The SANITY Test!

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:19 am)

"No advantage" is the correct phrase here, Mr. Steve. Mr. Berg is claiming that his scenario presents an advantage which clearly it does not, cannot. The method traditionally alleged, while easily refuted in all it's hilarity, would have been much better than the trains & tunnels scenario. Think of the infrastructure that would have been required to support this trains nonsense.
We can visualize Albert Speer now as the requests for trains, tunnels, and immense incinerators rolled in. It's all too preposterous for words.
"How long will it take to kill fifty car loads of Jews? That depends on the size of the tunnel. Bigger is faster"
We then have the problems with finding the right sized tunnels to fit the length of the various trains. "Advantage"? Just the opposite. :lol:
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Dresden » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:42 am)

The only reason the "Train Tunnel" seems "e-a-s-y" to Mr. Berg is because he is comparing a purposely designed gas chamber tunnel to the nonsensically "designed" alleged gas chambers.

If you compare the "Train Tunnel gas chambers for mass murder" to what the brilliant Germans could have devised in the camps; something similar but much more efficient than what Denier Bud suggested in his "Auschwitz" video, with the well designed gas chambers with conveyor belts and blast furnaces, then the "Train Tunnels" would be a laughingstock.....something only "Loony Luther" or "Harebrained Hans" would think of.

I'm not criticizing you, Mr. Berg; I think your "Tunnels" would probably be an improvement over what is alleged; but compared to what could have been devised.....forget about the "Tunnels".
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:46 am)

I think your "Tunnels" would probably be an improvement over what is alleged; but compared to what could have been devised.....forget about the "Tunnels".
We fail to see any improvement. We see a logistics nightmare.
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Atigun » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:47 am)

Breker wrote:We fail to see any improvement. We see a logistics nightmare.
B.


I think that besides the logistics, Mr. Berg has failed to take into account the onset of rigor mortis especially during cold weather. Trying to remove the clothing from a rapidly stiffening/full rigor corpse would constitute a bit of a...challenge, especially if the corpse had voided its bowel and bladder. In freezing weather, one would ultimately end up wrestling with a frozen corpsicle.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Moderator » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:09 pm)

Clean up the language in this thread or I will shut it down. Thanks.
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:41 pm)

Breker wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Breker wrote:Where would these incinerator be? " Hugely overestimating its dangers".Excuse me, but it is highly toxic, I suggest you look up the toxicity of HCN, are you serious? Zyklon-B gave off cyanide for hours. What would you use then?
B


You act as if no one knows how to handle toxic waste. The incinerator would have a high smokestack. The only glitch in this scheme as laid out would be making sure that people couldn't jump out of the boxcars while being gassed. You'd have to be able to lock them up. Or, I suppose you could just plop a relatively tight-fitting (slightly larger) boxcar upside down onto the loaded one and insert asphyxiant from it. You'd have to line things up; but I don't see that as a problem.
Right and and people would have noticed these 'high smoke stacks' (and how many of these giants would be necessary?) and ask questions. Some secret. And we still have the Zyklon releasing its cyanide for a long time. Of course toxic waste can be handled, but how does one handle Zyklon in this situation? Your wood offering cannot be taken seriously.
The problem is that Mr. Berg claims that his scenario would have been much easier. We submit that it's getting more complicated by the minute here.
B.


Germany had about half a dozen extremely large waste incinerators at the time. Here's a story about the one in Berlin built in 1895:

http://kreuzberged.com/2012/11/09/today-in-kreuzberg-october-1/

You'd only need one of course. This particular one in 1895 was built to handle 1000 tons a day.

I don't know why you keep mentioning the outgassing of Zyklon-B. If you were to use Zyklon-B you would blow hot air across it to release the cyanide. The hotter the air, the faster the cyanide release. For this particular application you'd want it to outgas pretty quickly I would say and so you would just blow very hot air over it. At any rate, it's not like the Zyklon-B itself would be thrown into the boxcars or anything. Why do you keep bringing up things that don't really matter? I don't think Zyklon-B to be the best thing to use in this situation anyway.

My wood offering cannot be taken seriously? Why is that? I'm sure making wood planks would not hinder the war effort. You are aware that the Germans were making Tiger tanks, V1 and V2 rockets, jet planes, ... etc later in the war for crying out loud - now THOSE are pretty resource intensive endeavors. Cutting down some trees and planing them into planks is nothing.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:38 pm)

Mr. Blake,
One incinerator? We recall that millions were alleged to have been cremated from trains coming from multiple directions, do you mean to say that every train would be directed to one incinerator? Not the least bit realistic. Talk about a bottleneck, talk about inefficient use of valuable war rail stock.
Then where do the remains go? All in the same place as well? Now that would be a sight.

Zyklon's cyanide lengthy release time does matter, extremely so. It is very deadly and it continues for hours, blowers or no blowers. Please read the literature on it, you are simply uninformed. It's not as if one can just blow some air on it for a few minutes and poof, no more cyanide. And then where does all this very active Zyklon go? There would necessarily be endangered staff all about, otherwise how does one remove the corpses? They would then have to wait for hours until they could enter the trains to remove the corpses. Even with gas masks the cyanide would be flowing freely and dangerously about the air. Not a better arrangement at all.

Then there would be enormous build ups of cyanide residue everywhere, not a nice substance to touch at all. So how would the trains be cleaned of all the residue for their next mission? It would be a very lengthy procedure. Again, no advantage over the claimed method.
Remember sir, we are arguing Mr. Berg's scenario, not yours, and he says that cyanide in Zyklon-B form could have been used as in the claimed method.
As for your wood, what are you saying about it? I assumed you meant fumes from wood burning producer gas kits that the Germans used. What then would your planks do?
We still nothing advantageous about the trains & tunnels scenario. Quite the opposite.
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:29 pm)

Breker wrote:Mr. Blake,
One incinerator? We recall that millions were alleged to have been cremated from trains coming from multiple directions, do you mean to say that every train would be directed to one incinerator? Not the least bit realistic. Talk about a bottleneck, talk about inefficient use of valuable war rail stock.
Then where do the remains go? All in the same place as well? Now that would be a sight.

Zyklon's cyanide lengthy release time does matter, extremely so. It is very deadly and it continues for hours, blowers or no blowers. Please read the literature on it, you are simply uninformed. It's not as if one can just blow some air on it for a few minutes and poof, no more cyanide. And then where does all this very active Zyklon go? There would necessarily be endangered staff all about, otherwise how does one remove the corpses? They would then have to wait for hours until they could enter the trains to remove the corpses. Even with gas masks the cyanide would be flowing freely and dangerously about the air. Not a better arrangement at all.

Then there would be enormous build ups of cyanide residue everywhere, not a nice substance to touch at all. So how would the trains be cleaned of all the residue for their next mission? It would be a very lengthy procedure. Again, no advantage over the claimed method.
Remember sir, we are arguing Mr. Berg's scenario, not yours, and he says that cyanide in Zyklon-B form could have been used as in the claimed method.
As for your wood, what are you saying about it? I assumed you meant fumes from wood burning producer gas kits that the Germans used. What then would your planks do?
We still nothing advantageous about the trains & tunnels scenario. Quite the opposite.
B.


Wow, Breker. You are not following along at all. The scenario I laid out for you is that:

1. You load people into wooden boxcars
2. You drive these boxcars into a fumigation tunnel.
3. (OPTIONAL) You lower a container over the boxcars to make sure no one is able to escape the boxcars (granted, this sounds kinda kooky, but you sure don't want people getting free of the boxcars)
4. You fumigate the boxcars the way that is done. Read Berg's literature. This is a standard and straightforward procedure. Any problems you conjecture have not been shown to be the case in actual practice.
5. You drive the boxcars to an incineration faciltity. One of which claims to have incinerated 1000 tons/day in the 19th century. For all I know, they had bigger and better ones in the 1940s. 1000 tons/day would be over 10,000 people a day capability. Surely you're not suggesting more capacity is needed.
6. You remove all locks and unhook the undercarriages from the boxcars to reuse.
7. You lift the whole boxcar into the incinerator.
8. You do whatever incinerator facilities do when incinerating (they assume toxic waste - that is why they have very long smokestacks, scrubbers, ... etc).
9. Drive away with your undercarriages, locks, ... etc to refit more boxcars for another run.

Now you have not addressed this scenario at all and keep going on as if I'm suggesting alleged Auschwitz gassing and handling procedures. I obviously am not. This is Berg's whole point. It doesn't take a genius to at least get his point. Please address it and not whatever you're thinking about.

I hope I don't have to remind you that fumigation was done routinely during the war. You're responding as if even the fumigation procedure itself is somehow impossible.

For all I know, you might even be able to skip the gassing tunnel step; I doubt it though. I doubt incineration to be that smooth and easy a procedure.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:41 am)

Mr. Blake, we believe it is you who is not following along. You completely dodged my points which make your cyanide laden wooden boxcars seem somewhat silly and certainly inefficient. You are not thinking your position through to it's logical extent.
And yes, trains were fumigated, but that does not present the enormous challenges that a scenario where trains and tunnels would be used for the murder of millions presents. Please do not try strawman arguments.

Here again, please keep up.
Mr. Blake,
One incinerator? We recall tht millions were alleged to have been cremated from trains coming from multiple directions, do you mean to say that every train would be directed to one incinerator? Not the least bit realistic. Talk about a bottleneck, talk about inefficient use of valuable war rail stock.
Then where do the remains go? All in the same place as well? Now that would be a sight.

Zyklon's cyanide lengthy release time does matter, extremely so. It is very deadly and it continues for hours, blowers or no blowers. Please read the literature on it, you are simply uninformed. It's not as if one can just blow some air on it for a few minutes and poof, no more cyanide. And then where does all this very active Zyklon go? There would necessarily be endangered staff all about, otherwise how does one remove the corpses? They would then have to wait for hours until they could enter the trains to remove the corpses. Even with gas masks the cyanide would be flowing freely and dangerously about the air. Not a better arrangement at all.

Then there would be enormous build ups of cyanide residue everywhere, not a nice substance to touch at all. So how would the trains be cleaned of all the residue for their next mission? It would be a very lengthy procedure. Again, no advantage over the claimed method.
Remember sir, we are arguing Mr. Berg's scenario, not yours, and he says that cyanide in Zyklon-B form could have been used as in the claimed method.
We still nothing advantageous about the trains & tunnels scenario. Quite the opposite.
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:59 pm)

Breker wrote:Mr. Blake, we believe it is you who is not following along. You completely dodged my points which make your cyanide laden wooden boxcars seem somewhat silly and certainly inefficient.


Can you point out this inefficiency?

Breker wrote:You are not thinking your position through to it's logical extent.
And yes, trains were fumigated, but that does not present the enormous challenges that a scenario where trains and tunnels would be used for the murder of millions presents. Please do not try strawman arguments.


What trouble is it to have the trains full of people while being fumigated? Please point out your exact trouble with this.

Breker wrote:Here again, please keep up.
Mr. Blake,
One incinerator? We recall tht millions were alleged to have been cremated from trains coming from multiple directions, do you mean to say that every train would be directed to one incinerator? Not the least bit realistic. Talk about a bottleneck, talk about inefficient use of valuable war rail stock.
Then where do the remains go? All in the same place as well? Now that would be a sight.
B.


One incinerator would be sufficient; but you could use any and all large incinerators available. You could of course use any large blast furnace as well. What do you mean by "Now that would be a sight"? Can you think of a better sight for the remains of dead people? Exacty what sight do you have in mind? Is incinerator waste beyond your imagination for acceptable "sights"? Germans couldn't have mass murdered people because it wouldn't look good, eh?

Breker wrote:
Zyklon's cyanide lengthy release time does matter, extremely so. It is very deadly and it continues for hours, blowers or no blowers. Please read the literature on it, you are simply uninformed. It's not as if one can just blow some air on it for a few minutes and poof, no more cyanide. And then where does all this very active Zyklon go?
B.


It is you who is "simply uninformed". That is exactly the process used for Zyklon-B. Warm air outgasses the cyanide from the pellets - and poof, the cyanide is blown into the fumigation areas - in this case, boxcars. What you do with the pellets afterwards is what you always do with the pellets after a fumigation. What difference is there in this respect from any standard fumigation?

Breker wrote:
There would necessarily be endangered staff all about, otherwise how does one remove the corpses? They would then have to wait for hours until they could enter the trains to remove the corpses. Even with gas masks the cyanide would be flowing freely and dangerously about the air. Not a better arrangement at all.
B.


Any staff would be no more endangered than in a routine train fumigation. You wouldn't even need to go very near the boxcars; but as Berg has pointed out, bodies would not be saturated. The dangers are actually fairly slight; but I don't even have any staff actually even entering the boxcars in this proposed scenario.

Breker wrote:
Then there would be enormous build ups of cyanide residue everywhere, not a nice substance to touch at all. So how would the trains be cleaned of all the residue for their next mission? It would be a very lengthy procedure. Again, no advantage over the claimed method.
Remember sir, we are arguing Mr. Berg's scenario, not yours, and he says that cyanide in Zyklon-B form could have been used as in the claimed method.
We still nothing advantageous about the trains & tunnels scenario. Quite the opposite.
B.


I have no need to clean trains in this scenario. I'm taking a crane, picking up the whole boxcar, and placing it into a blast furnace. There is no cleaning in this scenario. That is not a "very lengthy procedure" at all. You are not following along, Breker.

There might be some waste to accommodate the flooring for the load; but this is standard for cargo that is to be lifted in a wood crate (boxcar). I guess you could design a wood truss system under the floor and so the boxcar would essentially have a false bottom. This could be minimized by using a giant forklift type device that would give support while placing the boxcar into the furnace. You'd of course keep the undercarriage and locks or anything else for reuse.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:54 pm)

Can you point out this inefficiency?
Your process would be prohibitively slow and costly with the building of these wooden contraptions, dumping them in incinerators only to build new ones, fitting them to the trains, etc, etc. Keep reading, more examples follow.

What trouble is it to have the trains full of people while being fumigated? Please point out your exact trouble with this.
Your strawman is a different argument, not the same as the requirements of gassing millions of people in manner that would be more efficient than the alleged method.

One incinerator would be sufficient; but you could use any and all large incinerators available. You could of course use any large blast furnace as well. What do you mean by "Now that would be a sight"? Can you think of a better sight for the remains of dead people? Exacty what sight do you have in mind? Is incinerator waste beyond your imagination for acceptable "sights"? Germans couldn't have mass murdered people because it wouldn't look good, eh?
One incinerator located where? You avoided my point about numerous trains coming from numerous directions, using numerous rail lines which would require the building additional rail lines to accommodate the redirection of all these trains to one point which could reach this one incinerator. And then the jam up as the trains attempt to return from this one point which would be hopelessly backed-up with incoming trains, etc, etc. Sir, it's just the utmost in waste and inefficiency.

And then you think that millions of human remains could be buried in one site which would necessarily be a veritable Grand Canyon or Mt. Everest depending how it was done. It would require numerous burial sites for millions. And yes it would have mattered to the Germans, it was all supposed to be secret, remember that?
It is you who is "simply uninformed". That is exactly the process used for Zyklon-B. Warm air outgasses the cyanide from the pellets - and poof, the cyanide is blown into the fumigation areas - in this case, boxcars. What you do with the pellets afterwards is what you always do with the pellets after a fumigation. What difference is there in this respect from any standard fumigation?

We suggest you read the actual literature about Zyklon-B, I believe it can be found at the CODOH main site in the Samuel Crowell work. Yes, as I stated previously, blowing warm air was suggested as the preferred method for using the insecticide, but regardless, it still takes hours for the cyanide to be completely released, hence the danger takes a long time to subside. In fact, it was recommended that structures not be re-entered for 24 hours. Yes, you are uninformed

Any staff would be no more endangered than in a routine train fumigation. You wouldn't even need to go very near the boxcars; but as Berg has pointed out, bodies would not be saturated. The dangers are actually fairly slight; but I don't even have any staff actually even entering the boxcars in this proposed scenario.
Wrong again. The train tunnel fumigators could wait until the cyanide has dissipated, there was no time constraint. Remember, you and Mr. Berg think that the trains and tunnels method would be a more efficient process than the one alleged which among other things mean that it had to be quicker. Your proposal would necessarily be snail slow.

I have no need to clean trains in this scenario. I'm taking a crane, picking up the whole boxcar, and placing it into a blast furnace. There is no cleaning in this scenario. That is not a "very lengthy procedure" at all. You are not following along, Breker.

There might be some waste to accommodate the flooring for the load; but this is standard for cargo that is to be lifted in a wood crate (boxcar). I guess you could design a wood truss system under the floor and so the boxcar would essentially have a false bottom. This could be minimized by using a giant forklift type device that would give support while placing the boxcar into the furnace. You'd of course keep the undercarriage and locks or anything else for reuse.
Too ridiculous to even respond to. This is hilariously similar to 'gas chambers' which dumped their load right into the crematorium' which was one of the early 'facts' used in anti-German propaganda.
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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:57 pm)

I think I've come up with a "death factory" plan that the "evil Nazis" could have implemented if they had so chosen to go that route:

1. Transport victims in steel caged boxcars that are covered a few feet at the bottom (so that they can hold ashes) to a custom-built moving grate incineration facility off a rail spur.
2. Unload these victim-filled steel cage boxcars on to a moving grate that transports them into a large blast furnace running at, say, 2000 F (bodies will cremate but the steel will not be affected)
3. Roll them along to where the bones are dumped into a grinder and ground.
4. Use a hydraulic shovel to shovel them back into the steel cage boxcar.
5. Transport this output to a landfill or wherever else.

But my posts above were meant to address the "gassing" issues and I think they are quite valid.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:39 pm)

Or have rails leading through a blast furnace. One could just back the train into a blast furnace. The bones would still have to be handled some way. This is much simpler than any gassing would entail.

This is the problem I always come across when I consider FP Berg's case: I always think up a better more easier way to achieve the same end when I try to flesh his idea out.

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:13 pm)

Why incinerators in the first place? Except if they had been homicidal incinerators as in blake's "death factory".

I've always thought that had the Nazis really decided to kill Europe's Jews en masse, they would not have tried to hide it in any way. They would very probably have stated it openly and unambiguously. They would have told their people why Europe's Jews had to be killed to the last one.

Other ideas for "death factories":

- Bring 6 million Jews in large camps with 4 barbwired fences but without any barracks, kitchens, gas chambers, crematories, etc. during a very cold winter day. Leave them outdoor all night long. And you'll find most of them frozen to death the next morning. Wait a few more days and the most resistant ones will be dead too.

- The homicidal drowing chambers: pump water in a room full of people to the roof, wait 5 or 10 minutes and everybody in the room will be dead. Then pump the water out of the chamber, or just let it flow below, to a storage pond (disguised as a swimming pool) and wait for the arrival of another convoy.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The SANITY Test!

Postby Dresden » 5 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:12 pm)

hermod said:

"I've always thought that had the Nazis really decided to kill Europe's Jews en masse, they would not have tried to hide it in any way. They would very probably have stated it openly and unambiguously. They would have told their people why Europe's Jews had to be killed to the last one"

No.....then they would have the whole world against them including most of the German people.

You seem to be going on the assumption that Germany was a Nation of monsters, but they weren't.

"Other ideas for "death factories":

- Bring 6 million Jews in large camps with 4 barbwired fences but without any barracks, kitchens, gas chambers, crematories, etc. during a very cold winter day. Leave them outdoor all night long. And you'll find most of them frozen to death the next morning. Wait a few more days and the most resistant ones will be dead too"


Sounds like Eisenhower's Death Camps; he didn't waste any time or money on swimming pools, orchestras and brothels!

"The homicidal drowing chambers: pump water in a room full of people to the roof, wait 5 or 10 minutes and everybody in the room will be dead. Then pump the water out of the chamber, or just let it flow below, to a storage pond (disguised as a swimming pool) and wait for the arrival of another convoy"

Or a big cage that would be lowered into a pool of water; same as your idea, just a little easier.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith


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