Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

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Lamprecht
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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:40 pm)

Greg Gerdes:
Dodging questions isn’t allowed on CODOH Warheit.
Have you gave the name of one person, with proof, that was deported from Treblinka to Soviet territory?
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Gébé Tremblay » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:03 pm)

Wahrheit wrote:So all self-incriminating testimonies are to be discounted? Are you serious?


Why all ? We are on only one case ain't we ?

Self-incriminating coocoos that point to where the bodies should be found and where nothing is found. No names, no bodies, no weapons, no victims, no crime.

Are YOU serious ?

Then forget about the names and tell us where are the bodies !

You mean to tell us that a criminal today can't hide a single body but in 1945 someone hid 6 million ?!!

Who's not serious here ?

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Bradley » 9 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:57 pm)

I think Wahrheit's question is a perfectly reasonable one to ask.
I cannot answer it. Here's the rub.
"No one" cares about the Treblinka Question while "everyone" cares about the Auschwitz Question.
Why do you think that is?
It's my view that the Auschwitz Question goes to the heart of America culture and the culture of the West.
That's why you can be prosecuted, imprisoned, and what is worse for our intellectuals, "sent to Coventry"
for asking it.
The ADL will not do a frothing jig over the Treblinka Question.
Hillel will not distribute Manuals for "action" to student journalists to fight against asking the
Treblinka Question.
There are an endless number of questions about WWII that revisionists will never be able to answer
and we should be willing to say so.
Questions that revisionists cannot answer are not really the issue.
Questions that revisionists are not allowed to answer without facing ruin and/or prison are the issue for me.
Not eveyone's cup of tea, but it is mine.

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Gébé Tremblay » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:16 am)

The question is valid, but he is not asking it to the right people.

To get the answer he would have to first get the names of the ones who have been sent there and then make a search in Russia. They were communists and were sent to Russia under german occupation. So when the germans retreated and the Red Army took over, they stayed over there. Were trapped under soviet rule until 1990. There was no way to do this search before that.

His question is valid, but he will have to do the searching by himself, because the exterminationists dont want to find them for sure.

A fact to take into consideration is that there was also a movement of anti-communist people going out of Russia when the Red Army was taking over from the germans and those people were finding refuge in the... GERMAN CAMPS !. We have lots of those in Canada, where they emmigrated after the war. They dont mention ANY gas chambers of course.

Ain't that strange that the "racist nazis" had refugee camps for foreigners while they were gasing others ? They even had schools in those refugee camps, teaching in their OWN language !

A fine example is canadian Veira Vike-Freiberga that was close to win the EU president post last november.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaira_V%C4 ... -Freiberga

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:58 am)

Bradley wrote:I think Wahrheit's question is a perfectly reasonable one to ask.


Thank you, Bradley.


There are an endless number of questions about WWII that revisionists will never be able to answer
and we should be willing to say so.
Questions that revisionists cannot answer are not really the issue.
Questions that revisionists are not allowed to answer without facing ruin and/or prison are the issue for me.
Not eveyone's cup of tea, but it is mine.


I certainly agree that no body should be fined or locked up for asking questions.

However, I think that when revisionists begin challenging parts of the traditional history, they should follow the general principles of the scientific and historical methods that have long been in place. When someone makes an allegation, they must provide positive proof for that claim. One cannot simply negate one usage, without proving a coherent alternative, at least in a workable form. Many posters in this thread seek to avoid the burden of proof, likely because it challenges their Weltanschauung, which is simply to "deny, deny, deny."

Carlo Mattogno seemingly understands this point, or he otherwise wouldn't have even bothered with his chapter on 'Transit Camp Treblinka'. That it comes up well short of substantial evidence is besides the point. In regards to European censorship, both Juergen Graf and Carlo Mattogno have been to various Holocaust archives, were allowed to research, and came away without much in the way of evidence for the transit camp allegation. They had the opportunity to find the answer, but were unable to.

Also, in comparison to the Auschwitz-Birkenau challenge, I believe that this is a much more reasonable request. When we look at how the gassing operations were said to have run at Birkenau, the deportees were brought in, the unfit-for-labour were kept aside, and eventually were channeled into the gas chambers. No names were kept in this process, and it is extremely unlikely that the various guards actually recognized the victims (who came from across Europe). All 'proof' of a name disappeared with their death.

For the Treblinka challenge, names were also unlikely to be kept by the Nazis (such is why I backed away from names, but just wish for transports), but the victims would still be alive. They would still have a voice. They could publish post-war diaries. They could flock to other countries. They could smuggle their story out somehow. We are looking at some 800,000 people, a figure in the same range as those said to have been gassed at A-B, but the Treblinka figures are people who can still make waves.

I believe this is a fundamental question for revisionists to answer, for if no transit camp evidence/proof can be shown, there must be a recognition that all the evidence for homicidal gassings (no matter how flimsy) wins out. Does this prove gassings in and of itself? No, but it does build the necessary surrounding structure in which gassings become the more acceptable option, based upon the amount of evidence.

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:03 pm)

Gébé Tremblay wrote:His question is valid, but he will have to do the searching by himself, because the exterminationists dont want to find them for sure.


The "exterminationists" don't want to find them? Jewish families would certainly wish to find them.

Also, names do exist as retold by survivors. See here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -with.html

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby GurtKerstein » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:20 pm)

Also, names do exist as retold by survivors. See here: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -with.html


Thanks for providing a link to this fantasy story. It is no more reliable than any of the other Holocaust fantasy stories. I sure hope this is not what you consider "proof". Just to point a few:

Everyone is undressed there. The women, already naked, are seated on a long bench and their hair is cut off. This is accomplished by about 40 barbers.


Once again, the author is describing a simple life saving delousing process and then adding the usual sinister gas chamber twist. Why separate men from women? Why shave their hair prior to gassings?

The bodies are then piled onto stretchers and carried to the oven, where they are flung into the fire and burned.


Major blunder. According to the official Treblinka story, there were no crematories in Treblinka. He mentions the ovens again and again. This is not something that he could have just misremembered. This is just pure fantasy and proof that he "didn't get his story right", much like the Apple girl story.

Quite often, one or another of the victims was struck on the head with a whip or rifle butt and collapsed in a stream of blood.


Not quite sure why the Germans/kapos would bother whipping and killing the doomed Jews for fun minutes before they were about to be gassed anyway... how demonic.

The graves could never be emptied entirely, because blood mixed with water accumulated at the bottom. Motorized pumps were set up to draw it out. However, they could never manage to drain the bottom few meters, and so the graves were simply covered over.


I did not know that people who were gassed also bleed such large quantities of blood that pumps are needed to drain their blood in order to "conceal all evidence". What a ridiculous story. If indeed there was blood, there is no doubt it would be absorbed by the soil.


I could go on and on, Warheit. This "memoir" is not even worth my time. These fantasy stories are no more reliable than UFO abduction stories. The fact that you have another "survivor" describing a delousing process and then adding the gas chamber twist does not "corroborate" the fantasy of another "survivor". It would be considered corroboration if (a) both survivors were completely sequestered from each other, (b) they were not coached as it has been the case with most eyewitness testimonies, (c) did not know about the official narrative and (d) came up with an identical description of events. None of the above requirements are met, therefore you cannot claim "corroboration", especially when their stories contain so many implausibilities and absurdities.
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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby disillusioned » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:18 pm)

Warheit:

You are asking someone to disprove something that never happened. The mantra isn't "deny deny deny" its "demand demand demand" As in demand some proof that this stuff actually happened! Reasonable, acceptable proof. A million falsified memories does not constitute proof. It has been shown over and over again that virtually every one of these recollections could not have happened. Or these recollections really don't prove anything. They prove people were separated never to rejoin again. They prove people were deloused. They prove people were taken away on trains. Thats all they prove and all of those things are easily reconciled with camp records and other sources.

Where the lie starts and the disbelief begins is where suddenly we abandon normal standards of proof to support the ridiculous claim that people were gassed by the millions. Think about what is being posited here, Warheit! Its insane! It didn't happen.

Its not "deny" its "DEMAND" as in we demand answers! PROOF! Just because its been stated millions of times across decades doesn't make it any more true then when it was just war propoganda. The burden of actually proving this nonsense happened has never shifted from where it started.

That is where we are as "Revisionsists." We are more than happy to accept that war crimes (by today's standards) certainly happened on all sides and that there very well could have been an incident where some 10000 people were shot to death by Germans. All we are asking is that reasonable evidence is presented to show that this happened.

What you will not be able to do, and it is the revisionist's firm belief that this is so, is prove that there was a systematic genocidal program against the Jews. There was no such thing. The German people have paid enough for this lie. I don't want my children growing up listening to this nonsense!

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:57 pm)

GurtKerstein wrote:Thanks for providing a link to this fantasy story. It is no more reliable than any of the other Holocaust fantasy stories. I sure hope this is not what you consider "proof". Just to point a few:


I only cited it to provide you with actual names of people who attended the camp, apparently because you were too lazy to research yourself, or even attempt a quick google search.

Anyway, the 'errors' you try to point out actually are very weak.

1) Your disagreement with the shaving of hair prior to gassings.
2) Your harping on the use of the term "ovens" for a pyre, which from context is quite clearly what he is talking about. The term is also seen in several other AR testimonies, as well as for open-air pits used in the East.
3) Your disbelief in harsh and brutal measures used by camp personnel prior to the victims entrance into the gas chamber.
4) Your disbelief that dead corpses bleed (although the water table was likely more at work here than human blood for what the witness saw).

All in all, these are not things that prove a 'hoax', or a 'fantasy' on the part of a witness. Personal incredulity can only get you so far ("I can't believe this is possible, so it can't be true").

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:06 pm)

disillusioned wrote:You are asking someone to disprove something that never happened.


Let me stop you right there. I am not asking anyone to disprove anything; I am asking for someone to prove, or provide evidence for the assertion that Treblinka was a transit camp. If I asked someone to disprove gassings, I would look for Mattogno like arguments over mass graves, cremation science, etc...this is a distinct topic from that. I am asking for positive evidence for the thesis, proposed by all serious revisionists, that Treblinka was a transit camp, used to resettle hundreds of thousands of people.

My point about "deny deny deny" was the reflex that some posters are showing to this question. Instead of actually providing positive evidence, they remain in their trenches and simply focus on negative evidence. This does not cut it, and it cannot prove the resettlement thesis. If revisionism wants to be treated seriously, it's going to have to follow the historical and scientific standards for proof, and the necessary burdens.

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby GurtKerstein » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:44 pm)

Warheit:

You seem to believe what you want to believe.

1) Your disagreement with the shaving of hair prior to gassings.


Yes, shaving hair is more consistent with delousing than gassings. Also, you didn't answer why they would separate the genders. Did they really want to save them their dignity while they undressed but on the other hand beating them and sending them to a gas chamber? How considerate but then how demonic. It simply doesn't add up in the context of gassings.

2) Your harping on the use of the term "ovens" for a pyre, which from context is quite clearly what he is talking about. The term is also seen in several other AR testimonies, as well as for open-air pits used in the East.


Once again, it seems you hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe. I don't see how anyone could confuse ovens with a grill made of railway tracks. And here is another quote that makes it abundantly clear that he is referring to "ovens", not funeral pyres: "Their sacred bodies were heaped on stretchers and thrown into the infernal fires." You cannot throw bodies "into" funeral pyres. The official story is that the bodies were heaped on the grill before the fire was set, not the other way around. This is not just harping, this is just showing that this is a made up story by someone who did not know the official version of the Treblinka story.

3) Your disbelief in harsh and brutal measures used by camp personnel prior to the victims entrance into the gas chamber.


There's no question that kapos treated deportees brutally. However, that would be more consistent with hurrying the delousing process rather than gassings. As I said, there is no point beating someone to a pulp if he's supposed to be gassed anyway in a few minutes. That would only slow down the process since it would slow the lines to the gas chambers.

4) Your disbelief that dead corpses bleed (although the water table was likely more at work here than human blood for what the witness saw).


Would you care to explain how gassed bodies bleed such large quantities that it is necessary to use a pump to conceal evidence? Or how they bleed at all after being gassed?
Last edited by GurtKerstein on Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby GurtKerstein » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:03 pm)

If revisionism wants to be treated seriously, it's going to have to follow the historical and scientific standards for proof, and the necessary burdens.


Funny. You should apply this first to your claims of genocide before asking revisionists to do so. The Holocaust story relies upon the sham Nuremberg tribunals, "confessions" and "testimonies" in the framework of a defeated Germany where the victors of the war get to write history uninhibited. Not one ounce of scientific or forensic standards were ever applied to the Holocaust story, not to mention that it is protected by law, as if scientific truth should be protected by law. We are not the ones who are turning the scientific method on its head. It's you. Not to mention when revisionists such as Germar Rudolf use scientific methods they are sent to jail... Orwell would have turned over in his grave.

As Mattogno said "revisionism is a process of history writing applied by every historian in every branch of history with the exception of the Holocaust". I don't think I could have put it better.
The Emperor cannot see the cloth, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing stupid; his ministers do the same. A child in the crowd calls out that the Emperor is wearing nothing. The Emperor holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:39 pm)

GurtKerstein:
Did they really want to save them their dignity while they undressed but on the other hand beating them and sending them to a gas chamber? How considerate but then how demonic. It simply doesn't add up in the context of gassings.
It would be consistent with the fake showers assertion.

GurtKerstein:
There's no question that kapos treated deportees brutally. However, that would be more consistent with hurrying the delousing process rather than gassings. As I said, there is no point beating someone to a pulp if he's supposed to be gassed anyway in a few minutes. That would only slow down the process since it would slow the lines to the gas chambers.
On the contrary - if someone really hated a person, or group of people, I don't think them being sent to their death would make any difference.
Actually, it makes more sense to beat people about to be gassed than laborers since injuries just make working more difficult and the person less efficient, it doesn't matter what working condition they're in if you're gassing them.
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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby GurtKerstein » 9 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:20 pm)

It would be consistent with the fake showers assertion.


Not really since the author himself says that the genders were combined before being sent to Camp II and that they were packed together in the "showers". Why not "play the game" to the end?

Once again, we are in the twilight zone of the holocaust where everything can have a double meaning, no evidence remains and witnesses' testimonies are handled with kid gloves (look how the blogger preempt by explaining the glaring inconsistencies) and are never cross examined. Whoever wants to believe will believe.
Plenty of Holocaust memoirs have already been exposed as frauds, massive exaggerations and fantasies, yet "this one" must be taken at face value because it is "corroborated" by other fantasy tellers.

So we go back to square one: I am willing to become a true believer if an independent team of forensic scientists confirm the existence of human remains of one tenth of the alleged victims.
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Re: Transit Camp Treblinka Challenge: One Person, with Proof

Postby J William » 9 years 11 months ago (Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:57 am)

Warhheit wrote:
"However, I think that when revisionists begin challenging parts of the traditional history, they should follow the general principles of the scientific and historical methods that have long been in place. When someone makes an allegation, they must provide positive proof for that claim. One cannot simply negate one usage, without proving a coherent alternative, at least in a workable form. Many posters in this thread seek to avoid the burden of proof, likely because it challenges their Weltanschauung, which is simply to "deny, deny, deny".

I think this statement makes the entire revisionist quest legitimate. In the above statement one assumes "traditional history" is true with no forensic or documentary proof for extermination. The same set of standards Warheit imposes on revisionists, "When someone makes an allegation, they must provide positive proof for that claim", is all that I would request from the traditionalists. Let's be consistent, let's use the same set of rules for all parties. Instead of asking revisionists for proof to prove the exterminationalists wrong show us proof that things did happen and are physically possible as alleged. And not by interpretation, code words and reading between the lines but by actual forensic and documentary proof. So in effect I agree with your statement on the burden of proof. I assume most revisionists are interested in the TRUTH no matter where it lies.


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