Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
JustTheTruth
Member
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:53 pm

Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby JustTheTruth » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:17 pm)

Documents that Don’t Make Sense
Part One
by
Monkey Puzzler


The following website publishes this picture as proof of the holocaust, but is it?
http://dianamarahenry.com/natzweiler-st ... ruthof.htm
NSCampscleansedofJews_000.jpg
Website text:"After the Wannsee conference officially determined the extermination policy of the Third Reich in 1942, all the concentration camps were ordered "cleansed of Jews" and sent to the killing centers at Auschwitz and Lublin.However, many "secret Jews" who had been in predominantly non-Jewish resistance movements ( as contrasted with primarily Jewish resistance groups) remained at Natzweiler-Struthof. Other Jews were brought to the KLNa specifically to be gassed in the gas chamber, as were Gypsies."


If this letter is genuine, why does the author presumably forget that he is writing the letter on the 7th of October 1942, that does not get issued until the 10th, but is asking for a reply by the 9th?

Maybe he just forgot that it took some time for the recipients to actually receive his letter and then have a chance to respond to it; let alone actually delivering the response to him.

Maybe in the confusion of war he forgot that this was the start of the month and thought that such a report could be completed instantly by each camp and returned before he had time to send his letter. Maybe he telephoned them and this was just an official reminder. Or maybe he was meaning the 9th of the NEXT month and just forgot to mention it.

Another interesting point is why SS Maurer was not sending these Jews from the Reich “cleansing” straight to the “extermination camps” such as Treblinka which was ready for deliveries by July 24, 1942, so should have been in full-production by then; or Sobibor which had apparently begun mass gassing operations by May 1942.

Another answered question is why he was also requesting that these “cleansed” Jews should be sent to Lublin (Majdanek) which was NOT an extermination camp? After all hadn’t the Wannsee conference officially determined the extermination policy of the Third Reich by the time this letter was written?

I guess we will never know…

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:34 pm)

This is a transcribed, translated document and this website's version has a misdating

The actual date of this order was October 5, 1942, the order from the WVHA to the Lagerkommandanten was registered as Nuremberg document PS-3677. The same sentiment was also in an RSHA telex to the commandant of Ravensbrueck on October 2, 1942, stating that Himmler had ordered on 29 September 1942 that Jewish prisoners be transferred from Ravensbrueck. The RSHA also sent out a circular to its offices (Stapoleitstellen) on October 2, announcing the new policy.

At least 1,559 Jewish prisoners were transferred shortly thereafter from concentration camps in the Reich to Auschwitz, where they were registered en bloc on arrival, some time later being gathered for a roll-call and 'selected'.

Sources: Karin Orth, Das System der nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslager, Hamburg, 1999, pp.172-174; see also the Auschwitz Chronicle or Kalendarium for October and early November 1942.

Malle
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:53 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Malle » 1 decade 1 year ago (Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:39 pm)

Hi Nickterry, thanks for your input. You are correct about the date, it’s October 5. As the Nuremberg Trials is a particularly interest to me, let me point out without being nitpicking, your reference to Nuremberg document PS-3677 is wrong. It should be “3677-PS”. I know that in IMT (The Blue Series), NCA (The Red Series) and NMT (The Green series) they are making this mistake several times, but in your case it’s NMT vol. 5 page 1126 that this reference comes from.

Excerpt:
On 5 October 1942 Himmler ordered that all concentration
camps within the Reich territory were to be cleared of Jews. "All
Jews within these concentration camps are therefore to be transferred
to Auschwitz or Lublin." What happened to the Jews sent
to these two places is described later. (V/52, Doc. 3677-PS.)


If I remember correctly the reference on the documents “PS” is from the
Polish “Special State Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes” I’m I correct here?
Do you have the “3677-PS” scanned? If so, please post it here.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

User avatar
Kiwichap
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:54 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:20 am)

What I find funny, hilarious actually, are all the posts re: Jews on trains, or transportation of Jews here, there, or wherever.. or documents about Jews on the move. Travel documents don't prove anything, except Jews were on the move.

So what. Have you posters not heard of the secret Haavara Agreement, The Transfer Agreement;. The National Socialists made this agreement with the Zionist Jews? What part of TRANSFER don't you get?

.. the immigration of German Jews to Palestine represented a tolerable solution to Germany’s supposed “Jewish problem.”... facilitating Jewish immigration under the complex terms of the so-called Haavara or “Transfer” Agreement. The Haavara Agreement simultaneously permitted German Jews to transfer part of their wealth to Palestine and favored German exports to the region — the latter aspect earning it the support also of the Economics Ministry. “It cannot be denied that the Haavara Transfer made a considerable contribution to the development of Jewish settlement in Palestine,” Gensicke writes.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/poli%20...%2089176.html


So why wouldn't there be Jews on the move? It was all part of the plan for Jews by Jews. Selection at Auschwich was for transport to Palestine. Only pathological liars would think it was for anything else without any evidence to show... or even a name.

No wonder Hitler thought it was a good idea to let folk think whatever they wanted. The truth always outs.

If I was a Jew, I would be so angry, I would slap my Rabbi in the face with a pork chop! Fancy the synagogue doing that to me and mine.

Documents do make sense.

Hilarious.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Malle
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:53 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Malle » 1 decade 1 year ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:31 pm)

Kiwichap wrote:Documents do make sense.
Hilarious.


Kiwi, yes they do. I found Hannover’s old one: :mrgreen:

Hannover wrote:
* Mass graves expelling geysers of blood;[1]
* Acid or boiling-water baths to produce human skeletons;[2]
* Injections into the eyes of inmates to change their eye color;[3]
* Production of shrunken heads from bodies of inmates;[4]
* Skimming off boiling human fat from open-air cremation fires;[5]
* Out of pity for complete strangers - a Jewish mother and her child - an SS-man leaps into the gas chamber voluntarily at the last second in order to die with them;[6]
* Soap production from human fat, solemn burial of soap;[7]
* Underground mass extermination in enormous rooms, by means of high voltage electricity;[8]
* Killing in vacuum chamber or with steam or chlorine gas;[9]
* Mass graves with hundreds of thousands of bodies, removed without a trace within a few weeks; a true miracle of improvisation on the part of the Germans;[10]
* Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits; delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves;[11]
* Electrical conveyor-belt executions;[12]
* Cremation of bodies in blast furnaces;[13]
* SS bicycle races in the gas chamber of Birkenau;[14]
* Removal of corpses by means of blasting, i.e., blowing them up;[15]
* Blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid (which is colorless);[16]
* Singing of national anthems and the Internationales by the victims in the gas chamber; evidence for atrocity propaganda of Communist origin;[17]
* Rapid-construction portable gas chamber sheds;[18]
* Killing by drinking a glass of liquid hydrocyanic acid;[19]
* Muscles cut from the legs of executed inmates contract so strongly that it makes the buckets jump about;[20]
* Introduction of Zyklon gas into the gas chambers of Auschwitz through shower heads or from steel bottles.[21]
* The SS made sausage in the crematoria out of human flesh.[22]
* Mummified human thumbs were used as light switches in the house of Ilse Koch, wife of KZ commander Koch (Buchenwald).[23]
* Breathed through a keyhole in a gas chamber door at Flossburg to stay alive, cursed the SS when they opened the door, then ran away. [24]

Sources:
[1] A. Rückerl, op. cit. (note 141), p. 273f.; E. Wiesel, Paroles d'Etranger, Editiondu Seuil, Paris 1982, p. 86; A. Eichmann, in: H. Arendt, op. cit. (note 179), p.184; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), p. 214.
[2] F. Müller, in: H. Langbein, op. cit. (note 151), v. 1, p. 87; witness Wells in the Eichmann Trial, in: F. J. Scheidl, op. cit. (note 74), v. 4, p. 236.
[3] H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit. (note 152), pp. 383f.
[4] H. Langbein, ibid., p. 381.
[5] R. Höß, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), p. 130; H. Tauber, in: J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), pp. 489f.; F. Müller, Sonderbehandlung, Steinhausen,Munich 1979, pp. 207f., 217ff.; H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit.(note 152), p. 148; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), pp. 10, 334f., 443; S. Steinberg, according to: Französisches Büro des Informationsdienstes überKriegsverbrechen (ed.), Konzentrationslager Dokument 321, Reprint 2001, Frankfurt/Main 1993, p. 206; and many more.
[6] E. Bonhoeffer, op. cit. (note 213), pp. 48f.
[7] S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 15/16 & 17/18, 1946; the Soviets wanted to make this one of the charges at the IMT (exhibit USSR-393), but this plan failed due to the other Allies; cf. H. Härtle, Freispruch für Deutschland, Schütz, Göttingen 1965, pp. 126ff.; the Greenwood Cemetery in Atlanta (Georgia, USA) is not the only site to boast a Holocaust-memorial gravestone for 4 bars of "Jewish soap". Cf. also the following corrections: R. Harwood, D. Felderer, JHR 1(2) (1980) pp. 131-139; M. Weber, JHR 11(2) (1991) pp. 217-227.
[8] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. S. Szende, Der letzte Jude aus Polen, Europa-Verlag, Zürich 1945; S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 19/20, 1946.
[9] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.
[10] Aside from note 349, cf. also W. Benz, Dimension des Völkermords, Oldenbourg, Munich 1991; pp. 320, 469, 479, 489, 537ff.
[11] Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.
[12] Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945, cf. U. Walendy, Historische Tatsachen No. 31: "Die Befreiung von Auschwitz 1945", Verlag für Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Vlotho 1987, p. 4.
[13] H. von Moltke, Briefe an Freya 1939-1945, Beck, Munich 1988, p. 420; cf. P. Longerich (ed.), op. cit. (note 271), p. 435; Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945.
[14] Nürnberger Nachrichten, Sept. 11, 1978, report about eyewitness testimony in the jury court trial in Aschaffenburg.
[15] R. Höß, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), pp. 161f.; A. Rückerl, NS-Prozesse, op. cit. (note 127), p. 78; H. Grabitz, NS-Prozesse., op. cit. (note191), p. 28.
[16] R. Böck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor's Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.
[17] H. G. Adler, H. Langbein, E. Lingens-Reiner (eds.), Auschwitz - Zeugnisse und Berichte, Europäische Verlagsanstalt, Cologne 1984, p. 76.
[18] R. Aschenauer (ed.), Ich, Adolf Eichmann, Druffel, Leoni 1980, pp. 179f.
[19] Verdict of the Hannover District Court, Ref. 2 Ks 1/60; cf. H. Lichtenstein, op. cit. (note 84), p. 83.
[20] F. Müller, op. cit. (note 345), p. 74.
[21] M. Scheckter and a report of June 4, 1945, written by an officer of the 2nd Armored Division, about Auschwitz; Französisches Büro des Informationsdienstes über Kriegsverbrechen (ed.), op. cit. (note 345), p. 184.
[22] David Pressac, in J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), p. 554, fourth column, lines 17-22.
[23] Kurt Glass, New York Times, April 10. 1995.
from: 'Death Was Our Destiny',p.49-50, by Arnold Friedman,
Vantage Press, 1972.
[24] Arnold Friedman, Death Was Our Destiny, Vantage Press, 1972, p.49-50
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:23 am)

Malle wrote:Hi Nickterry, thanks for your input. You are correct about the date, it’s October 5. As the Nuremberg Trials is a particularly interest to me, let me point out without being nitpicking, your reference to Nuremberg document PS-3677 is wrong. It should be “3677-PS”. I know that in IMT (The Blue Series), NCA (The Red Series) and NMT (The Green series) they are making this mistake several times, but in your case it’s NMT vol. 5 page 1126 that this reference comes from.

Excerpt:
On 5 October 1942 Himmler ordered that all concentration
camps within the Reich territory were to be cleared of Jews. "All
Jews within these concentration camps are therefore to be transferred
to Auschwitz or Lublin." What happened to the Jews sent
to these two places is described later. (V/52, Doc. 3677-PS.)


If I remember correctly the reference on the documents “PS” is from the
Polish “Special State Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes” I’m I correct here?
Do you have the “3677-PS” scanned? If so, please post it here.


Hi Malle,

You're correct about it being 3677-PS, there is not much consistency across authors as to whether they write it correctly or not; Orth didn't.

A -PS code means 'Paris, Storrey', referring to the captured documents unit headed up by Colonel Storrey of the US Army. So it has nothing to do with the Polish Main Commission. An actual German document (rather than an affidavit, government statement etc) given a -PS code was almost always from the holdings captured by the Americans, e.g. the documents used against Rosenberg, such as 025-PS, can all be found in NARA RG242, T454 and in Bundesarchiv R6. There are a few exceptions but all of the details of provenance and the date when the document was registered can be found on a 'staff evidence analysis' coversheet in the US National Archives. Some examples of those can be seen on the Harvard Nuremberg Trials website, if the IMT -PS series materials were reused in the Doctors' Trial.

I do not have jpeg scans, by and large, of documents, since I have almost always photocopied and latterly used scanners which produce PDFs, which would require a lot of effort to extract, so it's not worth it, I'm sorry.

The notations on this document indicate it was captured at Natzweiler, and it seems the Allies found quite a few KZ documents there. For example, at least one copy of the circular ordering the cutting of prisoners' hair in August 1942 was captured at Natzweiler. In many cases, it appears the same circular was then captured elsewhere.

Gébé Tremblay
Member
Member
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Gébé Tremblay » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:38 am)

So if Treblinka was not a transit camp but a extermination camp, how come this order target all camps ? This would mean there were only one extermination camp ; Aushwitz !

If Treblinka was a transit camp, then it makes sense that it would not have even been considered in that order.

Any wich way we look at it, the Holocaust does not fit in.

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:29 am)

Gébé Tremblay wrote:So if Treblinka was not a transit camp but a extermination camp, how come this order target all camps ? This would mean there were only one extermination camp ; Aushwitz !

If Treblinka was a transit camp, then it makes sense that it would not have even been considered in that order.

Any wich way we look at it, the Holocaust does not fit in.


Hi Gébé.

Treblinka was not a concentration camp of the WVHA and therefore did not come under the authority of Amtsgruppe D, the office in charge of the concentration camps, so there is no reason why it would have received such an order. Like Belzec and Sobibor, Treblinka was under the authority of SSPF Lublin, Odilo Globocnik, although it was actually located in the Warsaw district.

Moreover, the order was sent only to concentration camps in the Reich, not to any camp in the east - the order did not go to Auschwitz or Majdanek, either. Auschwitz received separate correspondence concerning the transfer, specifically a request to exchange Polish prisoners who qualified as skilled workers for the Jewish prisoners it would take in; but the Auschwitz camp staff baulked at this, saying that it was not in a position to give up skilled workers. So nothing was done about transferring Poles until early 1943.

So I am afraid that the absence of Treblinka (or Belzec, Sobibor) from the list of camps on the circular means precisely nothing either way, for or against extermination or transit.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2468
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:24 pm)

I think the answer Gebe is it's a poorly done fake. In the history of Buchenwald, I don't think you can find any indication that they shipped their Jews to Auschwitz. And when Buchenwald was taken by the Americans it was 20 percent Jewish. Some of these were an influx from Auschwitz. This leads to another subject: So there's a plan to kill all Jews yet they send Jews to Auschwitz, and then back Buchenwald at the end of the war, yet there's an extermination plan?

Nick Terry's writes,
Moreover, the order was sent only to concentration camps in the Reich, not to any camp in the east - the order did not go to Auschwitz or Majdanek, either.


But Gebe's question is this: if they're going to kill the Jews. Why not send them to the supposed Jewish extermination camps? Terry points out that the order didn't go to Auschwitz. How does that make sense? The order is saying to send Jews to Auschwitz.

It's probably a poorly done Psyche Warfare or OSS fraud, hence seen in the first camp taken, Natzweiler. Poorly done frauds are everywhere. From the shrunken heads at Buchenwald, to showing Rudolf Hess a document he supposedly signed, and Hess having to point out that his signature is HeB not Hess.

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:13 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:I think the answer Gebe is it's a poorly done fake. In the history of Buchenwald, I don't think you can find any indication that they shipped their Jews to Auschwitz. And when Buchenwald was taken by the Americans it was 20 percent Jewish. Some of these were an influx from Auschwitz. This leads to another subject: So there's a plan to kill all Jews yet they send Jews to Auschwitz, and then back Buchenwald at the end of the war, yet there's an extermination plan?

Nick Terry's writes,
Moreover, the order was sent only to concentration camps in the Reich, not to any camp in the east - the order did not go to Auschwitz or Majdanek, either.


But Gebe's question is this: if they're going to kill the Jews. Why not send them to the supposed Jewish extermination camps? Terry points out that the order didn't go to Auschwitz. How does that make sense? The order is saying to send Jews to Auschwitz.

It's probably a poorly done Psyche Warfare or OSS fraud, hence seen in the first camp taken, Natzweiler. Poorly done frauds are everywhere. From the shrunken heads at Buchenwald, to showing Rudolf Hess a document he supposedly signed, and Hess having to point out that his signature is HEB not Hess.


A) Documentation of the Transfers
1. Buchenwald is a very well documented camp with pretty much complete info on arrivals and transfers. I am no expert on Buchenwald, but it would be sensible for anyone making a forgery claim to ensure that there really is no indication of a transfer
2. The arrival of Jews from Buchenwald is recorded in the Kalendarium/Smolen list, so it's documented
3. So are arrivals from most other KZs (see Orth)
4. Other KZs also possess arrivals/transfers statistics, eg Sachsenhausen

B) Corroboration of the Order
1. As mentioned above, at least one exemplar of a WVHA> Ravensbrueck order exists, for 2.10.42
2. There is also an RSHA circular of the same date, same order
3. There is correspondence relating to the transfer in the files of the Auschwitz labour deployment department (Abt IIIa, Arbeitseinsatz). The reply from Auschwitz dated 10.10.42 mentions a telex from WVHA on the same day as the other camps received their orders, 5.10.42, ergo the original telex to Auschwitz is lost, hardly unusual
4. Although this order is known, via IMT, from the copy sent to Natzweiler, 11 other KZs were also sent the order, and some of those are very well documented. There may yet be further copies to add to the four converging pieces of correspondence already on the table

Purpose of the Transfers within the Final Solution
1. To make the KZs of the Altreich and Austria 'Jew-free', which was in 1942 the publicly declared goal of the Nazis for the Reich anyhow, so it should come as no surprise and would be an odd anomaly had the SS not done something like this, in 1942.
2. To transfer existing KZ inmates to camps where they could be either exploited for labour or killed, in total conformity with the overall selection policy that was the Final Solution

Obviously, revisionists and non-revisionists will disagree on the last point.

However, it needs emphasising if there is to be any kind of fruitful dialogue, that non-revisionists do not argue that the Final Solution was a policy of 100% instantaneous extermination, but from the outset combined both labour exploitation as well as extermination, largely determined by selections according to fitness for work.

This policy moreover shifted in the course of the war, with groups of forced labourers spared in 1942, then killed in 1943, in some regions (thus the camps of Lublin and Galicia districts were cleared while the camps of the Radom district, being more war-critical, were spared). At no time did the number of Jewish forced labourers fall below 100,000. Then in 1944, the changing fortunes of war forced a dramatic volte-face, whereby Jewish labourers were brought back to the Reich on Hitler's orders. In politics this is known as a U-turn, and let it not be said that the Nazis, or any German government, are incapable of such behaviour. Simply put, the economic imperatives overrode the ideological dogma of National Socialism, much as economic imperatives had overridden the opposition of Bormann and Himmler to the utilisation of Polish and Russian workers in the Reich. In 1942-43, the supply of non-Jewish foreign workers appeared virtually inexhaustible, whereas by 1944, much territory had been lost in the east and there were grave difficulties maintaining quotas in other territories such as France, Italy or Poland. So the Hungarian Jews were deported and selected en masse, but the 'unfit' among them, who numbered the majority in the eyes of the SS, were killed.

On a smaller scale, the same applied with the 1,500 Jewish KZ inmates transferred from the Reich to Auschwitz. They were registered en bloc but then subjected to a selection when all of the little batches had arrived, on October 28, 1942. Just over half, about 800, were selected for labour, the rest killed. The high rate of 'fitness' must surely reflect the fact that these were people who had already survived concentration camps, so the weaker ones had to a greater extent than usual, already been weeded out.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2468
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:14 pm)

The idea of Jews as essential labor force is one of the most absurd lies of the holocaust myth. That Nick Terry goes as far as to say
. Simply put, the economic imperatives overrode the ideological dogma of National Socialism,


And yet, what did the Nazi movie The Eternal Jew put forth regarding Jewish labor in Poland? That the Jews didn't know how to do blue collar labor and needed to be shown how. Doesn't that movie show Jews sweeping in a ridiculous way or something like that. Not that I believe that to be true, but it does show the Nazi opinion on Jewish manual labor. Similarly the book, The Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto shows a Nazi attempt to create skilled Jewish laborers so that they could then have their own country. I.e. learning labor skills was in sync with Zionism. The Nazis were thus in sync with Zionism.

To make the holocaust myth make sense, you have to have Jews as this valuable blue collar labor force, such that no other conscripts could be substituted. And a lot of complicated gymnastics involving "WVHA" and "RSHA" tries to make this seem plausible.

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:30 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:The idea of Jews as essential labor force is one of the most absurd lies of the holocaust myth. That Nick Terry goes as far as to say
. Simply put, the economic imperatives overrode the ideological dogma of National Socialism,


And yet, what did the Nazi movie The Eternal Jew put forth regarding Jewish labor in Poland? That the Jews didn't know how to do blue collar labor and needed to be shown how. Doesn't that movie show Jews sweeping in a ridiculous way or something like that. Not that I believe that to be true, but it does show the Nazi opinion on Jewish manual labor. Similarly the book, The Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto shows a Nazi attempt to create skilled Jewish laborers so that they could then have their own country. I.e. learning labor skills was in sync with Zionism. The Nazis were thus in sync with Zionism.

To make the holocaust myth make sense, you have to have Jews as this valuable blue collar labor force, such that no other conscripts could be substituted. And a lot of complicated gymnastics involving "WVHA" and "RSHA" tries to make this seem plausible.


CCS, you quoted me out of context.

By 1944, the Germans were unable to recruit large numbers of foreign workers as they had done in 1942-3, for work in the Reich. One of the few sources of 'deployable' labour left was the concentration camp system. The specific crisis that led to the decision to bring in primarily Hungarian Jews to work inside Germany was the decision to create a Fighter Staff, which was to build underground factories, along the same lines as the underground factories built to build the V-weapons. In the spring of 1944, the Luftwaffe was losing badly in the air and in fact, losing the war. The first transports to leave Auschwitz with Hungarian Jewish workers didn't do so until practically D-Day. The situation was entirely different to the previous two years. So ideological principles had to be overturned, in the face of strategic and economic realities. Which is what happened; which is why 110,000 Hungarian Jews were selected for labour at Auschwitz, and sent everywhere in Germany. The rest, 320,000 Hungarian Jews, well, they... disappeared, shall we say. They were not regarded as capable of work. Later on, other groups, such as part of the Lodz ghetto, and inmates of Jewish forced labour camps in the Generalgouvernement, then finally prisoners evacuated from Auschwitz, were added to the labour force inside Germany, in the last 9 months of the war, at a time when Germany had lost France, lost Belgium, lost most of Italy, lost all of the USSR, lost half of the Generalgouvernement, and could not simply sweep up foreign workers like it used to.

The Nazis clearly wanted a judenfrei Reich; I hope we can agree that this was their policy, since they stated it often enough, and the evidence that they deported Jews from the Reich is too overwhelming to be reasonably disputed. But even with a very small number of German Jews, the Party and the SS were unable to move as swiftly as they liked. In 1939, with the outbreak of war, German Jews were subjected to labour conscription, and sent either into arms factories or to labour camps, often working on the autobahns or other roadworks. About 20-25% of the Jewish population of Germany was so employed by 1941. The rest were mostly too elderly or unfit to work, due to the aged demographic profile of German Jews. It was by then impossible for German Jews to work on the free labour market, and they were not of course conscripted to the armed forces. Indeed, they replaced conscripts in the factories, especially in Berlin.

So when Hitler and the Nazi leadership decided in the autumn of 1941 to begin deporting Jews from the Reich, the question arose what to do with the labourers. The OKW negotiated with Eichmann that labourers were to be exempted from deportation. Thus, they remained behind while others were sent to Theresienstadt or the various destinations in the east. In September 1942, the issue arose again, in discussions between Hitler, Speer, Sauckel and Himmler, protocolled in Speer's minutes of his meetings with Hitler, and numerous other sources. Hitler ordered or demanded that the Reich be cleared of Jews. Sauckel sent out a directive to the labour offices, which can be found in the Nuremberg records as L-61 (correct ordering, Malle), and is also to be found in Labour Ministry files, announcing that Jewish workers were to be replaced by Poles and Russians. It was in this context that Himmler ordered the removal of Jews from KZs in the Reich.

However, Himmler did not control armaments enterprises. He could carry out the transfer from 'his' camps very easily; the Jewish armaments workers took longer to replace and outside interests were involved. They were not deported until February and March of 1943, in the so-called 'factory action', and the hope of the SS was that they could augument the workforce in the Auschwitz camp complex. They were replaced by Poles and Russians, in some cases quite literally, as train records show, the same locomotive would carry Jewish deportees east then pick up Polish workers to be brought west.

In Poland, labour policy for Jews was always different, because there was a local labour market and because Poland was a source of foreign workers for the Reich. The economic structure was also entirely different; and above all the Jewish share of the population was significantly larger. They were an economic factor of considerable significance, whether one is looking at the expropriation of their property and businesses, or their role in the labour market. Indeed, it was because Poles were sent to Germany that Jews were used as labourers. This led to intense struggles between the Wehrmacht and the SS over the fate of Polish Jewish workers in 1942. The SS wanted to deport them, the Wehrmacht wanted to keep them. The head of the Wehrmacht in the Generalgouvernement, was forced to resign over the issue in a power struggle.

Yet we find that despite the ideological and other pressures to deport the Jews from Poland, a significant number remained of whom the overwhelming majority were productively employed. The Lodz ghetto was the pet reservoir of labour for Gauleiter Greiser, who fended off Himmler's repeated attempts to take over the ghetto because it made Greiser a lot of money, and because the production of the ghetto industries was valued by the Wehrmacht. The same in the Generalgouvernement; where Jews were employed in so-called Ruestungsbetriebe, works given an 'armaments' status, such as the Drohobycz oilfields, or HASAG munitions factories, then they were kept working until the Soviets were within striking distance. Where Jews worked for purely civilian production, then they had no protection, and if they worked for the SS, then they were kept working only as long as Himmler wanted them to work. The Lublin district labour camps were closed down in November 1943, but not one of these camps was attached to an designated armaments enterprise. By contrast, the Cracow and Radom districts had numerous productive labour camps associated with armaments factories, such as the Skarzysko-Kamienna camp belonging to HASAG, and these remained in place until July-August 1944, when the Russians broke through to the Vistula.

Auschwitz became as is well known, a major industrial centre. There were munitions factories, the labour requirements of constructing the camp, and of course IG Farben which employed workers not only at Monowitz but also at numerous mines in the region, which were alloted sub-camps of Auschwitz. The Jews transferred from the KZs of the Reich largely ended up working at Monowitz. Indeed, it was precisely at the end of 1942 that Monowitz emerged as a separate camp; at the start of 1942 labourers walked from the Auschwitz main camp to the IG factory building site. In addition, Upper Silesia was also the site of the Organisation Schmelt camp complex, which employed 50,000 Jewish workers at the end of 1942. Eventually, these workers were absorbed into the Auschwitz and Gross-Rosen camp complexes.

There was a certain economic logic in channelling Jewish deportees to Upper Silesia; the region gave up Polish workers to the Reich, and it was difficult to bring Poles from elsewhere to the area, since the region was slated for 'Germanisation' and because Poles from other regions were being channelled to the Reich. However Jewish deportees were not the major economic factor in the Upper Silesian economy; they were considerably outnumbered by POWs, especially British and later on, Italian POWs. Some of these were also employed by IG Farben. The point being that Jewish labourers at Auschwitz were under the control of the SS, and could be used by Himmler and Oswald Pohl as a bargaining chip or enticement to IG and other firms, to invest in the SS controlled interest zone. Himmler and Pohl were quite happy to exploit some Jews as labourers for their own interests.

I am really not sure why you think that Jewish labour is so absurd. The phenomenon is amply documented and well researched, I have summarised points made dozens of times by numerous historians on the basis of very thick paper trails. Much of this is spelt out in Hilberg, but there is much more detail in Christopher Browning/Nazi policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers, in the monograph by Wolf Gruner on Jewish forced labour, in an essay by Ulrich Herbert published in 1993, in the works of Goetz Aly and Christian Gerlach, and in numerous studies of the labour market in Poland as well as the labour and concentration camps, by Polish and German historians One of the clearest summaries of the economic side can be found in Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction.

The statistics and proportions are fairly clear. Not more than 25% of German Jews were really put to productive labour in 1939-41, the majority were too elderly to be of use. In Poland, when the deportations began during Aktion Reinhard in 1942, about 15-20% of the Jewish population was spared deportation and held back as labourers. As of January 1943, there were about 500,000 Jews who had been citizens of prewar Poland still in ghettos and camps, almost all working productively. There had been nearly 3.5 million Jews in Poland on the outbreak of the war. At Auschwitz, it is well known that the transports arriving with deported Jews were subjected to selections for labour on the ramp, and on average about 25% of each transport was selected for labour, the rest, well, that is the point of disagreement.

I should have thought it was in revisionism's interests to emphasise Jewish labour, since if the Jews were entirely, always 100% dispensible, then there was little reason for the Nazis to keep any of them alive.

Malle
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:53 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Malle » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:35 am)

nickterry wrote:
Hi Malle,

You're correct about it being 3677-PS, there is not much consistency across authors as to whether they write it correctly or not; Orth didn't.

A -PS code means 'Paris, Storrey', referring to the captured documents unit headed up by Colonel Storrey of the US Army. So it has nothing to do with the Polish Main Commission. An actual German document (rather than an affidavit, government statement etc) given a -PS code was almost always from the holdings captured by the Americans, e.g. the documents used against Rosenberg, such as 025-PS, can all be found in NARA RG242, T454 and in Bundesarchiv R6. There are a few exceptions but all of the details of provenance and the date when the document was registered can be found on a 'staff evidence analysis' coversheet in the US National Archives. Some examples of those can be seen on the Harvard Nuremberg Trials website, if the IMT -PS series materials were reused in the Doctors' Trial.

I do not have jpeg scans, by and large, of documents, since I have almost always photocopied and latterly used scanners which produce PDFs, which would require a lot of effort to extract, so it's not worth it, I'm sorry.

The notations on this document indicate it was captured at Natzweiler, and it seems the Allies found quite a few KZ documents there. For example, at least one copy of the circular ordering the cutting of prisoners' hair in August 1942 was captured at Natzweiler. In many cases, it appears the same circular was then captured elsewhere.


Nickterry, thanks for your information about that. I'll start a new topic about my further questions.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2468
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:03 am)

Nick Terry wrote:
I should have thought it was in revisionism's interests to emphasise Jewish labour, since if the Jews were entirely, always 100% dispensible, then there was little reason for the Nazis to keep any of them alive.


Being indispensible isn't the reason Jews survived. The reason Jews survived is because there was no systematic plan to exterminate them. In many cases, the labor was for their benefit, since you can't have a nation doing all the blackmarket things that were going on in Warsaw. And since some traditional niches, such as moneylending won't work as something that many can do, in a Jewish nation. Nazi labor camps had a similarity with the farm called "Cream Ridge" an upstate New York Zionist farm meant to teach skills for Jews moving to Israel. The labor camps and the farm both taught skills. The book A Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto, published by the USHMM shows Jewish ghetto graphic design workshop products from the Kovno ghetto. Even the Jewish Police force we always hear about. Guess what that's about? Jewish self rule. Judenrat: Jewish self rule.

nickterry
Member
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Documents that Don’t Make Sense

Postby nickterry » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:48 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Nick Terry wrote:
I should have thought it was in revisionism's interests to emphasise Jewish labour, since if the Jews were entirely, always 100% dispensible, then there was little reason for the Nazis to keep any of them alive.


Being indispensible isn't the reason Jews survived. The reason Jews survived is because there was no systematic plan to exterminate them. In many cases, the labor was for their benefit, since you can't have a nation doing all the blackmarket things that were going on in Warsaw. And since some traditional niches, such as moneylending won't work as something that many can do, in a Jewish nation. Nazi labor camps had a similarity with the farm called "Cream Ridge" an upstate New York Zionist farm meant to teach skills for Jews moving to Israel. The labor camps and the farm both taught skills. The book A Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto, published by the USHMM shows Jewish ghetto graphic design workshop products from the Kovno ghetto. Even the Jewish Police force we always hear about. Guess what that's about? Jewish self rule. Judenrat: Jewish self rule.


I'm sorry, but under no circumstances can the Judenraete be interpreted as a matter of 'Jewish self-rule'. They were entirely subordinate to the German occupiers and served as the mouthpieces for the transmission of German orders. Moreover, they 'ruled' over incredibly narrow strips of territory known as ghettos, which is not generally recognised as a normal form of social organisation.

Nor did Nazi labour camps have anything whatsoever in common with Zionist farms. Such farms did exist, in Germany, in the early years of the Nazi regime, when the Transfer Agreement was in force and it was in the Nazis' interests to allow (not aid - no money was spent by the German government) German Jews to prepare for emigration under the Mandate quotas. But the Transfer Agreement was a dead letter on 3rd September 1939 and the labour camps set up after the outbreak of war were not preparing German Jews for a future life in a Jewish homeland, but there to serve German state interests - mainly on roadbuilding and armaments. As Jews were not allowed to serve in the armed forces because of the Nuremberg Laws, they were subjected to labour conscription. I explained that by 1941, 25% were so employed. Their wages were of course docked, taxes levied at a higher rate, and the conditions in the camps were often appalling by any rational standard, and thus the Jewish community as a whole hardly benefited.

The rest of the population was unemployed and mostly unemployable due to age. Yet it was this population, those disproportionately not fit for work, that was deported first. On strictly utilitarian grounds, keeping such a population alive went against everything that totalitarian regimes such as Nazi Germany believed in. 'He who does not work, shall not eat' was a slogan in both Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Yet you seem to be implying that the Nazis engaged in a massive program of welfare for Jews, for which there is absolutely no evidence.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 9 guests