DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:34 pm)

I think the exact act same material from Muehlenkamp is at the RODOH Discussion Forum, same topic--go to page 2:

There is another side to Muehlenkamp that is much more difficult to deal with than his arguments. He is a congenital troublemaker. I had a modest discussion forum called "Hot Air" in about 2005 which was destroyed, deliberately, by Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis. They both as I recall were actually bragging about their achievement afterward. Their method was quite simple: automatically post endless repeat posts and overload my server--and , in effect, also bury any opposing posts with drivel if all else failed. So, for either of them to be excluded from this forum may be rather reasonable. The RODOH discussion forum has been reduced to a toilet because of an endless chain of personal attacks, without any substance, on anyone who dares to oppose the hoax.

The color of corpses after CO fatal poisonings is the fatal flaw in the AR (Aktion Reinhardt) camp hoax. Sure, one can make all kinds of innocent mistakes in one's testimony about dates, and names, and engine noise, etc.,--but, how can anyone possibly mistake bright cherry RED for blue, or colorless, or paleness or grey? I don't think it is possible unless one is either color blind--or an outright LIAR. All of Muehlenkamp's arguments have, I think, been answered convincingly by myself and Thomas Kues. In my first published essay from 1984 "Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth within a Myth," pages 42 and 43, I concluded a discussion of the color issue with the point: "...how could anyone have mistaken 'red' for 'blue'?"

Muehlenkamp, to his credit, is smart enough to know that color is the decisive problem for the gasoline engine exhaust theory and has countered with something that, I must admit, is rather clever. He contends that ALL of the victims succumbed before their carboxyhemoglobin blood levels reached 30% at which point the redness would have been visible to everyone. The brief answer is that his view is totally unreasonable and implausible. Although more Jews than in a peacetime population might have succumbed that way--to insist that ALL would have died that way, below 30% COHbG, is preposterous and unbelievable. In a normal population, deaths from CO below 30% COHbG are less than 2%. Of course, he is able to find all kinds of anecdotes about how horrible life had been for Jews and how near death they were even before being put into gas chambers--but, he can't find pictures that really prove anything like that. Many Jews had been active in the violent Warsaw uprising just before they were schleppt off to Treblinka and gassed, supposedly. There are also lots and lots of pictures of rather healthy Jews as I found for Auschwitz and which I show on my website.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Inquisitive » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:24 am)

Here's the proof of Demjanjuk's guilt:

Mr Blatt has not been able to identify Demjanjuk as having been one of the 100 Ukrainian guards at the camp, although he believes he was certainly there at the time he was a Sobibor prisoner. His testimony will nevertheless make it chillingly clear that anyone employed as a Sobibor guard was a vital cog in the machinery of genocide. "We were terrified of the Ukrainian guards at Sobibor. They were worse than the Germans – and I was there at the same time as Demjanjuk," he said.


He can't identify him but he [i]knows[i] he was there. That's it.......proof positive.
Someone on this forum (nickterry I think?) said the time for questioning witnesses is over. Seems okay if they condemn someone, they just can't be questioned. How DO these "people" sleep at night?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 70221.html

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:46 am)

Inquisitive wrote: Someone on this forum (nickterry I think?) said the time for questioning witnesses is over. Seems okay if they condemn someone, they just can't be questioned. How DO these "people" sleep at night?


'Twas me, and the point stands. You're not going to get fully accurate testimony from a witness on an event that occurred more than 65 years ago. It is that simple, and this goes for every witness to every event.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Inquisitive » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:47 pm)

Wahrheit wrote:
'Twas me, and the point stands. You're not going to get fully accurate testimony from a witness on an event that occurred more than 65 years ago. It is that simple, and this goes for every witness to every event.


Then why use their testimony? Blatt didn't see him, yet he'll be used to condemn the man anyway. These survivors are spreading their inaccurate stories in schools, why believe they were ever "correct" at all?

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Mojo » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:06 pm)

Inquisitive wrote:
Wahrheit wrote:
'Twas me, and the point stands. You're not going to get fully accurate testimony from a witness on an event that occurred more than 65 years ago. It is that simple, and this goes for every witness to every event.


Then why use their testimony? Blatt didn't see him, yet he'll be used to condemn the man anyway. These survivors are spreading their inaccurate stories in schools, why believe they were ever "correct" at all?


Excellent question Inquisitive!

Curious minds want to know Wahrheit. Why use their testimony at all, if you contend it isn't accurate?

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:56 pm)

Mojo wrote:
Inquisitive wrote:
Wahrheit wrote:
'Twas me, and the point stands. You're not going to get fully accurate testimony from a witness on an event that occurred more than 65 years ago. It is that simple, and this goes for every witness to every event.


Then why use their testimony? Blatt didn't see him, yet he'll be used to condemn the man anyway. These survivors are spreading their inaccurate stories in schools, why believe they were ever "correct" at all?


Excellent question Inquisitive!

Curious minds want to know Wahrheit. Why use their testimony at all, if you contend it isn't accurate?


Two fellow posters obviously missed the word "fully" in Wahrheit's statement.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby nickterry » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:28 pm)

Inquisitive wrote:
Wahrheit wrote:
'Twas me, and the point stands. You're not going to get fully accurate testimony from a witness on an event that occurred more than 65 years ago. It is that simple, and this goes for every witness to every event.


Then why use their testimony? Blatt didn't see him, yet he'll be used to condemn the man anyway.


I would have thought that it should be clear that if Wahrheit thinks that you will not get accurate testimony about a 65-year old event, then he would probably not believe that Demjanjuk should be prosecuted.

Indeed there are many non-revisionists who are very skeptical of the legal logic behind this case, for a number of reasons, of which the passage of time is just one. I am certainly one of the skeptics. So is Christian Ruter, the editor of the 'Justiz und NS-Verbrechen' series of published judgements from war crimes trials.

The reason for our skepticism is simple. Under West German law, a conviction for murder in war crimes trials from the 1960s onwards could only be secured if there was evidence that the accused had acted excessively. Thus, the majority of concentration camp guards, policemen and SS were not even prosecuted because at most, they could have been accused as accessories, but the statute of limitations on that charge ran out in the 1960s, while the statute of limitations for murder was extended for war crimes cases.

There is of course no statute of limitations on murder in the common law world.

It is entirely unclear what evidence of excessive behaviour the prosecution thinks they have in this case. Some of the news reports imply they have some, but it will not come from Thomas Blatt, who has said repeatedly in the media that he cannot remember Demjanjuk, and indeed was quoted saying the same thing around the time of the 1987 trial. Blatt can certainly testify to conditions in the camp in general, but as I and most others understand German legal precedents in these cases, nothing he says will be directly probative of Demjanjuk's individual guilt. So, either the prosecution hope to break new legal ground with an 'indirect' case, or they have some direct evidence which we have yet to hear about, perhaps from other former Trawnikis. One such witness has been named, Samuel K., but it is unclear from the press reports whether he has direct evidence to contribute against Demjanjuk, either from Sobibor or Flossenbuerg. See here: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0 ... 43,00.html

My impression is that the case was brought as a kind of 'last hurrah' for the Zentrale Stelle in Ludwigsburg, who have not had so much to do in recent years for obvious reasons, and who are named in several German press reports as the instigators for the extradition and indictment of Demjanjuk.

These survivors are spreading their inaccurate stories in schools, why believe they were ever "correct" at all?


It is an undeniable fact that memories change over time and deteriorate with age, so your question doesn't follow at all.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Malle » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:27 pm)

Nickterry, thanks for your explanation of the German justice system, but you don’t get it. It has nothing to do with justice. Some Zionists says he is guilty, and then he is automatically guilty of course, according to the German justice system. They won’t fart without approval from their Zionist Masters. So he will be convicted, no doubt about it.

How about the Zionists themselves? As they run US and most western countries they don’t need to face any punishment for their crimes. Just look at the example Salomon Morel. What a wonderful and justice world we are living in. :roll:
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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:34 pm)

Malle wrote:Nickterry, thanks for your explanation of the German justice system, but you don’t get it. It has nothing to do with justice. Some Zionists says he is guilty, and then he is automatically guilty of course, according to the German justice system. They won’t fart without approval from their Zionist Masters. So he will be convicted, no doubt about it.


Do you have anything to support your claims about the German justice system with, Mr. Malle?

Other than faith and wishful thinking, I mean.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Wahrheit » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:50 pm)

Malle wrote:Some Zionists says he is guilty, and then he is automatically guilty of course, according to the German justice system. They won’t fart without approval from their Zionist Masters. So he will be convicted, no doubt about it.


As Demjanjuk went into the very "Zionist den" (Israel) and came out alive with the charges dropped, even though they heavily suspected his presence at Sobibor, your statement doesn't necessarily follow.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Malle » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:58 pm)

Wahrheit wrote:As Demjanjuk went into the very "Zionist den" (Israel) and came out alive with the charges dropped, even though they recognzized his presence at Sobibor, your statement doesn't necessarily follow.


True Wahrheit. But the Germans will do it to show their Zionist Masters how good and dependable they are. So he will be convicted. Just wait and see.
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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby nickterry » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:58 pm)

Malle wrote:Nickterry, thanks for your explanation of the German justice system, but you don’t get it. It has nothing to do with justice. Some Zionists says he is guilty, and then he is automatically guilty of course, according to the German justice system. They won’t fart without approval from their Zionist Masters. So he will be convicted, no doubt about it.


I'm sorry, but where is the evidence that the state prosecutor in Munich danced to the tune of 'Zionist Masters'? You do not seem to consider the likelihood that for some authorities in the Federal Republic, this case could have seemed like a good idea for entirely selfish, bureaucratic reasons. German media comments have pointed out the obvious institutional explanation, that some lawyers in Ludwigsburg and Munich want to justify their jobs and have the privilege of prosecuting 'the last Nazi'. The Zentrale Stelle is a bureaucracy in search of a justification for its existence, for God's sake.

Nor are you taking into account the specifically German memory culture concerning the Holocaust. Debates in Germany about the Nazi years are incredibly inward-looking and rarely take into account what the rest of the world might think. Moreover, the 1950s through to the 1970s are now the subject of considerable public debate as well as historical research, and one of the prime topics is 'how did we come to terms with the past, did our forebears do enough to prosecute Nazis', there are literally dozens of books out about this in Germany over the last 10 years. The Zentrale Stelle and the state prosecutors in Munich live in a world where such books are read and influence their opinions. None of this discussion concerns 'Zionists' in the slightest. It has more to do with generational struggles and arguments over whether the 45ers or 68ers are the real heroes of the BRD's democratisation, and how much better the West Germans were than the totalitarian Ossies.

The German public sphere (media, academia, politics) is not homogeneous, but has vigorous debates on whether 'coming to terms with the Nazi past' has been or is being done in the right or wrong way; look at the Historikerstreit, the Walser-Bubis debate, and many other examples. These are not imaginary shadowboxing discussions but fought out between basically, the left and the right. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the establishment is a monolith.

Next: this case is being tried in public. The German media, and world media, also can read these histories of past prosecutions or speak to those who have read them. They have already done so, which is why someone like Christian Ruter is quoted in German press reports. There is thus no chance that the judges can make legal history with a conviction which does not conform reasonably to past precedents. The fact is that discussion of this case in the mainstream media in Germany is evidently quite split, and probably leans more against the case than for it. So even if the judges were 'leant on' by some imaginary puppet-masters, then this will be noticed and commented on. You can bet that some enterprising journalist is following the case closely with a view towards writing a quickie book about it when it is all over.

The most likely outcomes of this prosecution are, I am afraid, that Demjanjuk becomes verhandlungsunfaehig and is ruled medically unfit for trial, and the proceedings stop, or that due to the slow pace of the sessions dragging out the case, that he dies of natural causes before a verdict is reached, since they were talking of having to space the case out over 3 to 5 years as there are so few and such short court sessions. I do not therefore believe there will be a judgement.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Malle » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:03 pm)

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Do you have anything to support your claims about the German justice system with, Mr. Malle?

Other than faith and wishful thinking, I mean.

Mr. Muehlenkamp, of course I have. Let me give you one piece of evidence about the wonderful German system (emphasize is mine):

Trial of Otto Hoppe : perjuries by the dozen!!!

In Stade took place from March, 6 till April, 18 1950 the trial of SS-Oberscharführer Otto Hoppe. 130 witnesses were marched in to accuse him. Hoppe was condemned for murder, attempted murder, manslaughter, attempted manslaughter, and wounding to a double life sentence plus 15 years. He lost all civic rights. Particularly aggravating was his "stubborn denial, despite the overwhelming evidence".

* Especially scandalising was the description by several witnesses of the cruel treatment inflicted to WWI veteran and bearer of the "Pour-le-mérite" medal Oberleutnant Wolff.

Official investigations later revealed that Oberleutnant Kurt Wolff had already fallen in 1917 !

* The court of justice also handled the murder by Hoppe of the former jewish Reich deputy Asch. Witness Brinitzer gave a dramatic and emotionally charged description of the criminal attacks on the life of the poor Reich deputy. With shameless boldness, Brinitzer explained how, in this case, he felt it was his particular duty to serve the truth, for Asch had been his friend and comrade.

Hoppe denied in vain. While he was already in jail, it was finally revealed that a jewish Reichdeputy Asch had never existed.

* The professional witness Herbst, the crown witness of the accusation, testified that as a surveillant, Hoppe had beaten and killed the inmate Heinrich Seiler from Giessen with a club.

In 1966, this Heinrich Seiler was alive and well and still living in Giessen. He confirmed that he had never been hit, let alone touched, by Hoppe.

* The inmate and witness Przyjemski placed, in a highly dramatical way, his denture onto the table in front of the judge, explaining that Hoppe had knocked out his teeth !

The court later found out that at the time Przyjemski was not at all in Buchenwald !

It became more and more obvious that the witnesses, so adept at juggling with dates and names that concorded so perfectly and that – much later – were unmasked as pure lies, had only reached such perfection by learning and rehearsing these testimonies beforehand. The witness Przyjemski with his twelve teeth allegedly smashed in had to finally admit that he had performed his testimony on the basis of a little note that had been specially prepared for him.

In 1952, Hoppe’s trial was revised. The verdict was slightly reduced.

* The accusation, that Hoppe had shot the first inmate during the Winter of 1937/38 in Buchenwald was abandoned.

* The accusation by 13 ex detainees, that Hoppe had taken part in the shooting of 25 jews in November 1940 was proven to be intentionally untrue. Such a shooting had never occurred.

* Equally untrue was the accusation by numerous witnesses that Hoppe had taken part in a shooting during a march from Weimer to Buchenwald.

Of course, Kogon also counts among those who accused Hoppe. In his book "Der SS-Staat", Kogon makes Hoppe guilty of the murder of the jew Silbermann. And although in 1945/50 it became evident that Hoppe could not be charged with this case –- if there ever was a case Silbermann -- Kogon nevertheless publishes the murder in the newer editions of his book. The description was made even more atrocious.

It is quite revealing that Kogon, who had been in Buchenwald from September 1939 till the liberation of the camp by American troops, was not able to bring any personal charges against Hoppe. If Hoppe had really done anything, Kogon would have heard of it; he knows nothing, but neglects to exonerate Hoppe. He repeats in his book the grave accusation about Silbermann, which he only knows from hearsay, although it had been exposed in the meantime as a lie.

Kogon collected with disgusting zeal every available piece of garbage against the KZ. If Hoppe had really committed a crime, Kogon would surely have heard about it. And Kogon, the most zealous collector of KZ-atrocities, would not have hesitated one second to put them into his wastebin.

That Kogon himself is not able to charge Hoppe is the clearest and surest proof that Hoppe never committed any crime in Buchenwald.

From Franz J. Scheidl, Geschichte der Verfemung Deutchlands compiled and translated by Widukind.
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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby nickterry » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:33 pm)

Malle wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Do you have anything to support your claims about the German justice system with, Mr. Malle?

Other than faith and wishful thinking, I mean.

Mr. Muehlenkamp, of course I have. Let me give you one piece of evidence about the wonderful German system (emphasize is mine):


'One' piece of evidence is entirely inadequate to capture the realities of both investigations and court cases, when there were more than 1,000 trials. Given there were more than 1,000 trials, one would expect a certain number of flawed cases irrespective of what the crimes were. The Hoppe case is also not necessarily the best one to pick, since he was retried later on and convicted, other Buchenwald guards were also convicted for participation in the same crimes. I do not think Scheidl is even reporting the case entirely correctly, and may have been recycling some false accusations of the kind that definitely circulated in the nationalist press during the 1960s.

Verfahren Lfd.Nr.766
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Hop., Otto 15 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Stade 720125
LG Stade 500418
BGH 511220
Tatland: Deutschland
Tatort: HS KL Buchenwald
Tatzeit: 38-4203
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Deutsche, Sowjetische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Buchenwald
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung und schwere Misshandlung von nach der Kristallnacht eingelieferten Juden. Teilnahme an der Massenerschiessung russischer Kriegsgefangener in der Genickschussanlage im 'Pferdestall' des Lagers. Erschiessung von 21 jüdischen Häftlingen nach dem Attentat auf Hitler 1939 sowie von 25 Juden im November 1940. Weitere zahlreiche Fälle der Tötung, versuchter Tötung und schwerer Misshandlung von Häftlingen

Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXXVI


^
this text will be where the answers really lie, and no place else, I am afraid.


The statistics show that the overwhelming majority of suspects were never charged, and when cases went to court, a great many acquittals resulted. The reasons are as explained above, German judges interpreted the murder statute (the same one as was instituted after unification in 1871 and used under the Nazis) in a manner that meant 'obeying orders' was not deemed full murder. So a defendant could have participated in mass executions, but go free because of the interpretation of the law regarding his own personal guilt.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 9 months ago (Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:38 pm)

In the Hoppe case, is a transcript even available, anywhere --or as, I suspect, merely a carefully crafted summary of selected evidence? I believe that summaries are all one has in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXXVI

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.


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