Russian gauge and the Holocaust

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ginger
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Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby ginger » 9 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:23 pm)

What I know about this topic comes from Wikipedia - which I looked up because a revisionist theorized that the gauge of the train tracks from Poland to the Soviet Union changed from a standard gauge to what is called Russian gauge. Thus to deport, or evacuate, the Jews from Poland to the newly conquered East, they all had to board a second train at the eastern border of Poland in order to continue East.

Says Wiki -

"The interconnected and compatible system covers Russia and most of the former Soviet Union, including the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics and Mongolia."

If this is true, hundreds of thousands were not killed on the spot at the eastern border of Poland but rather were loaded onto a second set of trains and deported into former Soviet territory.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:30 pm)

ginger wrote:If this is true, hundreds of thousands were not killed on the spot at the eastern border of Poland but rather were loaded onto a second set of trains and deported into former Soviet territory.


The Soviets were on a wider gauge than the Germans, but following the Nazi invasion, these gauges were changed to the Nazi measurement.

It would make no sense for the Germans to maintain the Soviet gauge, as none of their trains could run on them. And as the Reinhard(t) camps are said to have went to death-camp functioning in early 1942, the gauge difference would not be present.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Kiwichap » 9 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:39 pm)

these gauges were changed to the Nazi measurement

Wahrheit; I'd like to read about that. Post a link huh.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:17 pm)

Kiwichap wrote:Wahrheit; I'd like to read about that. Post a link huh.


It's a pretty basic point in the history of the Eastern front, the failure to capture and utilize captured Soviet rolling stock, and thus the heavier reliance placed upon Eisenbahntruppe.

Here is a forum discussion about it (non-academic): http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767

Andreas and Qvist are generally well reputable posters. I also have van Creveld's book where he discusses this issue several times in his chapter on Hitler's invasion of the USSR.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Kiwichap » 9 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:37 pm)

Wahrheit gives a link.

a few days ago I read about situation during US Civil War; Union railway maintenance troops rerailed some 80 mails (sic) in 8 hours. 80 miles in 8 hours


80 miles in 8 hours Hey Wahrheit, get me the source for that.

The thing is Wahrheit, being an ex railway locomotive engineer, I sure would like to see folk do that - 80 miles in 8 hours. Even with our most modern equipment and intelligent delivery, we can't do anything like that. Nothing like that at all. I won't embarrass you with the numbers except to say; ginger has hit a holo nail on it's head.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:45 am)

Kiwichap wrote:80 miles in 8 hours Hey Wahrheit, get me the source for that.

The thing is Wahrheit, being an ex railway locomotive engineer, I sure would like to see folk do that - 80 miles in 8 hours. Even with our most modern equipment and intelligent delivery, we can't do anything like that. Nothing like that at all. I won't embarrass you with the numbers except to say; ginger has hit a holo nail on it's head.


That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand (Civil War to Holocaust), and may indeed be fallacious. Obviously, it is a discussion forum, and much like with here, there are posters whose factual reliability comes into question. Van Creveld gives it as some 300 miles in a little over two weeks, performed by the limited staff of the Eisenbahntruppe.

I suggest actually looking over the thread's discussion of WWII German railway regauging, including the excerpt from Stolfi (who is heatedly debated, but largely solid on this point-and even gives highlights of their regauging efforts).

One can not seriously suggest that the Germans would be willing to NOT regauge the railway when sending material into the Soviet Union. Such would have been a logistical nightmare, and would have cost them the war much sooner than it did. Indeed, the bottleneck for the German supply system was recognized at the time to be the switchover points from German rail to Soviet rail (Umschlagsellen). These transfer points were constantly pushed eastward.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Kiwichap » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:23 am)

Wahrheit:That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand

80 miles in 8 hours. Laying or relaying railway track. C'mon Wahrheit. the topic is 'Russian gauge and the Holocaust'.

Before you are smashed to smithereens, give us your best shot at confirming that even 10% of that mileage is possible per track per 8hrs.

Point being, trying to rebuild a railway line is futile under wartime conditions. Relaying one bridge will take you a blitz and a half. Yeah, you change the point of balance, you probably die.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:25 am)

Kiwichap wrote:Wahrheit:That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand

80 miles in 8 hours. Laying or relaying railway track. C'mon Wahrheit. the topic is 'Russian gauge and the Holocaust'.

Before you are smashed to smithereens, give us your best shot at confirming that even 10% of that mileage is possible per track per 8hrs.


I have no intention to, for that statement is regarding the US CIVIL WAR! Again, we should only be concerned with the German efforts during the Second World War, information on which I have already posted (and which is documented fairly heavily).

You're using it as a red herring.

Point being, trying to rebuild a railway line is futile under wartime conditions. Relaying one bridge will take you a blitz and a half. Yeah, you change the point of balance, you probably die.


Obviously have not studied much on modern logistical warfare. Check out Van Creveld or even Stolfi (who is online).

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby MrNobody » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:29 pm)

Kiwichap wrote:Wahrheit gives a link.

a few days ago I read about situation during US Civil War; Union railway maintenance troops rerailed some 80 mails (sic) in 8 hours. 80 miles in 8 hours


80 miles in 8 hours Hey Wahrheit, get me the source for that.

The thing is Wahrheit, being an ex railway locomotive engineer, I sure would like to see folk do that - 80 miles in 8 hours. Even with our most modern equipment and intelligent delivery, we can't do anything like that. Nothing like that at all. I won't embarrass you with the numbers except to say; ginger has hit a holo nail on it's head.


Yeah, you know what, I'd like to see someone dig a canal 3 meters x 3 meters x 30 meters in a day, but apparently the "Navvies" employed during the Industrial Revolution did just that, However I can only site 2 recent Documentaries where that is stated, "Massive Engines" hosted by Chris Barrie (Discovery Channel) & the dig done at Rise Hill Cumbria on Time Team where they excavated a "Navvie" camp.

Now what would you say to converting 25,000 klm of Russian Rail gauge to German Standard in 20 days?
using 1000 x 30 man crews.
That was the German's own estimate.
page 21 : https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol6no4/pdf/v06i4a07p.pdf

another article which which be worth a browse : http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html

You forget, the Germans employed over 900 foreign Labour Battalions, their own RAD Battalions & Hundreds of Thousands of Soviet Prisoners of War, just for these & other various construction duties.

btw, there is some footage of Germans allegedly ripping up the Treblinka Rail line or some such nonsense shown on the "Holocaust" episode of BBC the World at War series & sited/queried here, IIRC, this is actually recycled footage they showed in another episode, the mad scramble out of the Soviet Union at wars end, it's the bit where you see an enormous hook mounted at the end of a flat car ripping up track & is shown as proof of the alleged destruction of evidence for the "Holocaust", what it actually is, is a hook taken from a Bergepanzer III Recovery Tank, mounted to the flat car & used to rip up track in the face of the advancing Russian Army, destroying lines of communication & supply routes is sop, nothing more.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby ginger » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:47 pm)

Wahrheit -

I was surprised by your comment -

"And as the Reinhard(t) camps are said to have went to death-camp functioning in early 1942, the gauge difference would not be present."

Who said the Reinhard(t) camps "are said to have went to death-camp functioning in early 1942."? And as Kiwichap pointed out, how in the world did the Nazis change the railroad gauge so quickly?

The Wanssee Conference clearly set out a plan to evacuate the Jews from the General Government to the East . The Nazis at Wanssee were optimistic that after their conquests in the Soviet territory, the worst obstacles to their plan were gone. The evacuation of the Jews was virtually a fait accompli.

I wonder now why the gauge of the railroads was not discussed at Wanssee. If the Jews were to be deported on trains, the Russian gauge would be a major obstacle to the passage East.

Thank you though for your point on the lack of Soviet trains in Nazi control.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:02 pm)

ginger wrote:Who said the Reinhard(t) camps "are said to have went to death-camp functioning in early 1942."? And as Kiwichap pointed out, how in the world did the Nazis change the railroad gauge so quickly?


I suggest you read more about the AR camps if you do not know their start-times.

Please also look at the other evidence presented in this thread, which shows that the Nazis DID change the railroad gauge, and at an efficient pace. Before Belzec began its operations, nearly 25,000 miles of railway track was re-gauged. By 1942, ALL Polish areas would be completely regauged to the German standard (thus, no transfer points at the AR camps).

Also, we know that some German Jews were indeed deported into the occupied Soviet territories (Riga & Minsk), without the rail changeover deal that you are alleging took place at the AR camps.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:08 pm)

In 1941 all German troops returning from russia for holidays or reassignment had to be deloused at stations along the GG border. From private to field marshall.

Presumably they did not get deloused going the reverse direction, ie Germany to Russia as Germany was not a known typhus area.
In the same way you would not expect German Jews to need to be deloused. Many of the Polish ghettos were highly typhus infected, hence a delousing would be expected, even if moving from west to east, in any hypothetical resettlement program.

To highly excitable imaginations this process might feel a little like execution by steam chambers.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:56 pm)

jnovitz wrote:Presumably they did not get deloused going the reverse direction, ie Germany to Russia as Germany was not a known typhus area.
In the same way you would not expect German Jews to need to be deloused. Many of the Polish ghettos were highly typhus infected, hence a delousing would be expected, even if moving from west to east, in any hypothetical resettlement program.


Delousing is not what is being discussed, rather the act of switching trains because (apparently) the Germans were unable to regauge the tracks. From Ginger's OP:

What I know about this topic comes from Wikipedia - which I looked up because a revisionist theorized that the gauge of the train tracks from Poland to the Soviet Union changed from a standard gauge to what is called Russian gauge. Thus to deport, or evacuate, the Jews from Poland to the newly conquered East, they all had to board a second train at the eastern border of Poland in order to continue East.

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby jnovitz » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:09 pm)

Its a bit like how parts of the Apollo mission were allegedly dependent on the width of a horse's arse.

The story as told to me, was that some parts of the Apollo rockets were built underground and transported by rail, the width of the rail tracks was determined by the width of a horse's rear end because originally trains were dual steam or horse drawn.

In the same way originally the delousing border was chosen as soldiers needed to change trains anyway because of the gauge, this continued even after the original reasoning no longer applied

bless

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Re: Russian gauge and the Holocaust

Postby Kiwichap » 9 years 9 months ago (Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:54 am)

Mr Nobody, I'm not saying the Germans did not re-rail the Russian lines. Sure they probably did, but not 80 miles in 8 hrs. Delivery of the rails is the slow part. To rip up one rail, and hammer it down 12" closer could work. You would need thousands of folk spread out over 80 miles, laying 10 miles an hour. Bridges and tunnels would be fun. Perhaps they did lay 10 miles a day, on eight different lines.

Even so, eventually there is the gauge change.
There was no holocaust.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


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