The SANITY Test!

[blake121666]

And yet we're told that ordinary rooms were deloused with Zyklon-B from time to time. What is your explanation for this fact Breker? You've obviously overstated the explosion danger. I suspect the danger of handling gassed corpses to be overstated as well. Ships in the early twentieth century used cyanide gas for rodenticide and people of course handled the gassed rodents.

EDIT: BTW, someone ought to inform Dr. Robert Faurisson that the term is "disinfest" (killing macroscopic animals such as lice, rats, and even badgers) not "disinfect" (killing microorganisms such as bacteria). I noticed that he typically uses the wrong (and misleading) terminology. I understand that he is not a native English speaker but he should use the correct terminology and stop using the misleading terminology. It's very disconcerting to see him continually unintentionally mislead in this way.

[Dresden]

Fritz Berg said:

"Could Breker explain why he believes "railroad delousing tunnels" would have had any problems at all? Be specific"

Breker said:

"The same problems that the alleged converted crematorium would have created, which has been covered over and over at his forum. Not to mention how these trains would have been unloaded, where the corpses would be taken, and how they would be disposed of"

Fritz Berg said:

"My challenge to Breker to "be specific" about any problems that railroad delousing tunnels might have had in their possible use for mass murder is totally unanswered"

Well, I wouldn't say that it went "totally unanswered"; for example:

Breker asks:

".....how these trains would have been unloaded, where the corpses would be taken, and how they would be disposed of"

Three good questions.

Instead of asking "us" where the problems would be in "Mass Murder by Tunnel", why don't you walk us through a "practice run", and tell us how it would/could "e-a-s-i-l-y" be done.

Let's see if you can pass the "SANITY Test", Mr. Berg!

I'll start you off:

A locomotive with fifty cattle cars behind it, each carrying 100 Jews, pulls into the "disinfestation yard";

You can take it from here Mr. Berg, while keeping the following questions in mind:

1. How many cars can fit in the tunnel?

2. How much Zyclon B would be necessary?

3. How long would one gassing take?

4. What are some of the logistical/time/practical advantages of the "Tunnel" over the alleged Auschwitz gas chamber that would make it "e-a-s-y" by comparison?
(Don't forget, the whole operation has to be "e-a-s-y", not just the gassing).

5. Breker's questions:

".....how these trains would have been unloaded, where the corpses would be taken, and how they would be disposed of"

Thank you, Mr. Berg!

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Breker asked and Steve F. repeated the following questions:

".....how these trains would have been unloaded, where the corpses would be taken, and how they would be disposed of"

There are countless ways in which these problems could have been dealt with. The corpses could have been dumped in an isolated ravine and/or buried in pits, or been brought to a lime-kiln and burned in large masses there, or burned in large incinerators. The possibilities are endless. The corpses could have been handled the same way in which masses of bodies were dealt throughout the war from any number of causes such as Allied bombing, or whatever--nearby, or far away on the other side of German-occupied Europe. It is NOT pleasant work; it is hideous work--but, to insist that the disposal of thousands of corpses represented some kind of insurmountable problem is totally stupid. What do you think happens in wartime? What do you think is happening right now in the Middle East? Have you been living so long in the Land of Oz that you have lost all grasp of the real world? Faurisson and his devoted followers certainly have!

If one wants to remove the clothing and possessions of victims, one can do that also if one has the workers and the time to spend. One can simply burn or bury everything--or, one can strip the corpses and remove jewelry and gold teeth. Take your pick.

For many reasons, the corpses are NOT "saturated" with cyanide gas at all--contrary to another one of Faurisson's thoroughly stupid claims. During the venting phase in a likely delousing tunnel, warm air is blown by a powerful fan through distribution ducts and through the cattle cars filled with dead bodies to remove cyanide gas. The corpses themselves cool off s-l-o-w-l-y, as all corpses do, as I explained in my essay reply to Faurisson's challenge so that they are in effect "self-venting" to a great extent because they remain well above the boiling point of liquid cyanide. See: http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html Whatever handling is later required by workers to remove corpses from railroad cars can be done with gloves and protective clothing--even gas masks although they are not likely to be needed at all.

The time needed to kill the victims in any batch of cattle cars is only about one hour; half-an-hour to kill the victims as the cyanide is blown through the tunnel and ductwork by the powerful fan--and another half-hour to vent the cattle cars and tunnel with the same fan using fresh air. But the time can be adjusted as needs vary--perhaps longer, perhaps shorter.

How long will it take to kill fifty car loads of Jews? That depends on the size of the tunnel. Bigger is faster.

No doubt, for some people my explanations will simply never sink in which is why I have called this thread a "Sanity Test." Some people will get it and pass the test; other people including Faurisson, Leuchter, Zuendel, Toeben and Butz will NEVER get it. They are hopeless. They will remain blindly devoted to Faurisson's sweet lullaby. Some people can become "engineers"--other people are engineers in name only.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
There were NO "limited gassings!" There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!
Please visit and support generously: http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com

[Breker]

Let's do this first.
We see that Mr. Berg has failed to identify a single "big" execution gas chamber, we rather thought that would be the case. Well, he did mention that one gas chamber that could have accommodated one more chair. His definition of 'big".

I was quite specific. If you do not wish read the endless posts at this site (many from your own hand, Mr Berg) attesting to the problems of the "Holocaust" gas chambers in general, then that is your shabby little problem. And I did point how your ludicrous gassing by train tunnel presents additional problems.

And we do find it most odd that the following, which I specifically cited, are in distinct disagreement about your non-explosive HCN silliness. Once again here they are.

The Chemical Engineering Department at Edinburgh University

The Hazardous Substance Fact Sheet from the State of New Jersey

The United States Centers for Disease Control and Preve...

The Swedish Environmental Protection Agency

The U.S. Committee on Hazardous Substances in the Laboratory

Yes one can blow hot air around to assist in the cyanide release, as recommended by the Zyklon manufacturer, that is hardly the same as gassing massive numbers of people one flight below very hot & flaming crematory ovens, as the fraud alleges. We think Mr. Berg forgot about that one.

In the alleged gas chambers, if they were fact of course, there would have necessarily been huge concentrations of HCN. Remember Mr. Berg it's said that thousands of people were gassed at one time in a very short time span of a few minutes, a whole of HCN would have been required. Forgot about that one too. Your concentration argument, explodes in your face.

Mr Berg it is you who is frustrated, your bullying tone gives you away.

Later I will address the "insanity"of Mr Berg's gassing by train tunnel scenario that he has posted.
B.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Breker is back for more. I was so worried that we might have lost him forever.

Although I did not identify any big execution chambers earlier, other than those that are already out there--I actually identified a great many really big gas chambers where people have been killed such as underground mines and tunnels. Is it really necessary for me to identify specific mines or tunnels? That is a bit silly. Isn't it? Sane people do know it happens from time to time.

Breker wrote the following:

Yes one can blow hot air around to assist in the cyanide release, as recommended by the Zyklon manufacturer, that is hardly the same as gassing massive numbers of people one flight below very hot & flaming crematory ovens, as the fraud alleges. We think Mr. Berg forgot about that one.

Well, how is it all that different? Please explain why you think it might be different. Are the cyanide concentrations in air so different for killing people than for killing mice and other forms of disinfestation? The truth is they are NOT that different at all. Do your homework, Breker. Learn to walk before you try to run!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
There were NO "limited gassings!" There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!
Please visit and support generously:http://www.Gaschamberhoax.com

[blake121666]

Heck, you could possibly not have to handle corpses at all if you used cheap enough wooden boxcars (which in fact were used at the time). Gas the people in the tunnel, drive the boxcars to an incineration facility, detach the undercarriage and use a large forklift or even a crane of some type to load the payload (cheap and easily replaceable wooden boxcar and its contents) into the incinerator. If you wanted to save the boxcar, I suppose you could engineer some way to flip its contents out into the incinerator - this would probably be somewhat difficult though.

[Breker]

Blake, remember, Mr. Berg said "e-a-s-i-l-y".

Here he runs for cover.

Although I did not identify any big execution chambers earlier, other than those that are already out there. I actually identified a great many really big gas chambers where people have been killed such as underground mines and tunnels. Is it really necessary for me to identify specific mines or tunnels? That is a bit silly. Isn't it? Sane people do know it happens from time to time.

Now this is truly ripe. Mr. Berg insists on details, but when push comes to shove he has no details. And that leads him to change the subject to non-execution examples. What other big execution gas chambers are "already out there" Mr. Berg? None, and that has you frustrated.
We're not talking about "mine & tunnels", we're talking about big execution gas chambers, Mr. Berg. As are Dr. Faurisson & Fred Leuchter, who are being shown to be right again.

Well, how is it all that different? Please explain why you think it might be different. Are the cyanide concentrations in air so different for killing people than for killing mice and other forms of disinfestation? The truth is they are NOT that different at all. Do your homework, Breker. Learn to walk before you try to run!

So dumb and handled easily By Germar Rudolf. Mr. Berg's selective reading of Revisionist literature is obvious and embarrassing, Faurisson & Leuchter are right about Mr. Berg's plunge into a bizarre state. Things do happen to some over time we suppose.

Now, upon reading Mr. Berg's scenario on 'gassing Jews in trains & tunnels'. Do remember, all of what Mr. Berg says, according to him, could have been done "e-a-s-i-l-y"?

If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it. One of great Revisionists of our subject is now pushing a bizarre line that states 'It would have been easier to have gassed Jews in existing trains parked in existing tunnels than the other fraudulently concocted allegations', something like that.
The ludicrous mainstream fraud is bad enough, but now we have one the early and important Revisionists embarrassing himself.

Mr. Berg sees "ravines, "large incinerators", "burn or bury everything--or, one can strip the corpses and remove jewelry and gold teeth".
Plus, what he proposes creates the same ventilation problems as in the mainstream nonsense. "E-a-s-i-l-y"? Not at all, just bizarre.

In addition, Mr. Berg is becoming creepy paranoid. He is now claiming an ever expanding list of Revisionists, except himself of course, is hopeless and "insane". Too nutty for words. Some good people should just know when to hang it up.
B.

[blake121666]

I meant flipping the boxcars to remove only the corpses and keeping the boxcar would be somewhat difficult. All the rest would be trivially easy. It was already being done at the time (fumigating trains). BTW, boxcars are trivially handled as well:



As you said in another post (and I disagreed with then but have looked into it further and agree with now), nerve gas would have been a much better asphyxiant though. And Zulu had mentioned in another post that one could frog-march people into a room with hinged flooring that drops them into an incinerator. This sounds a bit tricky to me though given the heat of the incinerator below.

At any rate, the story we're given is absurd in every way. Singly cremating large masses of people is absurd on its face if your intent is to mass murder and dispose of them in large batches. And there is no evidence whatever of this being done at the AR camps.

[Breker]

I meant flipping the boxcars to remove only the corpses and keeping the boxcar would be somewhat difficult. All the rest would be trivially easy. It was already being done at the time (fumigating trains)

What happens to the corpses? How are the trains cleaned? Where does the Zyklon go, especially since it would still be releasing cyanide? Important war rail stock would be hopelessly tied up in this bizarre notion. Yes there was a war going on.
B.

[blake121666]

I meant flipping the boxcars to remove only the corpses and keeping the boxcar would be somewhat difficult. All the rest would be trivially easy. It was already being done at the time (fumigating trains)

What happens to the corpses? How are the trains cleaned? Where does the Zyklon go, especially since it would still be releasing cyanide?
B.

What? The corpses are in the boxcars that are sent through an industrial incinerator. You wouldn't use Zyklon-B for one thing; but even if you did, you are hugely overestimating its dangers.

EDIT: I must have replied before you posted the last sentence. Wood was plentiful; you'd reuse the undercarriage of course.

[Breker]

Where would these incinerator be? " Hugely overestimating its dangers".Excuse me, but it is highly toxic, I suggest you look up the toxicity of HCN, are you serious? Zyklon-B gave off cyanide for hours. What would you use then?
B

[Breker]

Blake:

I must have replied before you posted the last sentence. Wood was plentiful; you'd save the undercarriage of course.

So what? Mr. Berg is not saying that wood could be used on trains to kill Jews. Please read what he posted. Are we discussing your alternative possibility and not Mr. Berg's? Thanks.
B.

[blake121666]

Where would these incinerator be? " Hugely overestimating its dangers".Excuse me, but it is highly toxic, I suggest you look up the toxicity of HCN, are you serious? Zyklon-B gave off cyanide for hours. What would you use then?
B

You act as if no one knows how to handle toxic waste. The incinerator would have a high smokestack. The only glitch in this scheme as laid out would be making sure that people couldn't jump out of the boxcars while being gassed. You'd have to be able to lock them up. Or, I suppose you could just plop a relatively tight-fitting (slightly larger) boxcar upside down onto the loaded one and insert asphyxiant from it. You'd have to line things up; but I don't see that as a problem.

[Breker]

Where would these incinerator be? " Hugely overestimating its dangers".Excuse me, but it is highly toxic, I suggest you look up the toxicity of HCN, are you serious? Zyklon-B gave off cyanide for hours. What would you use then?
B

You act as if no one knows how to handle toxic waste. The incinerator would have a high smokestack. The only glitch in this scheme as laid out would be making sure that people couldn't jump out of the boxcars while being gassed. You'd have to be able to lock them up. Or, I suppose you could just plop a relatively tight-fitting (slightly larger) boxcar upside down onto the loaded one and insert asphyxiant from it. You'd have to line things up; but I don't see that as a problem.

Right and and people would have noticed these 'high smoke stacks' (and how many of these giants would be necessary?) and ask questions. Some secret. And we still have the Zyklon releasing its cyanide for a long time. Of course toxic waste can be handled, but how does one handle Zyklon in this situation? Your wood offering cannot be taken seriously.
The problem is that Mr. Berg claims that his scenario would have been much easier. We submit that it's getting more complicated by the minute here.
B.

[Dresden]

Breker asks:

".....how these trains would have been unloaded, where the corpses would be taken, and how they would be disposed of"

Fritz Berg said:

"The corpses could have been dumped in an isolated ravine and/or buried in pits....."

Don't forget that after you dump them in a ravine or bury them in pits, you have to dig them back up and cremate them and reinter them.

".....or been brought to a lime-kiln and burned in large masses there, or burned in large incinerators"

Large incinerators makes sense, but when we factor in unloading the cattle cars, the "e-a-s-y" starts wearing off.

"to insist that the disposal of thousands of corpses represented some kind of insurmountable problem is totally stupid"

I don't want to pretend to speak for Breker, but from what I gather by the context of his question is that he wants to know how it would be "e-a-s-y" to dispose of the (not thousands of corpses, but) hundreds of thousands of corpses.

"Have you been living so long in the Land of Oz that you have lost all grasp of the real world?"



"Faurisson and his devoted followers certainly have!"



"Whatever handling is later required by workers to remove corpses from railroad cars can be done with gloves and protective clothing--even gas masks although they are not likely to be needed at all"

That would be equivalent to clearing out the "gas chambers", so there is no advantage there.
It depends on how far the "incinerators" are from the train tracks whether or not the "Tunnel" would be "e-a-s-I-e-r" than the "chamber".

"The time needed to kill the victims in any batch of cattle cars is only about one hour"

Wouldn't that depend on how many cattle cars there were in the tunnel?

"How long will it take to kill fifty car loads of Jews? That depends on the size of the tunnel. Bigger is faster"

If the tunnel could hold three cars it would take about 17 hours.

Just like the alleged "gas chambers", the bottleneck would be at the cremation point.

"No doubt, for some people my explanations will simply never sink in which is why I have called this thread a "Sanity Test.""



"Some people will get it and pass the test; other people including Faurisson, Leuchter, Zuendel, Toeben and Butz will NEVER get it. They are hopeless. They will remain blindly devoted to Faurisson's sweet lullaby"

Thank you for the comedy relief, Mr. Berg.....I needed a laugh right about now!