Reliability of Thies Christophersen

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Wahrheit
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Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:47 pm)

A few days ago, several posters on this forum (Heydrich and FPB) cited and defended the testimony of Thies Christophersen as positive evidence against alleged exterminations at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The discussion can be seen here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5864&p=40119&hilit=Christophersen#p40119

Christophersen was stationed around Auschwitz throughout 1944. In his original work Auschwitz: A Personal Account, however, Christophersen clearly states several things which are blatantly false, or which show just how unreliable his testimony is.

1) In his book, Christophersen heard word from his mother and his maid that corpses were being burnt in the crematorium, and of a (probable) fire that constantly reflected off of the sky. Christophersen supposedly went in search for an answer (p.19):

So I went in the direction of Bielitz and there found a mining camp in which some inmates also worked. I travelled around the entire camp and examined all fire grates and all smoke stacks, but found nothing. I asked my colleagues; the answer...a shrug of the shoulder and "don't pay any attention to these rumors." Actually, there was a crematorium in Auschwitz, I was told, for there were 20,000 people there and any city of that size has a crematorium. Of course people died here as they did elsewhere, but not only inmaes at the camp. The wife of one of our supervisors had also died here. As far as I was concerned, tha was enough of an answer.


From the quote, it is clear that Christophersen was not personally familiar with Krema I (main camp), but rather had to rely on the statements of others. Also, as Christophersen limits his answer to a single crematorium, it is obvious that he was unaware of the four Birkenau crematoria. As these were theforemost sites of the gas chambers in Birkenau (and he doesn't even know they existed), just how credible are his conclusions that there were no gas chambers? Christophersen obviously did not go far enough in his search.

2) Christophersen goes on about the burning of corpses (p.20):

Olga loved to constantly chatter and her continual gossiping, rumouring and wondering as to wheher or not corpses were being burned (whilst I knew for sure there was no such happening) finally got on my nerves. This, plus her almost slavish servitude, brought us to a parting of the ways. She was given a new job, one I did not begrudge her.


While Christophersen states to have "knew for sure" that corpses were not being burned, the available aerial photography betrays his falsehood. Indeed, we just discussed such photographs on this forum a month ago.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5792

Revisionist heavyweight Carlo Mattogno also has stood by open-air cremations in 1944, as well as the fact that the Birkenau crematoria do (occasionally) smoke.

3) Christophersen flirts with crematoria-denial, stating (p.22)

After the war I saw a TV film about Auschwitz that showed a building with huge smoke stacks. I am very sorry, but when I left the camp at Auschwitz in December 1944, I did not see this building. I cannot imagine that these smoke stacks were built in the cold winter of 1944/45, but I suspect that these structures were erected after the war. It also seems implausible that, if they should have existed, the SS did not destroy them.


As no images of the "smoke stacks" are presented, it is hard to say which building(s) Christophersen is referring to. Anyway, it is well recognized by modern "revisionists" that the Nazi camp had five crematoria, none of which were forged or built into existence. This quote illusrates Christophersen's willingness to easily discard that which does not agree with his own (limited) view of the camp, despite a preponderance of evidence.

4) Furthermore, according to Christophersen, no one was shot at Auschwitz (p.22-23):

During the past few days I have heard a report on the radio according to which 4 million people are supposed to have been shot at Auschwitz. It is an absolute certainty that no people were shot at Auschwitz, because this we would have heard.


That this fact is disproven by camp records (especially those which state 'auf der Flucht erschossen') and is hardly questioned by most revisionists is noteworthy.

These are not "lies" (Heydrich choose to call them) put into Christophersen's mouth, as they are his documented statements. That he may have subsequently changed them (to allow some shootings, to move them outside camp, to allow some smoke, some open-air cremations of corpses, etc...) shows either:

1) the unreliability of his account
2) the deterioration or improvement of his memory, or
3) the influence that post-war information had on his own 'memory' and perception of the camp.

Either way you take it, Christophersen's account can NOT be used as a reliable indicator regarding the exterminations (or lack thereof), for he was NOT in a position to know.



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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Hannover » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:02 pm)

Implying that Christopherson is the best Revisionists can do is a strawman, he is not.

The fact that the absurd 'gas chambers' are impossible as alleged makes everything else besides the point.

Curious that Wahrheit thinks his interpretation of Christopherson is legit, while ignoring the absolutely laughable claims of so called 'eyewitnesses' and '$urvivor$'. We've debunked them all, notice the avoidance of that fact.

This is too easy.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 10 months ago (Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:03 am)

Nice post Wahrheit. I don't recall anyone taking a denier eyewitness to task in this fashion and find it interesting. Is it true Mattogno never uses him as a source?

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:03 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Is it true Mattogno never uses him as a source?


Thanks CCS. As for Mattogno, the only citation to Christophersen I have ever seen has been to his relevance to the origins of the revisionist-movement (not for what he did or did not see at A-B). He does so here: http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/8/3/ ... 1-302.html

I also did not find any reference to Christophersen in Mattogno's work on the crematoria ovens, nor on the open-air cremations, likely because Mattogno flatly contradicts Christophersen.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Malle » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:14 am)

Wahrheit wrote:In his original work Auschwitz: A Personal Account, however, Christophersen clearly states several things which are blatantly false, or which show just how unreliable his testimony is.


Wahrheit, I have been Google your title "Auschwitz: A Personal Account" and not able to find it. Can you provide us a link?
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:26 am)

Malle wrote:Wahrheit, I have been Google your title "Auschwitz: A Personal Account" and not able to find it. Can you provide us a link?


Malle,

I'm afraid the book is not available online. One can order it (Amazon has it, though it's certainly not worth $50). I acquired it from a library. Christophersen's testimony at the second Zuendel trial (as reported, not transcripts) can be found in Kulaszka's account of the trial, but that is about as much as your going to get. In the earlier linked to thread, Heydrich also l gave an audio file of an interview he had.

Here is the Kulaszka link, though you might have it already:
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/dsmrd ... ersen.html

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:21 am)

Wahrehit actually wrote the following above:

While Christophersen states to have "knew for sure" that corpses were not being burned, the available aerial photography betrays his falsehood. Indeed, we just discussed such photographs on this forum a month ago.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5792


What "falsehood?" You are the liar, Wahrheit, once again. There is absolutely nothing about that smoke that shows that it is from corpses being burned. Nothing! CCS ahould get his head checked also. Once again, you Wahrheit have absolutely no idea as to what you talking about or even looking at. You are obviously grasping at every conceivable straw to try to make any insane kind of anti-Nazi argument.

BTW, in this picture as in ALL of the aerial recon photos there is not the slightest whisper of smoke from any of the Krema chimneys.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:54 am)

Fritz Berg: calling Wahrheit a liar and saying I should get my head checked is out of line and against forum rules. Similarly your whole sane/insane/sanity test is an ad hominem attack also.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:07 am)

So what? Didn't Wahrheit call Thies Christophersen a Liar?

So don't be a cry-baby. Life is tough!

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Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:33 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:What "falsehood?" You are the liar, Wahrheit, once again. There is absolutely nothing about that smoke that shows that it is from corpses being burned. Nothing! CCS ahould get his head checked also. Once again, you Wahrheit have absolutely no idea as to what you talking about or even looking at. You are obviously grasping at every conceivable straw to try to make any insane kind of anti-Nazi argument.


Well, Mattogno agrees that corpses were cremated outdoors, which he acknowledges did emit smoke, based on the aerial photographs, in addition to other evidence. Images of these cremations were captured by Allied aerial photography. His disagreement arises from his estimate on the possible number of cremated corpses.

Also, I never called Christophersen a "liar," which you try to use to justify your atacks against me. I believe Christophersen could have been speaking accurately with his observations, but I think it's very clear that he drew false conclusions from his observations; conclusions for which he would not be in a position to know. As such, his testimony is unreliable. Never have I used the words "liar" or "lie" to describe him.


BTW, in this picture as in ALL of the aerial recon photos there is not the slightest whisper of smoke from any of the Krema chimneys.


I'm sorry, but this is plain wrong. In Mattogno's Auschwitz: Open Air Incinerations, he produces a photograph showing smoke coming from Crematorium III. On page 64, Mattogno states:

Robert Jan van Pelt fully agrees with my point of view and substantiates it
with arguments taken from the “history of cremation technology.”249 Also, the
fact that the Birkenau crematoria, when operating, emitted smoke, and lots of
it, is even evidenced by an air photo, which no scholar has yet discussed: that
of August 20, 1944,250 which shows a dense column of smoke rising in a spiral
from the chimney of crematorium III.251

250 Cf. document 34.
251 Cf. document 35.


The referenced images can be located in the documents section of his book: http://vho.org/dl/ENG/aoai.pdf

So to say that the crematoria never smoked is shown to be wrong by the aerial photographic evidence.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Heydrich » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:08 am)

@ "Wahrheit"

You did forget to post Mattognos conclusions:

If the story of a mass extermination at Birkenau were true, the air photos
would show:

– cremation trenches with a minimum surface area of 5,900 square meters in the area both around “Bunker 2” and around crematorium V,

– piles of earth excavated from the trenches with a total volume of at least 6,500 cubic meters,

– a supply of at least 1,570 tons of wood for the cremation of May 31,corresponding to a pile of wood 50 m long, 35 m wide and 2 m high,
i.e. a total surface area larger than crematoria IV and V put together,

– dozens of trucks for the transportation of the wood and the removal of the ash,

– a camp railway with flatcars for the transportation of the corpses from the gas chambers to the cremation trenches,

– a concrete platform 60 by 15 meters (or 900 sqm) i.e. a surface area larger than crematorium V in the yard of this very crematorium,

– a fence made of branches running south and west of crematorium V, some 150 m long,

– smoking chimneys at the crematoria.

Actually, however, the air photos show:

– a smoking area on the ground of some 50 sqm near crematorium V and no trace of trenches or smoke around “Bunker 2,”

– no trace of any earth excavated from the trenches and piled up near them,

– no trace of any stock of wood for the cremation,

– no trace of any trucks,

– no trace of a camp railway,

– no trace of of a concrete platform 60 by 15 meters,

– no trace of a hedge made of branches allegedly some 150 meters long to the south and west of crematory V;

– a single smoke plume rising from the chimney of crematorium III visible only on the photograph of August 20, 1944.

All the documentary and photographic evidence examined in this study converges on a single and irrefutable conclusion:
The story of the gassing and the cremation of the Hungarian Jews at Birkenau
has no foundation in history. It is a simple propaganda story invented and
structured on the basis of the elements provided by the real but insignificant
and sporadic cremation of registered detainees in the yard of crematorium V.

This does not contradict anything Thies Christopherson said in the interview I posted earlier.
Conclusion: Christopherson is a million times more reliable than you.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:14 am)

Wahrheit wrote:

While Christophersen states to have "knew for sure" that corpses were not being burned, the available aerial photography betrays his falsehood.


I think "his falsehood" here in this context is the same as a lie.

Once again for any sane readers, the aerial photos do not show that any corpses were being burned in the open. It is Wahrheit who is lying when he insists they do. Some outdoor burning of corpses may have occurred from time to time, especially in 1942 before Kremas 2 thru 5 were built, which should be no surprise--but that is NOT proven by any aerial photos, nearly all of which were taken in 1944 long after the Kremas were available.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:23 am)

Heydrich wrote:@ "Wahrheit"

You did forget to post Mattognos conclusions:


No, as I stated, "His disagreement arises from his estimate on the possible number of cremated corpses."

Nothing you state (which deviates off-topic and does not come back to the original post, against forum rules) contradicts my succient description of his opinion. He believes corpses were cremated outdoors, but that the numbers involved don't match up to what has been alleged.

This does not contradict anything Thies Christopherson said in the interview I posted earlier.
Conclusion: Christopherson is a million times more reliable than you.


With the degree of memory's fallability, it does not surprise me that things he recalled changed after time; however, I believe that the most independent statements that Christophersen made, reflecting closely to what he actually observed, are more likely to be found in his 1974 book, rather than an interview in 1992. As with other witnesses, Christophersen was prone to outside influences, which therefore changed his own testimony about the camps. Had everyone also agreed that no corpses were cremated outdoors, it is highly doubtful that he would have "remembered" this aspect, which he had emphatically denied earlier.

Of course, that "revisionists" often use such changes in a witness' testimony to discredit the entire statement goes without saying. I find it interesting that you are sticking to the single, latest testimony of Christophersen, as opposed to his earlier statements. Indeed, you haven't even offered any defense for his prior statements, which clearly contradict his later one.
Last edited by Wahrheit on Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Wahrheit » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:30 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Wahrheit wrote:

While Christophersen states to have "knew for sure" that corpses were not being burned, the available aerial photography betrays his falsehood.


I think "his falsehood" here in this context is the same as a lie.


No, it is not (nor was it my intention). It was an untrue/false statement, which is a definiton of falsehood. If I wanted to call Christophersen a liar, I would have done so, and not couched it in terms of his false statements.

I'm sure many revisionists would not take well to you calling Mattogno a liar regarding open cremations in 1944. To say that the aerial photographs are the only evidence is also incorrect. I do suggest checking out Mattogno's book (I imagine you wouldn't bother for non-revisionists).

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Re: Reliability of Thies Christophersen

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:10 pm)

Thies Christophersen never claimed to have known everything about Auschwitz--but it is reasonable to believe that if there had been any mass gassings, he would have certainly known about them. He was bold enough and forthright enough to say that he never heard about anything of the sort. Judge Wilhem Staeglich also said that.

Once again for any sane readers, the aerial photos do NOT show that any corpses were being burned in the open. It is Wahrheit who is lying when he insists they do. Some outdoor burning of corpses may have occurred from time to time, especially in 1942 before Kremas 2 thru 5 were built, which should be no surprise--but that is NOT proven by any aerial photos, nearly all of which were taken in 1944 long after the Kremas were available.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.


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