RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

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Kiwichap
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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 months ago (Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:02 am)

"Mattogno acknowledges that the Aug 23 aerial picture shows an outdoor cremation. Certainly the reason behind the cremation is the contested point."

Not so. Have you blown the two photos up two feet wide? Have you checked out every little spot, dot and shadow?

What I am saying is the 23rd photo belongs between the two 25ths. Frame 4187, if you will. Apart from that, I'm open to suggestions as to whats going on. I think this smoke was added for effect.
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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 2 months ago (Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:42 am)

The August 25 photos came out in 1979, or rather a closeup section around Krema II and III was released by the CIA. However the full frame was never released.

Then in around 2003 the "smoke" photo was released. And finally, thirty years later, the full two frams of August 25 was released.
Incidently the Mai 1944 photo released in 1979 was also supposed to show smoke on it, but it was just a sort of dark smear in the same area in Krema V. The 2003 version looks much more convincing, demonstrating if nothing else, what great strides have been made in image manipulation technology over a mere twenty or so years.

Sophocles had it right "Numberless are the world's wonders, but none more wonderful than man"

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby SevenUp » 1 decade 2 months ago (Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:45 pm)

Kiwichap, did you buy the high res copies of the images? Could you make them available to us, for research purposes of course.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 months ago (Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:22 pm)

Kiwichap wrote:"Mattogno acknowledges that the Aug 23 aerial picture shows an outdoor cremation. Certainly the reason behind the cremation is the contested point."

Not so. Have you blown the two photos up two feet wide? Have you checked out every little spot, dot and shadow?


Nope, and don't really plan to. My experience with expanding images to such enormous size is not good, and one can hardly tell anything from anything, and especially would not be able to determine if smoke was added to the image.

Here is the text of Mattogno's interpretation in the aforementioned book earlier in the thread, without the need to resorting to forgery allegations:

10.3.2. The Area of Crematorium V

As opposed to the zone around the alleged "Bunker 2," there is a column of
smoke in the yard north of crematorium V. 233 When comparing this image
with the photograph taken on May 31, one can see that the smoking area is
now some 30 meters further west. 234 The location of this area with respect to
the north door of the alleged gas chamber corresponds exactly to the field of
view of photographs 277 and 278 which show a scene of outdoor cremation. '
The photograph of August 23, 1944, therefore shows from the air what photo-
graphs 277 and 278 show on the ground. The cremation area stood at about 7
by 7 meters in size, and this order of magnitude agrees perfectly well with my
analysis of the two terrestrial photographs mentioned.

At the western corner offence 35 there was a guard tower which still exists
today. 236 Starting from there and going east, on the fourteenth pillar a lamp to
illuminate the fence had been installed, which is also present on the second
pillar from the left in document 26. Photograph 278 clearly shows two pillars
of the enclosure, but without lamps. For that reason, it covers a field of view
which begins to the right (to the east) of pillar 14. This is confirmed by the
fact that the field of view of this photograph meets fence 35 a few meters be-
fore the 14th pillar. 237 Therefore the field of view of photograph 278 matches
well with the area between the third pillar (from the left) and the eighth of
document 26.

The new cremation site already appears on the air photo taken on July 8,
1944. There is, in fact, a column of white smoke rising from it, whereas the
chimneys of the crematoria actually do not produce any smoke. The area of
the alleged "Bunker 2" is outside the picture.

Thus, there were two cremation sites in the yard of crematorium V, but
they were used in succession. This point of fact is at variance with all the tes-
timonies, which speak of between two and five trenches in that area (J. Sehn
even has 6). Of these testimonies, the most important one is the one by
Fajnzylberg-Jankowski, the only witness to have indicated the number, the lo-
cations, and the dimensions of the alleged cremation trenches, but his draw-
ing 239 is completely refuted by the air photos.

10.3.3. The Historical Framework

Chronologically speaking, the newly discovered photograph fits into the
period of the deportation to Auschwitz of the Jews from the Lodz ghetto. Ac-
cording to the Holocausters it should therefore show a scene of outdoor mass
cremation of corpses belonging to persons from this ghetto who had been
gassed.

However, even a man like Robert Jan van Pelt 240 has contested F. Piper's 241
official figures of 60,000-70,000 persons claimed to have been brought to
Auschwitz from this ghetto, reducing it to 25,000. In a separate article 242 I
have demonstrated on the basis of documents that the Jews from Lodz taken to
Auschwitz numbered some 22,500, of whom no less than 1 1,500 adult women
were transferred to Stutthof without having previously been registered. There
were at least some forty-odd children among them aged between 6 months
(the youngest one being Jacob Gittel, born March 6, 1944!) and 14 years,
whom I have listed and who were obviously not gassed.

Of the men, 3,076 were registered; the fate of the 7,900 others is unknown.
Up to August 22, 1944, five transports from Lodz arrived at Auschwitz (on
August 15, 16, 17, 21, and 22) with some 12,500 Jews, 1,100 of whom were
registered and 6,400 sent on to the transit camp at Birkenau without registra-
tion, waiting to be moved on. Even under the assumption that the remaining
5,000 were gassed (but if the children mentioned above were not gassed, why
should the adult men have been gassed?), this would have happened within the
span of eight days. On August 22, about 1,200 Jews are said to have been
gassed, a load, which the crematoria could have swallowed without choking,
if we follow F. Piper. As we have seen above, he has, in fact, dared to write
that the Birkenau crematoria were able to cremate 8,000 corpses per day! Fur-
thermore, according to D. Czech's Kalendarium, no transport at all arrived
on August 23. Thus, on that day there were absolutely no gassed victims to be
burned outdoors. How can we then explain the column of smoke visible on the
photograph taken on August 23? It could only have been registered detainees
who had died in the camp.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 months ago (Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:15 am)

Wahrheit, be that as it may. You miss my point. Perhaps Mattogno, like you, couldn't be bothered to have a proper look at the two photographs. You needn't blow them up 2 feet. Stick them in your paint program and zoom them up together. Remember, you are not looking for anything. You are only trying to spot the difference.
There was no holocaust.



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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby nathan » 1 decade 2 months ago (Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:55 pm)

The billowing smoke is shown on frames 3084 through 3086 of sortie /686 which took place on 23 August 1944. The smoke is absent from frames 4186 through 4187 which belong to sortie /0694 that flew on the 25 August. Frame 4187 is present and correct. Smoke frame 3084 surfaced to great publicity in February 2004. A section from the 25 August smokeless photos has been around since 1979, when Brugioni presented those highly suspect four holes.

The Scottish online archive will prove baffling to other simpletons like me, who may save more time than I did after clicking the archive home page link below. Then click Poland among the “wartime imagery” countries; then click Silesian Province; then type Plawy and, separately, Brzezinka in the search slot. Each entry should give you a list of frames for that area. The blue light bulbs represent individual frames. There is a useful but well concealed back button.

aerial.rcahms.gov.uk

The satanic, and therefore respectable explanation is that the unsmoking crematoria were going at full blast while the smoke came from the overspill from those deportations, mainly from the Lodz ghetto, which arrived in (disputable) numbers between the (disputable) dates 15 and 22 August. The banal explanations are two: either that this smoke came from the incineration of rubbish or else (Mattogno) from the cremation of about forty or fifty prisoners who had died a “natural” death. The conspiratorial explanation is that the photo is a fake.

Since Mattogno believes the crematoria were in good working order, but not actually being used , he must indeed have argued that Auschwitz was saving on coke. But I cannot find exactly where he said this, or on what specific evidence. Can Warheit give us exact chapter and verse on this? As against Pressac, Mattogno evidently believes that overworked coke-fuelled crematoria chimneys would have emitted smoke, as they did somewhere in at least one photo.

Were the Germans saving on Crematorium fuel? Would the chimneys have smoked? How many people arrived and were either registered or put in the Transit Camp? One would need answers before forming even a tentative view. Perhaps relevant to the last question is:

Frizjof Meyer, quoted on Irving’s website :

Danuta Czech counts only 4,818 deportees originating in Lodz for the period August 15 to September 2, 1944, while Piper (supported by Obozy) estimates 55000 to 65000. As of now, however, transport of such a large number is documented by nothing except a declaration of intent on the part of the German authorities. At the time of the dissolution of the ghetto on 21 August 1944, 61,174 Jews were still there (Biuletyn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego, Warszawa 1955 No.13/14, page 177, footnote 16). 26,000 of these reached Stutthof; they could have come via Auschwitz transit camp. The War Refugee Board of President of the US, which was very well informed, announced in its weekly report for January 1-6, 1945 that 60,000 to 80,000 Jews were concentrated in Lodz.


Pending answers to these questions I find nothing absurd in the simple explanation of ordinary incineration. But I stand ready to be corrected.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 months ago (Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:52 pm)

nathan wrote:Since Mattogno believes the crematoria were in good working order, but not actually being used , he must indeed have argued that Auschwitz was saving on coke. But I cannot find exactly where he said this, or on what specific evidence. Can Warheit give us exact chapter and verse on this? As against Pressac, Mattogno evidently believes that overworked coke-fuelled crematoria chimneys would have emitted smoke, as they did somewhere in at least one photo.


Hey Nathan.

I never made such an allegation (open incinerations used to save coke in crematoria), but Pappy Yokum did:

The reason for the smoke really is outdoor cremation of the dead, but not because the industrial murder machine at Birkenau was glutted with gas chamber victims. Coke was no longer being delivered to the crematoria because Germany was losing the war and running out of fuel. The dead were burned on pyres in the yard near Krema V.


He cites Mattogno's AOAI book, but he is incorrect; Mattogno never alleges the use of pyres to save coke for the crematoria, at least not in that book.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby nathan » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:12 am)

I was not calling on Warheit to justify some allegation. I was simply trying to pick his brains because I had trouble, as he evidently did not, downloading the Mattogno Open Air booklet into a readable format. Added sources of unclarity are the polemics and accusations which abound in all Holocaust literature. I do find that on what may be page 30 Mattogno has written in connection with the Hungarian action:


However, for such an enormous cremation, which the Birkenau crematoria
could not possibly have handled, the camp administration and the Central Construction Office did not in the least consider those mass cremation projects of early 1943. Jan Sehn considered this fact to be so absurd that he felt obliged - in an act of blatant fraud - to move the projects of early 1943 into the sum-mer of 1944. He wrote:

"The method of burning a large number of bodies in open pits, as used
in August 1944, proved to be quickest and most economical. Thus the cre
matoria stopped working and only the pits were used.



If quoted correctly, Sehn may be guilty of no more than a misprint. Otherwise he seems to seems to be saying that the Germans used during the Hungarian period of May-June a method which proved its worth the following August. No matter; he does apparently allow that huge numbers could be accommodated in pits while for reasons of economy all the crematoria were closed. If that held for his big May-June numbers it would hold a fortiori for Mattogno’ small August 23 numbers. Coke is likely to have been in much shorter supply later in the year; but we are a long speculative distance from a solid fact.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:12 pm)

nathan wrote:I was not calling on Warheit to justify some allegation. I was simply trying to pick his brains because I had trouble, as he evidently did not, downloading the Mattogno Open Air booklet into a readable format.


I have my ways. :)


If quoted correctly, Sehn may be guilty of no more than a misprint. Otherwise he seems to seems to be saying that the Germans used during the Hungarian period of May-June a method which proved its worth the following August. No matter; he does apparently allow that huge numbers could be accommodated in pits while for reasons of economy all the crematoria were closed. If that held for his big May-June numbers it would hold a fortiori for Mattogno’ small August 23 numbers.


One must no doubt challenge this assertion by Sehn (which Mattogno doesn't), that open-pits are more economical than crematoria ovens, especially if one believes that the Birkenau ovens could cremate a body on 3.5kg of coke. I assume that Sehn was simply off-base in his judgment.

Coke is likely to have been in much shorter supply later in the year; but we are a long speculative distance from a solid fact.


Likely, as everything was in short supply. However, there probably was some supply of coke, as the ovens of Krema V continued to be used for normal cremation operations right up until the camp was evacuated in January 1945.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby nathan » 1 decade 2 months ago (Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:47 pm)

Warheit assumes that Sehn was “off-base.” Mattogno assumes that he was not. The burden of disproof is not symmetrical however. One "must" challenge Sehn only if one wants to maintain that all crematoria were at never closed for economical reasons during a busy period in 1944. One must challenge Danuta Czech’s numbers only if one wants to maintain the numbers arriving from Lodz were so huge that the crematoria could not cope.

That is to say, official testimony that subverts official doctrine is a challenge only for those who support the official doctrine. For the revisionists it is the best testimony they can expect. Since unbiased impartial testimony is nowhere to be found, the next best thing is testimony against bias.

We would all agree that Sehn was “off-base” when he maintained the there were five million dead at Auschwitz, a number which he, being exceptionally well-informed, cannot possibly have believed. In that case he had an obvious motive. But in the present case the motive for error is not at all obvious. The quoted remark does not of course prove Mattogno’s argument, but it does support it. The odd thing is that Mattogno himself does not seem to deploy it for this purpose. In such parts of his pamphlet as I have read he does not explicitly address the obvious question: if the total number on August 23 was small, why not use one of the crematoria?

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 months ago (Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:06 am)

nathan: "Pending answers to these questions I find nothing absurd in the simple explanation of ordinary incineration. But I stand ready to be corrected.

Yeah, but incineration of what? That corner is miles from the two gasser morgues. Imagine dragging gassed corpses all the way up there just to burn them.

I expect a big camp like Auschwitz to have a large regular rubbish collection. You know; all the packaging from those Red Cross parcels and what have you. You should see my street on a Friday morning. It looks like a dump. Man! how do we collect so muck rubbish?

So the camp would have to have an incinerator, and I push my point again!! A boiler. so, where is all the smoke I should be seeing?

Bodies burn black don't they? that's how fat burns. Where is all the thick black smoke?
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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 months ago (Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:24 am)

Ya gotta laugh, don't ya?

Apparently the Germans were cooking and roasting Jews for years. YET... this is all we have folks. Out of 10 million photographs; the Superman janitor was able to set alight and burn the rubbish in 1.00345 seconds, and put the fire out before the next shot was snapped.

Image

Yeah, that's all you get.. dodgy frame and all.
There was no holocaust.



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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby nathan » 1 decade 2 months ago (Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:06 pm)

The next shot is frame 3085 of the westward sortie 60PR/686 on 23 August. It shows the same smoke. So does 3086. The sequence can be viewed online at the National Collection of Aerial Photography. The smoke may be a fabrication, perhaps, but it is unlikely to be one that would be detected by perfunctory research.

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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 1 month ago (Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:59 pm)

Sure nathan, there must have been smoke coming from the camp every day for sundry different reasons. But we are told there was a program of genocide going on, 24 hrs a day, for years.

Is that smoky corner, on one particular day only, all I get to see of the genocide? Is that smoky corner on the 23rd August the genocide of 6 million Jews?

Where are the days upon months of years of Jews lined up for the gasser. Where are the pits? where are the flames coming outta the chimney?

Ten Million photos and this is all I get??

Apparently you can see some folk lined up for roll call. Ya just gotta laugh.

The Jews said they were getting gassed. The Allies overflew the camp and took many photos. The Allies decided the photos showed no such thing occurring. They didn't believe the Jews, so they didn't bomb the place.

The photos show Auschwitz was a clean, spruce camp, very tidy.
Last edited by Kiwichap on Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAF's wartime reconnaissance photos go online in new archive

Postby nathan » 1 decade 1 month ago (Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:07 pm)

Where exactly did I say I could see people lined up for roll call? No dodging!


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