DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Inquisitive » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:08 am)

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Two fellow posters obviously missed the word "fully" in Wahrheit's statement.


We didn't miss it. At exactly what time in their miserable lives were they "fully" accurate? It's these same not "fully" accurate accounts that condemned Germany and now revisionists. If they put these trials up for all to see, Zionists would go down in flames. They will anyway, it's only a matter of when.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:14 am)

Malle wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Do you have anything to support your claims about the German justice system with, Mr. Malle?

Other than faith and wishful thinking, I mean.

Mr. Muehlenkamp, of course I have. Let me give you one piece of evidence about the wonderful German system (emphasize is mine):


So the rendering of just one "piece of evidence" by a fellow with an obvious ideological agenda (whose accuracy one should accordingly be sketpical about) is sufficient for you to form an opinion about the judicial system of the German Federal Republic in its entirety, Mr. Malle?

You are obviously quick to jump to generalizing conclusions that fit your preconceived notions, then. And to uncritically accept any source that fits such preconceived notions.

Since 1945, a total of 912 trials were held involving 1875 defendants accused of homicidal crimes committed during World War II in the service of National Socialism. These trials resulted in 14 death sentences, 150 life sentences and 842 timely sentences (http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/J ... mepage.htm > West German Trials > Introduction).When you can provide evidence to "perjuries by the dozen" and/or similarly grievous irregularities regarding, say, five per cent of the trials whose summaries are listed under http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortfr.htm (preferably trials connected with extermination camps or mobile killing operations), please let me know.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:43 am)

Inquisitive wrote:Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Two fellow posters obviously missed the word "fully" in Wahrheit's statement.


We didn't miss it. At exactly what time in their miserable lives were they "fully" accurate? It's these same not "fully" accurate accounts that condemned Germany and now revisionists. If they put these trials up for all to see, Zionists would go down in flames. They will anyway, it's only a matter of when.


I'll let you in on a little secret, Inquisitive: the eyewitness who is fully accurate is a rare case in criminal investigation, ask any trial judge. Eyewitnesses tend to get lots of details wrong, without this changing the fact that they are usually accurate as concerns the essential features of the event they describe. A case in point is the assassination of JFK in Dallas in 1963: out of dozens of eyewitnesses on the crime site none could provide accurate information as to where the shots that killed Kennedy had come from, and testimonies differed widely in this respect. But only an idiot would thus conclude that these eyewitnesses didn't see Kennedy get shot, don't you think so?

No one ever "condemned Germany", by the way. What happened was that the crimes of numerous individuals serving a criminal regime were proven beyond a reasonable doubt by converging evidence including but not limited to the testimonies of numerous eyewitnesses that the criminal justice authorities investigating such crimes, i.e. those of the German Federal Republic in most cases, considered credible enough.

And it's not like the judgments and other records of these trials were kept a secret. They are available "for all to see", largely even on the internet - see for instance Harry Mazal's collection of transcripts from the IMT and NMT trials and the trial of Josef Kramer and others under http://www.mazal.org/, or the trial reports available under http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/trials.htm .

With the exception of the Eichmann and Demjanjuk cases, these trials were also not initiated by your "Zionists". The history of the trials in the German Federal Republic, for instance, you may read about in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... e-and.html .
Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:51 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:In the Hoppe case, is a transcript even available, anywhere --or as, I suspect, merely a carefully crafted summary of selected evidence? I believe that summaries are all one has in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXXVI

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!


You mean the Hoppe case summarized under http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng446.htm, Mr. Berg? The judgment is in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Vol. XIV. You can order a copy of the judgment for € 25 from the editor of the Justiz und NS-Verbrechen collection, see under http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/bestellen.htm .

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:23 pm)

I do not want or need a "summary," or any copy of the "judgement." I would like to see an actual certified transcript from the trial. Surely, you must know the difference, Muehlenkamp.

Most of us know what BS the summaries and judgements will inevitably contain. For most of the postwar trials from which Kogon and company somehow gleaned their testimonies, there simply are NO transcripts as far as I know. That alone makes any alleged "statements" from those trials extremely suspect, to say the least. The postwar trials in Germany in German courts really are an absolute disgrace. To take the testimony generated there seriously is insane--but that is the best "evidence" the hoaxers have; they have n-o-t-h-i-n-g better, not even real witnesses. To turn around and also use those "summaries" as evidence for other trials is outrageous. It is a self-perpetuating hoax with a life of its own--far removed from whatever really happened!

In the Spiegel story for which Nick Terry provided the link yesterday
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0 ... 43,00.html
we see how the prosecution is working. Samuel K. is under extreme pressure to give testimony the prosecutor needs. If Samuel K. is a "good boy" and really helps convict Demjanjuk, Samuel K will avoid prosecution for his own possible involvement at Sobibor--go home, and die in peace. But, heaven forbid, if Samuel K. is uncooperative--then, he will spend what little remains of his own life in prison, or in court. Such a deal we got for you, Samuel K.!

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Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Drew J » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:58 pm)

The postwar trials in Germany in German courts really are an absolute disgrace.

I agree fully. The corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants has been done to death on this board I feel.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:06 pm)

Drew J wrote:
The postwar trials in Germany in German courts really are an absolute disgrace.

I agree fully. The corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants has been done to death on this board I feel.


Unopposed nonsense on a censored forum doesn't take care of any subject.

I suggest you try again, this time with someone to have a critical look at what evidence to the "corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants" you can provide.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Moderator2 » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:25 am)

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Unopposed nonsense on a censored forum doesn't take care of any subject.

Either you or anyone else is censored for their views at this forum. You may wonder why some of your posts doesn’t see the light of the day? It's very simple, read our rules/guidelines again, specially the points below. We don’t allow anyone to trash our forum.

  • Keep your posts limited to one point.
  • Voluminous, lengthy, and redundant posts are not welcomed.

If you don’t want to comply with it, stop posting here.
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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:37 am)

For the IMT and NMT trials, there were transcripts which are easy to get to--but for the trials after that, as far as I can tell there were few transcripts, if any at all. It is the supposed testimony from those trials which are actually far more important as far as the gassing allegations.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings .com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Drew J » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:08 am)

viewtopic.php?p=38754#p38754
It's called being threatened with either life in prison or a sentence so long that you will die in jail or death and so you tell them what they want because they knew what happened to their German brethren at Nuremburg and how Nazis were tortured into saying what they wanted to hear.

As for the West German government, MIke James and Ernst Zundel has pretty much taught us how illegitimate it in fact is. Watch Zundel explain the facts on Crossfire.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f
Nothing but a puppet of the allied powers is what west germany was in those days


viewtopic.php?p=39588#p39588
We've already dealt with the supposedly objective German Federal Republic issue before and how likely they were to suborn perjury. Eleonore Hodys is just another exposed fraud. Well, rather her statement as given to the world.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5775

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Drew J » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:17 am)

Ernst Zündel: A Prisoner in a State That Does Not Exist
By Mike James in Frankfurt, Germany – 20 December 2005
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=8262

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Drew J » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:20 am)

I suggest you try again, this time with someone to have a critical look at what evidence to the "corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants" you can provide.

This would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that the hyperlinks to old posts of mine that I gave out showed you recycling the old line of 'oh these guys are just conspiracy theorists about the west german government' in some of your old blog entries which I responded to. Which clearly means you have read what we have said on the subject before. Therefore don't pretend you haven't read them when you imlpy it's time for someone to take a critical look at them. You're already supposed to have or did you forget? Or maybe you didn't forget and your language covertly admits you haven't been critical (or objective)? :lol:

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:57 am)

Drew J wrote:http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=38754#p38754
It's called being threatened with either life in prison or a sentence so long that you will die in jail or death and so you tell them what they want because they knew what happened to their German brethren at Nuremburg and how Nazis were tortured into saying what they wanted to hear.


Just how many documented cases are there in which some was threatened or tortured in the manner claimed?

Please list all of them, and provide the respective evidence.

Drew J wrote:As for the West German government, MIke James and Ernst Zundel has pretty much taught us how illegitimate it in fact is. Watch Zundel explain the facts on Crossfire.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f
Nothing but a puppet of the allied powers is what west germany was in those days


So the propaganda claims of Mike James and Ernst Zundel are enough for you to assume that West German criminal justice was corrupted by the Anglo Americans and doing their bidding?

If that was so, how do you explain that West German criminal justice hardly moved a finger as concerns Nazi crimes throughout most of the 1950s and only became active after the Ulm Einsatzgruppen Trial in 1958 called the attention of German criminal justice authorities and the German public to what grievous crimes had not yet been judicially dealt with, as mentioned in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... e-and.html ?

Drew J wrote:http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=39588#p39588
We've already dealt with the supposedly objective German Federal Republic issue before and how likely they were to suborn perjury. Eleonore Hodys is just another exposed fraud. Well, rather her statement as given to the world.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5775


What evidence is there that Eleonore Hodys committed perjury?

And assuming she did and that West German criminal justice authorities nevertheless accepted her testimony as accurate (which you will have to demonstrate), how would this justify a generalizing conclusion about the handling of NS crimes by West German criminal justice as a whole, with hundreds of trials held before dozens of different courts?

Since 1945, a total of 912 trials were held involving 1875 defendants accused of homicidal crimes committed during World War II in the service of National Socialism. These trials resulted in 14 death sentences, 150 life sentences and 842 timely sentences (http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JuNSVEng/J ... mepage.htm > West German Trials > Introduction).When you can provide evidence to "perjuries by the dozen" and/or similarly grievous irregularities regarding, say, five per cent of the trials whose summaries are listed under http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Tatortfr.htm (preferably trials connected with extermination camps or mobile killing operations), please let me know.
Last edited by Roberto Muehlenkamp on Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:01 am)

Drew J wrote:Ernst Zündel: A Prisoner in a State That Does Not Exist
By Mike James in Frankfurt, Germany – 20 December 2005
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=8262


Lots of rhetoric, no evidence to any undue influencing of West German criminal justice by the Anglo-Americans or anyone else. Got nothing better?

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Re: DEMJANJUK: Scapegoat for Madness

Postby Roberto Muehlenkamp » 1 decade 1 year ago (Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:11 am)

Drew J wrote:
I suggest you try again, this time with someone to have a critical look at what evidence to the "corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants" you can provide.

This would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that the hyperlinks to old posts of mine that I gave out showed you recycling the old line of 'oh these guys are just conspiracy theorists about the west german government' in some of your old blog entries which I responded to. Which clearly means you have read what we have said on the subject before. Therefore don't pretend you haven't read them when you imlpy it's time for someone to take a critical look at them. You're already supposed to have or did you forget? Or maybe you didn't forget and your language covertly admits you haven't been critical (or objective)? :lol:


I don't remember having discussed these issues with you on this forum before (even though, as you mentioned, I thrashed your nonsense in several blogs that can be viewed on HC under the label "Greg Gerdes": http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... g%20Gerdes, or in posts on another forum that these blogs link to). I also haven't seen anyone else critically addressing said nonsense on this forum before. But now I'm here, so fire away. Show me what evidence to the "corruption and control of the West German government by allied forces and government agents/plants" you can provide. And it better be something other than Ernst Zündel rhetoric.

As to objectivity, I'm objective and you're not, because I'm only interested in historical facts whereas you have an ideological axe to grind. As simple as that.


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