988

Joseph G. Burg was the twelfth witness called by the defense. He testified on Tuesday, March 29 and Wednesday, March 30, 1988.

In his books, Burg dealt with the subject of the alleged Nazi extermination camps. Burg had spoken to hundreds of people who had been in Auschwitz and had visited the camp in the fall of 1945. Burg had wanted to see the crematoria, the hospitals, and in particular, a large new bakery. He also wanted to find the gas chambers although at that time gassings were not yet in fashion. He did not find any gas chambers. Burg formed the opinion that there were no "extermination" camps at all, that gas chambers had never existed and that there had been no plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe. These opinions were published in his books and in his correspondence with Zündel. (25-6825 to 6838)

Burg also visited Majdanek three times. He did find gas chambers in Majdanek, but testified that they were disinfection gas chambers for liquidating lice and fleas: bugs which caused epidemics. The chambers were standard in each camp and had the German words "Attention! Poisonous Gas!" under a death skull. Zyklon B was the new formula used to disinfect the clothing. It destroyed the bugs but not the fabric. (25-6839)

Burg testified that he spoke to hundreds of people who serviced and operated the crematoria but the people who operated gas chambers were impossible to find. Nobody had published anything in which it was claimed that he worked in a gassing institution for human beings. There was literature about gassing that was completely contradictory. Why? Because it was all made up. These opinions were published in his books. (25-6840)

Like all other activities in the camp, the inmates looked after the crematoria. It was the most difficult work because of the heat and the lifting of corpses into the ovens. The inmates worked very often in three shifts around the clock. (26-6998) These workers did it voluntarily. They were asked by the Jewish council or the Jewish police. It was important to ask how the Jewish council or police co-operated with the German SS. (26-6900)

When they were in full operation, the chimneys had an increased amount of smoke. So, logically, depending on the weather or the time of day, the colour of the flames was different. People invented stories that inside devilish things were going on. They said living human beings were being burned. They invented the story that every crematorium was a gas chamber. It had even gotten to the point that the authors had such large imaginations that when they saw the blue colour of the smoke, they knew that Jews were being burned. (26-6898, 6899)

Others invented the story that living Jews were being pushed in to be burned. Burg testified that he would like to see a Jew who had given such statements during a trial. He said such a Jew should be forced to take an oath under the rabbi rites with the skull cap, without pictures of Christ, with the Hebrew Bible, in the presence of a rabbi or a pious religious Jew. Then he should swear an oath that he had seen something like that. Then these false statements, these sick statements, would go down by 99.5 percent because the superficial oath was not morally binding for these Jews. (26-6900)

At the time he was in a displaced persons camp, Burg spoke to thirty or forty people about gas chambers and to about five to ten people about the crematoria. He had a special permit allowing him to visit the different areas where Jewish displaced persons were. He tried to get interviews from various ghettos and camps because at that time he had already checked various false statements. (26-6901)

[size=b]In 1946 Burg attended the Nuremberg trials at times when matters involving Jews were being raised. During one of these attendances he met Ilya Ehrenburg and a Jewish publisher who had been in Auschwitz for several years. Burg asked the publisher whether he had seen any gassing institutions for human beings and he said no. Ehrenburg, who had been the head of propaganda for the Red Army during the war, told Burg he had been to Auschwitz but he too had not seen anything of gassings. Burg had discussed this information with Zündel in general. (25-6857, 6858) Burg could not understand the emphasis on gassings. (26-6904)[/b]

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 3 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:40 am)

Survivor of gas chambers faces Nazi in court

By Tony Paterson
10:53 AM Wednesday Jan 20, 2010
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10621220

MUNICH - "I am still in Sobibor 67 years on," the trembling man told Court 101. "I still have nightmares about the place. They are so vivid that they are real to me. I can never escape, this is what I have to live with ... this is the price I paid for getting out."

Thomas "Toivi" Blatt is one of a handful of survivors from the Nazi extermination camp in occupied Poland, and the man most likely to incriminate John Demjanjuk, an alleged SS guard at Sobibor, in what has been billed as the last Holocaust trial.

Yesterday in a Munich court, Mr Blatt, 82, told judges how he watched his father being brutally clubbed in the face minutes before his parents and 10-year-old brother were dispatched to the gas chambers n among 250,000 Jews who were systematically slaughtered at the camp during World War II.

Both the chief witness and the accused in this trial are in their eighties, yet they could hardly have looked more different. Lying prone and fully dressed in a hospital bed, tucked away in the corner, was the 89-year-old, Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk.

He has refused to say anything during the trial, which opened in December, but his appearance in court yesterday bordered on farcical.

At times, he appeared to be asleep, a bluish baseball cap pulled over his eyes. He was a figure, almost forgotten. Instead, all eyes were on the sprightly, yet clearly emotional, octogenarian on the witness stand, who recounted his personal tale of horror in a heavily accented mixture of English and German over the course of five hours of testimony.

Mr Blatt only survived Sobibor because he was selected as a so-called "work-Jew". Instead of being murdered upon arrival, he was chosen to shave the heads of women in a barrack room before they were dispatched to the gas chambers next door. The women's hair would ultimately be sent to Germany and turned into blankets for U-Boat crews.

His evidence is expected to play a vital role in determining the outcome of the trial, even though he is not able to positively identify Demjanjuk as being at the camp. "I can't say I remember Demjanjuk's face, but frankly I can't even recall that of my father or my mother after so many decades," he told the court. However, German prosecutors say they will present evidence from Russian World War II files which will prove conclusively that Demjanjuk was working as an SS guard in Sobibor at the time of the atrocities described by Mr Blatt, and is therefore complicit in the murder of the 27,900 Dutch Jews.

Mr Blatt was rounded up by the SS in 1943 in the Jewish ghetto village of Izbica, 43 miles from Sobibor. He recalled yesterday that although the camp was renowned as a death factory, he was shocked on arrival to see that it was almost beautiful.

"There was a little railway station. The camp commandant's house was called the 'Swallow's Nest' and the barbed wire fences had been interwoven with green twigs," he said. "I was shocked but in the back of my mind I knew I was going to die."

Mr Blatt described how he was put in a group of 200 Jews who were driven to the camp in lorries. When they disembarked, they were surrounded by dozens of Ukrainian guards wearing black SS uniforms and brandishing whips and rifles.

The court was then thrown into darkness as a map of the camp was projected on to the wall and, with a juddering hand, Mr Blatt traced his route with a ballpoint pen.

"There were shouts of Raus! Raus! (Out! Out!). One of the German officers asked if there were any tradesmen in our group. My father said he was a tanner. The camp didn't need any tanners so the officer just hit him in the face with a club," Mr Blatt told the court. He never saw his parents and brother again.

His fate, however, led not to the gas chamber. He was selected to work for the Nazis. "I was only 15 but strong and healthy. I just pleaded 'Take me! Take me!' to the officer and suddenly he said to me, 'Come on, little one'," Mr Blatt continued.

From then until his miraculous escape five months later, he was forced to witness the horrific day-to-day workings of the Nazi death machine. He was allowed to live, albeit under the constant threat of death at any time. His memories of working at the camp's "barber shop" were chilling.

"The Dutch Jews were all gullible. They had been told that they were being given a shower for sanitary reasons and had to have their hair cut. One Dutch woman even asked me not to cut her hair too short; she still believed she was not going to die," he recounted. "But the Polish Jews knew exactly what faced them. One Polish woman asked me why I was helping the SS. 'How can you do this?' she asked. I told her I was trying to survive."

Mr Blatt recalled in chilling detail how Sobibor's 120 Ukrainian SS guards used to herd Jewish men, women and children up the "Road to Heaven" with whips and bayonets towards the gas chambers. Once there, the Jews were killed by carbon monoxide exhaust fumes in a process that could take as long as 40 minutes.

"When the guards came back they had blood on their boots," he said. "They used the bayonets to cram the people into the gas chambers." The frail and elderly who could not walk were taken to a nearby chapel and routinely shot in the back of the head. Later a railway was specially built to carry them to the gas chambers. The Polish Jews murdered in Sobibor hoped to the very last that they might find a way of getting out. On the mornings after the mass gassings, Mr Blatt was ordered to sweep the "Road to Heaven" with a broom.

"I used to pick up hundreds of bits of coloured paper lying in the road. It was the money which people had kept clenched in their fists after being stripped naked," he told the court. "They hoped until the last that they would be able to buy their freedom. When they finally realised it was hopeless, they tore up the money. They were defiant to the end, they did not want the guards to get it."

Describing the Ukrainian guard unit in Sobibor to which Demjanjuk is alleged to have belonged, Mr Blatt said they used to round up prisoners and shoot them at random.

One of his jobs was to search through the clothing of the Jews after they had been gassed, looking for valuables and money. "The Ukrainians wanted us to provide them with gold and money to buy vodka and prostitutes," he said.

"We were terrified of them, they were far worse than the Germans ... they were the most important personnel in Sobibor," he added. "Without them, the death factory wouldn't have functioned."

The trial continues. A verdict is expected in April.

- INDEPENDENT

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:44 am)

Thomas Blatt heard the diesel engine at Sobibor
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5879

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:56 am)

Another great one from Paul Grubach.

The Sobibor “Death Camp” in the Context of the Demjanjuk Case

By Paul Grubach
copyright 2009

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On April 14, John Demjanjuk was almost deported to Germany to stand trial for alleged war crimes. A last minute ruling by the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati blocked this German extradition request, and the 89 year-old Ukrainian émigré was returned to his home.

German authorities claim Demjanjuk walked Jews from train cars to the “gas chambers” at the WWII Sobibor concentration camp. In view of this allegation, I would like to briefly examine the so-called evidence for the existence of “homicidal gas chambers” at Sobibor.

Holocaust historian Robert Jan van Pelt conceded the evidence for the mass killings of Jews at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec—where allegedly millions were murdered—is very meager. In reference to these three camps, he wrote: "There are few eyewitnesses, no confession that can compare to that given by [Auschwitz commandant Rudolf] Höss, no significant remains, and few archival sources."1 In other words, the only support for the traditional extermination story at Sobibor is the testimony of former inmates and German officials who were on trial for alleged war crimes.

The Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes in Poland asserted that 250,000 people were murdered at Sobibor.2 The pre-eminent Holocaust authority, the late Raul Hilberg, engaged in “Holocaust denial.” He denied that 250,000 people were murdered at Sobibor. He reduced this figure by twenty percent, as he claimed that up to 200,000 people were murdered at Sobibor.3

Polish archaeologists who investigated the camp site find it “very difficult to imagine how the killing of 250,000 took place here.”4 This statement has subsequently disappeared from their web site.5

All the same, Sobibor survivor Moshe Bahir narrated that in February of 1943, the Germans celebrated the murder of the first million Jews.6 I repeat: Polish forensic scientists cannot imagine how 250,000 people could be murdered at Sobibor, and Holocaust historian Hilberg reduced the number allegedly slaughtered down to 200,000. Nevertheless, “accurate eyewitness” Bahir claims that four times 250,000 were murdered at the site! Bahir’s testimony is of such “high quality” that it earned him the honor of testifying at the 1965 Sobibor Trial in Hagen, West Germany.7

Holocaust historian Leon Poliakov claimed there were five gas chambers, fifty square meters each, and built to hold approximately 2,000 people. Each chamber was packed with 400 victims.8

In the same book, Holocaust historian Miriam Novitch contradicts Poliakov on the dimensions and capacity of the “gas chambers.” She claims the “original” three gas chambers were ten square meters and could hold 50 people. Later on new gas chambers were built, five of them in total, and each was 4 x 12 meters (forty-eight square meters) and could hold 70 to 80 victims.9

This is all contradicted by another “expert” on the Sobibor camp, Yitzhak Arad. He insisted there were originally three gas chambers, each 4 x 4 meters and able to hold about 200 people.10 In the autumn of 1942, Arad claims the Germans added three new gas chambers, to make a total of six gas chambers. They were of the same dimensions as the old gas chambers, 4 x 4 meters (sixteen square meters).11

Now, let’s get our contradictions straight. Poliakov says each of the five gas chambers were fifty square meters with a capacity of 400 victims. Arad says there were originally three gas chambers. Subsequently, three new gas chambers were added to make a total of six chambers. Each chamber was sixteen square meters with a capacity of about 200 victims. But Novitch claims the “original” chambers were ten square meters and could hold 50 victims. Later the five new gas chambers were forty-eight square meters and could hold 70 to 80 victims. These are no minor discrepancies. In any murder investigation the nature of the murder weapon is of prime importance.

The inconsistencies in the official story don’t stop here. The pre-eminent historian of the Holocaust, the late Raul Hilberg, claimed that a diesel engine supplied the deadly gas to “gas chambers.”12 This is contradicted by Arad, who cites the testimony of a German official who was put on trial for alleged war crimes committed at Sobibor. He “identified” the engine that supplied the deadly gas as a benzene engine.13

Former Sobibor camp inmate, Jacob Biskubicz, implies that chlorine was the lethal gas used in the “homicidal chambers,” for he stated: “I couldn’t believe in the reality of camp No. 3 [where the mass gassings allegedly took place]. One day, I was pushing a wheelbarrow loaded with chlorine and, eager to know what was happening in the camp, I went beyond the limit. I was nearly killed.”14

Sobibor eyewitness Hella Fellenbaum-Weiss told the story of how Jews on their way to Sobibor were gassed with chlorine. We let her pick up her story here: “The arrival of another convoy distressed me in the same way. It was thought to come from Lvov, but nobody knows for sure. Prisoners were sobbing and told us a dreadful tale: they had been gassed on the way with chlorine, but some survived. The bodies of the dead were green and their skin peeled off.”15

Sobibor survivor Moshe Bahir also suggests that chlorine was the gas used in the “Sobibor gas chambers.” He recounted: “I remember one incident that happened to a group of our comrades: one day several of them were ordered to roll barrels of chlorine towards the death camp [Lager 3]. They went out hastily, spurred on by blows from their guards, and when they arrived with the barrels at the border of Lager 3 the gate opened and the Jews who worked at the crematoria came to meet them to get the chlorine. The men of our camp were ready to return, but suddenly, Oberscharführer Bolander appeared and ordered those who had brought the barrels to join those who had met them at Lager 3. We saw them no more.”16

So, once again, here we have another problem. The official story coming from Raul Hilberg asserts that a diesel engine supplied the deadly gas used to commit mass murder. Nevertheless, Holocaust expert Arad cites the testimony of a German official who claimed that a benzene engine was used. Yet, other Sobibor “eyewitnesses” say the murder weapon was chlorine, not diesel or benzene engine exhaust. The chlorine gas story has clearly been quietly abandoned and the “engine exhaust” story is now the “official truth.” But did the Germans use a diesel or benzene engine?

At this point the hardcore believer in the Sobibor gas chambers should ask himself this question: if the story of Jews being gassed with chlorine at Sobibor is false, isn’t it also possible that the story of Jews being gassed with some type of engine exhaust is also untrue?

The next logical question: how were the bodies removed from the “gas chambers?” Historian Arad says that the victims entered through one door and their dead bodies were extracted through the other.17

This is contradicted by “accurate eyewitness” Moshe Bahir. He claimed that after the conclusion of a mass gassing, when all of the victims were dead, the “gas chamber operator” Bauer would open the “trap doors” in the floor of the gas chamber (the “bathhouse”) and the bodies would fall into wagons positioned below. In his own words: “At his [Bauer’s] order the machinery which opened the floor of the ‘bathhouse’ was activated, and the corpses fell into small carts which took them at first to mass graves and, later when time was short, to cremation ovens instead.”18

According to Arad, when three new gas chambers were added in autumn of 1942, they were the same size as the “old” gas chambers, 4 x 4 meters. He made no mention of any “trap doors” through which the bodies fell into carts positioned below.19

Let us consider the next logical question: how were the dead bodies transferred from the gas chambers to the mass graves, where they were allegedly burned? According to Sobibor expert Arad, the bodies were originally put in carts, which were horse-drawn or pushed by prisoners. Eventually, this inefficient system was replaced by a narrow railway trolley that ran to the burial pits.20

Yet, even here, the testimony of Bahir is substantially different from the story presented by Holocaust expert Arad. Toward the end of July 1942, the Germans installed giant cranes to transport the bodies from the “gas chambers” to a crematorium. In Bahir’s own words: “After a few days, two giant cranes were brought to camp and set up near the gas chambers. These cranes worked unceasingly, three shift a day, taking the bodies out of the chambers and transferring them to the new crematoria which had been built nearby.”21

Here is my most important point. If a hardcore believer in the orthodox Sobibor “extermination story” simply consults academically acceptable sources, even he will find enough evidence to be very skeptical of the “gas chambers” of Sobibor. The contradictions and falsehoods that I’ve enumerated here are exactly what one should expect from a historical myth.

The reader should keep this in mind during any possible future trial of John Demjanjuk for the crime of “leading Jews to the gas chambers.” Indeed, as I’ve shown elsewhere, this is precisely the ulterior reason for the further prosecution of the hapless Demjanjuk. The promoters of the Holocaust mythology want to use a show trial to fight the phenomenal growth of “Holocaust denial.”22

Notes
1. Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial (Indiana University Press, 2002), p. 5.

2. Miriam Novitch, ed., Sobibor: Martyrdom and Revolt (Holocaust Library, 1980), p. 33.

3. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews: Student Edition (Holmes & Meier, 1985), p. 338.

4. Thomas Dalton, Debating the Holocaust: A New Look at Both Sides (Theses & Dissertations Press), p. 119.

5. See http://www.undersobibor.org/

6. Novitch, p. 156.

7. Ibid, p. 152.

8. Ibid, p. 12.

9. Ibid, pp. 24, 26.

10. Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps (Indiana University Press, 1987), p. 31.

11. Ibid, p. 123.

12. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews: Student Edition (Holmes & Meier), p. 229.

13. Arad, p. 31.

14. Novitch, p. 121.

15. Ibid, p. 50.

16. Ibid, p. 148.

17. Arad, p. 31.

18. Novitch, p. 147.

19. Arad, p. 123.

20. Ibid, pp. 32, 123-124.

21. Novitch, p. 155.

22. See Paul Grubach, “Hunting Demjanjuk: Injustice, Double Standards, and Ulterior Agendas.” Online: http://www.codoh.com/revisionist/tr08demjanjuk.html

Drew J
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:13 am

Re: The John Demjanjuk chronicles (starting from May2009)

Postby Drew J » 9 years 1 week ago (Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:37 pm)

patriot9878 Reply:

April 10th, 2010 at 12:59 pm

I’m guessing not. Such a huge number of leaders. Do any of you doubt what will happen in Poland now? They will do whatever Russia wants. This is how it’s done.
The lady that wouldn’t take the isnurance money for her husband from 9/11 I warned this lady don’t get on any planes a week before the plane crash she was involved in. Someone warm Jim Traficant if he goes to Europe to help Demenyak to please take a ship. Planes when they fail they fail big.


Posted at an infowars article about the anti EU polish politicians being shot out of the sky.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest