The SANITY Test!

[GurtKerstein]

kiwi:

1. The Germans did not have the technology to mass gas Jews on the scale of the imagined fable. Nobody has. (Just as well for Jews)

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? "Technology" for gassing millions of enemy soldiers was already in use in WWI and it didn't take much (of course it was not always effective and the enemy soldiers used gas masks but the "technology" certainly existed). If you cram thousands of people into a hermetically sealed room they will die even without poison gas. Just to show you that it doesn't take a not-yet-invented technology to kill masses of people, if indeed they had an intention to do so. The Germans most certainly did have many "technologies" to kill millions of people. The fact that there were so many camp survivors and the fact that no physical evidence remains of a gassing operation, is an indication that at no point did they have the intention to do so.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Creationist thinking is still out there! The quote Kiwichap gave earlier from fao.org does NOT say "Ya gotta dry each leaf before the gassing," or anything like that. It says:

have to be taken to r-e-d-u-c-e the amount of moisture- on leaves and stems.... Therefore, the plants should not be watered for one or more days before treatment.

Obviously, Kiwichap is incapable of comprehending the word: reduce. It does not mean the leaves have to be totally dry at all. "Reduce" is NOT synonymous with totally dry as Kiwichap wants to believe. Leaves of plants and trees contain lots of water all the time; that is one of the primary things they are made of, just like most living things.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

GurtKerstein:

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? "Technology" for gassing millions of enemy soldiers was already in use in WWI and it didn't take much (of course it was not always effective and the enemy soldiers used gas masks but the "technology" certainly existed). If you cram thousands of people into a hermetically sealed room they will die even without poison gas. Just to show you that it doesn't take a not-yet-invented technology to kill masses of people, if indeed they had an intention to do so. The Germans most certainly did have many "technologies" to kill millions of people. The fact that there were so many camp survivors and the fact that no physical evidence remains of a gassing operation, is an indication that at no point did they have the intention to do so.

GurtKerstein, I keep repeating this nonsense because I agree with Faurisson, Butz and others... I keep repeating this nonsense because Berg insists on regurgitating it ad infinitum.

GurtKerstein. You suggest gassing soldiers en-mass on the battlefield is akin to gassing Jews according to the fable. You suggest the technology to do so is similar.

Shooting artillery shells full of gas at an enemy in the open air GurtKerstein, is not technology. It is barbarism. Any fool can do that. A bullet in the back of the head will kill millions. The killing is not the issue here, that's the easy bit. As you say, put folk in a sealed room and eventually they will suffocate. Getting rid of the corpses would be easy too. (I wonder if the Germans considered that?)

Mass gassing with Hydrogen Cyanide is a different fish to fry. Once again, the killing would be easy, put folk in a sealed room and blast them with the gas. Barbarism. But then it all turns to custard.

Just think about 2000 Jews in a chamber that can barely contain them. Think about the door opening inwards. (I only add that to be funny - heh heh. its funny, because it's true). Now YOU have to stay alive while you process that mass of toxic waste. Forget about venting the gas. It is most firmly retained, right throughout the pile. Either as gas or as a solution of HCN in water. Just touching the skin of a dead Jew is a death sentence. Hydrogen Cyanide is most readily absorbed through dry skin. It hops-skips-and-jumps through wet skin.

I figure the technology to safely mass gas 2000 folk would require a building large enough for each person to be bound at least half a yard from the next. This is to assure when you vent the place, each corpse gets properly vented/dried. Then there would need to be a process where each corpse was washed with an agent to neutralize any cyanide present on their surface. Once this was done it may be safe to enter and remove them, being careful not to be contaminated by an involuntary burp, or fart, from the corpse. Yeah, a death belch could kill you.

There is no evidence the Germans had any such technology. Your suggestion GurtKerstein, suggests the Germans were barbarians, caring less for their own lives than road kill. If the Germans were barbarians and did gas 2000 Jews in Krema I according to the fable; I guarantee they only did it the once.

Americans spend thousands of dollars just gassing one victim. Do you not think they could save money by gassing all criminals on one day in one place. Nah, you won't save any money. You will just make a hard job harder.

The technology to safely mass gas people with HCN according to the fable does not exist; Anywhere. Nobody is doing it because it is too tricky and too ridiculous. Far cheaper and easier ways exist to do the job.

[Kiwichap]

Bergs argument is dwindling. His focus has been diverted. [Hey, things do become easier with practice]

Berg is REDUCED to arguing over dryness and HCN gassing, or fumigation. (See Berg, I do know how to use the word, 'reduce')

Thankfully, the internet is full of readily available information on fumigation techniques with HCN. There are also many government agencies posting their regulations concerning such.

Because information on specifically gassing people is relatively sparse (heh heh), we need to look at gassing other life forms, fruit, veges, plants etc.

The regulations are very clear. All objects must be dry. If not, objects should be dried before commencing gassing.

HCN has been surpassed by more useful chemicals when fumigating fruit, veges etc. The reason being, fruit, veges etc are a water objects, like people are. The residual amounts of toxin, plus the spoiling of the fruit by absorbing the toxin when not properly dry, is eliminated.

HCN is now mainly used, but hardly ever, in fumigating houses or other physically inanimate objects.

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Hey Kiwichap, since you think so much of your arguments--why not start your own thread with just those arguments. All you are doing here is making an ever bigger and bigger fool of yourself!

In the quote Kiwichap gave from a credible source about fumigation with cyanide, the word "dry" appeared nowhere. I dare say, the word "dry" does not appear in any "Fumigator's Handbook" either except for the one in Kiwichap's wild imagination.

Kiwichap actually posted the following:

The regulations are very clear. All objects must be dry. If not, objects should be dried before commencing gassing.

Kiwichap has yet to post any regulation from the vast internet archives, or anywhere else, where the words "dry" or even "dried" appear anywhere.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[GurtKerstein]

kiwi,

What you mean is that technology to dispose of masses of bodies did not exist in the alleged gas chambers, which is Faurisson's claim and I mostly agree with that. You'd expect something a bit more sophisticated from the Germans than an ordinary morgue room with holes in the ceiling.

You said the Germans didn't have the technology to kill millions of people and I disagree with that. As I said before, it doesn't take much technology to kill masses of people, especially if they are unarmed and are your prisoners. I can think of a dozen ways the germans could have killed inmates en mass with existing technologies and disposed of their bodies if indeed the diabolical character attributed to them is true.

Also, the fact that US prisons spend a lot of money and use a scientific safe method to kill a single inmate doesn't preclude the ability to gas a mass of prisoners in a less fancy and less safe way - this is where Faurisson's argument is weak and I agree with Berg on that.

But the fact that it's possible doesn't mean it was done as there is no evidence for that and in fact all the anecdotal evidence points to a lack of extermination policy and no gas chambers in Auschwitz.

[Kiwichap]

Well, Bergs argument has finally hit rock bottom. His argument now is :"GO AWAY!

FBP: Hey Kiwichap, since you think so much of your arguments--... why not go away?

Listen up pal; I was hoping it would be you who would tackle my arguments. But you will not! And why is that?

Here's why:

You are not here to forward the cause at all. You are here to divide revisionists. In one small breath you managed to attack the HEAD! Faurisson, Butz and Toben, and you attacked many more revisionists who worship at their feet. Will you attack Zundel when you see him? He will not stand for your nonsense any more than Faurisson.

It's tough to know how sharp and pointed one can be on CODOH, without getting the chop! You know; Be angry, and sin not. But I'll give it a go.

This place is for serious folk who want to forward the cause. The Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust. Whether the fanciful story we have all been told could possibly be true or not. It is not the committee for open debate on whether Bergs hypothetical absurd hypothesis could be true; I dunno, can pigs fly?

It is not for folk who want to point-score. How anyone could think they could possibly point score over a hypothetical question is beyond me. PLUS, in that hypothetical cloud Berg is in, he manages to denigrate the very folk we look up to, to forward the cause. From my observation; Faurisson, Toben and Butz pass with A++s. They have 100% records. Their only short coming is they won't kow-tow to an angry man who lives in a hypothetical cloud. A man whom Faurisson has publicly spanked his bottom.

C'mon Berg, don't be a wolf in wolves clothing, repent, talk to Faurisson. Get on side.

[Kiwichap]

GurtKerstein said: "What you mean is that technology to dispose of masses of bodies..."

No I didn't mean that. I never mentioned disposal. I can't get passed the bit about the gassing, let alone project myself into the disposal. Without the gassing, that would be a Berg type hypothetical question. Do you really want to go there? Bergs not doing too well with all this hypotheticalness.

GurtKerstein: You said the Germans didn't have the technology to kill millions of people and I disagree with that.

When did I say that? Stay on topic.

The Germans didn't have the technology to kill millions of people according to the fable. HCN and all. (Anyone can put a bullet in someones head.)

GurtKerstein : Also, the fact that US prisons spend a lot of money and use a scientific safe method to kill a single inmate doesn't preclude the ability to gas a mass of prisoners in a less fancy and less safe way

Great, then tell us how to do it. Show us the technology. (Words are cheap)

GurtKerstein: But the fact that it's possible...

No it's not. Evidence please. Have you a precedent?

[Kiwichap]

The thing about this thread is that it pre-supposes Germans are stupid, ... and spend-thrifts.

The technology to mass gas people with HCN. Why would any people be so stupid as to even go there? Who in their right mind would even contemplate the proposition of gas chambers.

The costs would be prohibitive when compared to the cost of a bullet. The SPCA, the Human Rights, and the Government accountants, they would all be frothing at the mouth. No way would it be classed humane or economically sound. The bullet to the head would get a better recommendation. And all the accountants would say "AMEN".

[Friedrich Paul Berg]

Hey Kiwichap, please tell me more about those regulations that you seem to be reading from somewhere. The following is from Kiwichap:

The regulations are very clear. All objects must be dry. If not, objects should be dried before commencing gassing.

So where are those "regulations" that you say are "so clear." Put up or shut up!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

[Kiwichap]

There is no need for the moderator,, not yet.

Berg, you have fallen out with the community, and asking a silly side picking hypothetical question will not get you retrieved.

Nobody is going to join you and disparage the elite, until you come clean.

What is your beef?

[GurtKerstein]

kiwi:

The technology to mass gas people with HCN. Why would any people be so stupid as to even go there? Who in their right mind would even contemplate the proposition of gas chambers.

The costs would be prohibitive when compared to the cost of a bullet. The SPCA, the Human Rights, and the Government accountants, they would all be frothing at the mouth. No way would it be classed humane or economically sound. The bullet to the head would get a better recommendation. And all the accountants would say "AMEN".

I, like you, believe that nobody was ever gassed in german concentration camps. However, what we are trying to do is address what is claimed to have happened and assess whether it is possible or not. And in that respect, yes, I do believe that if you cram people into a sealed room and pour HCN over them, they will die. Don't you think so? I have no precedence because there isn't any but would you volunteer to try? The cost would not be very high either.

Regarding your "humane" and "human rights", you almost made me laugh. There is no "humane" genocide and it is not claimed that the Nazis requested permission from Human Rights groups to carry out a genocide. And since they are attributing a diabolical character to the Germans, I don't think it would make any difference the means of killing.

Both you and Berg are besides the point. Berg with his meaningless hypothetical question and you, insisting that the Germans didn't possess a "technology" that could kill masses of inmates.

[ps]

[auto-translated from German]

I also repeatedly point out that one should not repeat mistakes from ignorance. That's always ammunition for the other side.

Among the alleged gassings in e.g. Birkenau, one is not compelled to confront witnesses in any way! The official statements are absolutely perfect for a rebuttal. The only problem here is that most of the revisionists can not recognize.

It is not necessary to reject the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, because they are erfoltert. His statements are perfect because they are recognized! It is also not necessary to deny the wire mesh columns. Just because they have been claimed by several witnesses, they are important. These statements are perfect for us!

Also, it is completely unnecessary, the statement recognized by Peters (1 mg / kg lethal dose minimalist). Or qualified by executions in gas chambers. St. Peter's values are also perfect for us!

Now there is also partial to the ventilation dissonance, which is specified at 4800 m³ / hr. But the Exterministen like to have more screwed, because otherwise would have had to eat the special command without gas masks during sandwiches difficulties. For this reason, they have "proved" that in reality, contrary to order a 8000 m³ / h run facility. And what does this mean for us? This is perfect!

And how it looks with the occupation density of the gas chambers? Even so there is no problem or only when a data from transport companies are held under the nose, which just also identify 10 persons / sq. And how stupid it then stands there with his impeachment? Damn stupid! It may just be shown very easily that also represent 15 persons / sq no problem for us.

And what about now with the trained German Shepherd should have driven the Jews into the gas chambers? Well, that was a life-saving action! The more the Jews are said to have shepherds herded into the gas chamber, the better. Hence, this statement is perfect for us!

Any testimony can be safely used. For she is always seen in the context, thus completely defeating HC! Most of us think in details and try to disprove the supposedly critical detail. And that's why they do not come on. We try to refute the details and do not realize that we may not invalidate them again! There is no better than this for us, perfect-looking statements from witnesses.



It can be shown:

1. May have been the Jews had never claimed in the killing time with the alleged killing method of killing with Zyklon B. Under no circumstances.

2. Never have the Jews up to the door opening time (ie half an hour after the alleged killing time) can be killed with Zyklon B, in the circumstances alleged ..

3. Only at very high densities and at the same time, a maximum of alleged killing was a risk that even some Jews could be killed if the Jews were also "slowly went in" to the gas chambers. Dan would have been Selbstvergasungsgefahr.

4. This would be through the use of well-trained German Shepherd and encouraging pistol shots were just as frustrated with certainty. Thus, the chambers were quickly filled.

5. The ventilation system, which would have certainly turned for the alleged time of death, would have precisely because of their alleged capacity (8000 m³ / h) and stopped any further cyclone gasification also foiled any Selbstvergasungsmöglichkeit.

6. The reason for this would be the immediate cooling of the space and thus minimize the HCN evaporation and also the oxygen would have been blown up and gone down the carbon dioxide burden.

7. The residual concentration of HCN would have been so slight that had been dying of thirst in a few days, the Jews, perhaps, but still not gassed. The body has a good fact for Peters HCN removal capability, which allows him to survive 40 ppm permanently.

8. This would therefore have been even more life-saving ventilation, would be the shorter the time was alleged killing. Below 15 minutes killing time would have Selbstvergasung anyway even at the highest chamber filling no longer works. Not even without a German shepherd dogs. The cyclone gasification not anyway.

Furthermore, is also not thought of something that appeals to Fritz Berg here: Of course, one might have to kill the Jews in the vast Entlausungsanlagen. But that has claimed just anybody! Of course, one could easily kill the Jews in the Gaskanmmern. But no one has claimed just one possible version! Of course you can with Zyklon B, or hydrogen cyanide to kill Jews. Peters sets those limits. Haber's also virtually identical Tödlichkeitsprodukt shows this. But it will be achieved in the allegations did not even process these limits!

Under these circumstances, we may even admit the alleged holes in the gas chamber! Even if they were not exported in the form of swastika. Precisely because even a killing would not have been possible!

In this way, accept all that is simple and witness statements show the consequences of these allegations, you win. And the enemy has no way to be able to attack the evidence. It can namely his own allegations which have been recognized for 60 years by himself withdraw no more!

There are only witnesses to these claims and it is no real evidence. If the witness claims to be withdrawn, there is not even these witnesses claims!

The opponent is therefore no proof or more, and his evidence is contradicted by a scientific summary of evidence. The Jews want to prevent the future that can be searched for forensic evidence a la Rudolph. They want to destroy Auschwitz (Van Pelt). They should. We need no further proof. The evidence they can not destroy and that is satisfying to us to refute the cyclone Holocaust!

[ps]

[auto-translated from German]

Do we have a problem with "gas-tight doors"? I have no problem. It is completely irrelevant to the alleged gas chamber and the operators, whether the doors were tight or not! Never would have led the doctor, who looked through the peephole fogged to determine the death of the Jews, may be at risk!

One does not even figure out whether this claim is true. Although one can quantify this claim, of course, very easily. The doctor in the hall would have led in all circumstances, always had a better air than the Jews in the gas chamber. So long as the Jews were not yet dead, he would have never compromised anyway. And if they were dead, he would not even have to continue watching.

For the gas chamber, even the small leaks at the door played no role whatsoever. Maybe a 1 / 1000 of the gas would indeed escaped through the leaky door. The killing of time would have to be extended so maybe a second.

Therefore, it is absurd to doubt this gas-tight door. It plays no part at all!

But the spy-hole plays a role. Because that is defeating. Because due to the extreme humidity in the gas chamber, the glass of the peephole had always been shod. The opportunity to observe through the peephole, therefore, zero!

What is needed therefore is a peephole? In order to peep through. Udn a peephole and a tight door is therefore only useful if it has just done a normal Luftschutztür. Therefore, it is foolish to deny the existence of such a door, perhaps. For the Holocaust claimed they would indeed be due to the fogged peephole, which should take even been diligently used fully refuting!

[Kiwichap]

GurtKerstein: "I, like you, believe that nobody was ever gassed in german concentration camps. However, what we are trying to do is address what is claimed to have happened and assess whether it is possible or not.

You may be GurtKerstein, and an admirable thing to do as well. I don't believe anybody was gassed in concentration camps either, ergo: there was no holocaust.

Yet, I do believe, to coerce someone to swallow a bitter pill, just add a little sugar. To get someone to buy a lie, just add a little truth.

Perhaps GurtKerstein, you are trying to: address what is claimed to have happened...

I would be on your side here except for the bitter pill Berg introduced. Berg deliberately made this thread divisive. He has admitted, he wants to be divisive. That can only mean, the end of this thread is gonna be a divided forum. I think Berg is right, therefore I think Faurisson, Toben, Butz, etc are flunky.

If Berg thinks anyone is gonna come outta this thread swallowing his nonsense that Faurisson, Toben, Butz, etc... are flunkies. Then ya just gotta laugh. Perhaps Berg didn't think this thread through properly before he started, perhaps he needs to rethink it.

GurtKerstein, you sound like a neurotic holo simpleton, repeating a lie, over and over. Here you go again.

"Me insisting that the Germans didn't possess a "technology" that could kill masses of inmates.";

Let me have one more dunk at the apple.

I say: The Germans didn't have the technology to kill millions of people according to the fable. Hydrogen Cyanide et al. Anyone can put a bullet in someones head. Anyone can drop bombs on people.

GurtKerstein, ya don't need new technology to kill millions of people. Anyone can do that. All ya gotta be is an evil bastard. But mass-gassing with hydrogen cyanide will require some new technology.

Lets count the pennies. 6 million bullets at 0.1c each. $600,000. 2 x caterpillar bulldozers to dig big mass graves and fill them in at one site. $200,000. Train fares to send Jews to our lovely big bullet lined pit, $100,000. Soldiers on call, $100,000 = $1,000,000.

As opposed to:

How much does a gas chamber and necessary crematorium cost? How long will it take to accomplish the deed? How many soldiers, and for how long will they be tied up? How much money do we need to spend? Coke and all, Gas and all, and an endless supply of sondercommandos? How many bulldozers? If ya believe the scam, there were lots of gas chambers, lots of soldiers, lots of piles of coke.. etc. = Millions of $$. Ya gotta believe Germans were stupid spendthrifts to believe in gas chambers. Do folk spray a bug, rather than stomp on it?

Then there is the stupidity of building gas chambers during a war. The Allies never bombed Auschwich because they checked it out and knew it was a propaganda scam. If millions of folk were going south at Auschwitz, they would have bombed it to save millions more. Pius XII didn't do anything because there was nothing to do.

The whole story is a scam GurtKerstein. However, see if you can demolish the fable without stupidly trying to demolish my hero's.