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Re: Bad News...

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:16 pm)

nickterry wrote:I would advise everyone to read the actual text of the EU Council Framework Decision, the clauses relating to the denial of genocides and crimes against humanity (not just the Holocaust) have clearly been watered down due to the opposition of Britain and I believe, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, which are all countries without explicit 'simple' anti-Holocaust denial laws on the model of Germany, France or Switzerland

1. Each Member State shall take the measures necessary to ensure that the following intentional conduct is punishable:

(a) publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin;

(b) the commission of an act referred to in point (a) by public dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material;

(c) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in Articles 6, 7 and 8 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin when the conduct is carried out in a manner likely to incite to violence or hatred against such a group or a member of such a group;

(d) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal appended to the London Agreement of 8 August 1945, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin when the conduct is carried out in a manner likely to incite to violence or hatred against such a group or a member of such a group.

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1, Member States may choose to punish only conduct which is either carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting.


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 913:EN:NOT


I'll never understand why people refuse to see the big picture of any law against the questioning of "historical fact". If someone is going to actually take the time to argue the wording of the law instead of the law itself, then they're probably too far gone. Notice how the very "specifics" of Nick Terry's argument are the most open to interpretation by the lawmakers themselves? I don't suppose any Revisionists will be deciding if someone is guilty of breaking such laws? Hmmmmmm?

Could a Revisionist get a fair trial with a jury of 12 Jews while being tried for a crime literally created by Jews? Just who decides what is considered "hatred"? Such loose wording leaves the door wide open for more "Well, what we meant to say was..." evidence.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:19 pm)

Sorry. I happened to forget another reason why I believe in the Holocaust. It was only the re-editing of my history research essay on the sacking and massacre of Jerusalem 1099 that reminded me. (I am only working between the years of 1096 and 1099 or else I would have to write a book) Germany already had a precedent for killing Jewish people. We see in this in the Jewish slaughter by Count Emich of Flonheim on three separe occasions in Mainz Germany, killing hundreds prior to Crusading and killing more Jews.

Also, we Europeans have a tendency to slaughter especially for religious reasons as seen in 1) the sacking of Jerusalem where some 40,000 Muslim and Jewish people were killed. The number 70,000 is no longer believed 2) The English killing and deportation of Irish along with further persecution if you were Catholic, 3) Spanish Inqusition, 4) The Show Trials, Gulags and Red Terror (I mean Lenin here as well as Stalin), 5) The Irish Catholics killing roughly 2,000 Protestants in Ulster just prior to the Civil War between King Charles and Parliament (The number 200,000 is a gross overreaction as there were not enough Protestants in the WHOLE of Ireland to support that number and the population was not big enough to sustain such a loss and survive. The story was exaggerated on the way back to England), 6) the Persecution of Catholics AND Protestants by Henry VIII and his daughters in particular Mary Tudor, 7) Italian persecution of Catholics in the Roman Empire such as throwing them to the lions and crufication and 8 ) Harold Shipman, most profilic killer of all times.There are several more examples you can give. That is just a handful but it shows that we are more than capable and are often more than willing to kill.

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”


P.D James. “Death in Holy Orders”. (She did not write it, she mentions it in the aforementioned book but unfortunately I lent out the book so I cannot get the name out of the philosopher who said said quote.) Remember what was on SS belts. God is with me in German.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Pappy Yokum » 8 years 10 months ago (Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:11 pm)

athenarena wrote:Also, we Europeans have a tendency to slaughter especially for religious reasons


A think a more accurate description is the slaughter is done for political reasons disguised as religious reasons. The Nazis were not religious in the sense they believed in a god or in Jesus. They were not motivated by the myth of the end times or propelling the timetable for the return of Jesus. Nor were they about punishing Jews for deicide. Hitler states clearly in Mein Kampf that he considers Jews to belong to a race and not to a religion. The Nazis believed the Jewish leadership betrayed Germany during The Great War. They believed they could not be assimilated into German culture. They believed Jews could not be trusted and had to leave Germany.
It was political reasoning that motivated the Nazis, not religious ideas.

athenarena wrote:Remember what was on SS belts. God is with me in German.


The phrase "Gott mit uns" was on the Wehrmacht buckles. The SS buckles read "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" or "My honor is called loyalty." Disloyalty was what the Nazis accused the Jews of being. It wasn't because they killed Christ.

The "Gott mit uns" slogan was used in World War I by the regular German army as well. It means "God with us." The English replied with their own slogan: "We've got mittens too!"

I agree that politicians persecuting people for their religious convictions is not new. On the other hand, simply because an accusation which seems to fit a previously established pattern doesn't mean every accusation in that pattern is true. Many women are raped every year, but that doesn't mean every woman who claims she was raped actually was.

The list of instances of people faking their own persecution is a pretty long one. The police investigate and find the person wanted to play the victim and get sympathy and attention. They also wanted to accuse someone else of hating them for something other than their own strange personality. If you want examples, Google can provide them. They range from the finding of supposed threatening objects, to vandalism, to graffiti, to self-mutilation, to suicide.

What these fake incidents have in common is the people perpetrating them believed they fit a pattern that made their story of persecution credible.

Even if a story fits a pattern, each one has to stand on its own merits. It is because a story fits a pattern is why it may have be concocted in the first place. Fitting a pattern makes it superficially credible. On the other hand we are also told the Holocaust is unique and the victims of it are special and everyone sharing a similar cultural background can share in the benefits of being a victim no matter where they were at the time of the persecution.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:09 am)

Pappy Yokum wrote:
A think a more accurate description is the slaughter is done for political reasons disguised as religious reasons. The Nazis were not religious in the sense they believed in a god or in Jesus. They were not motivated by the myth of the end times or propelling the timetable for the return of Jesus. Nor were they about punishing Jews for deicide. Hitler states clearly in Mein Kampf that he considers Jews to belong to a race and not to a religion. The Nazis believed the Jewish leadership betrayed Germany during The Great War. They believed they could not be assimilated into German culture. They believed Jews could not be trusted and had to leave Germany.
It was political reasoning that motivated the Nazis, not religious ideas.


That belief system about the "Jewish betrayal"? Yeah, I know it. Hitler is part of my European module for history.

As for examples 2 and 3 that I gave, they were very much religious than political. The Penal Laws were done to oppress the majority so the minority could rule and because they would not conform to the Church of England. Spanish Inquisition? You were pretty much tortured and killed if you were a different religion than Catholic in particular if you were Protestant.

As for political reasons for the Nazis, I completely and one hundred per cent agree with you there.

The phrase "Gott mit uns" was on the Wehrmacht buckles. The SS buckles read "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" or "My honor is called loyalty." Disloyalty was what the Nazis accused the Jews of being. It wasn't because they killed Christ.


Well then my history teacher was wrong as she showed us SS belts that said God is with us.

What these fake incidents have in common is the people perpetrating them believed they fit a pattern that made their story of persecution credible.

Even if a story fits a pattern, each one has to stand on its own merits. It is because a story fits a pattern is why it may have be concocted in the first place. Fitting a pattern makes it superficially credible. On the other hand we are also told the Holocaust is unique and the victims of it are special and everyone sharing a similar cultural background can share in the benefits of being a victim no matter where they were at the time of the persecution.


Brought up in a legal household here. So what I was describing was a precedent, showing more credibility to the Holocaust that one argument on the chief rabbi of Ireland thread was lacking. The Holocaust is both unique and unfortunately normal. We are seeing ever increasing numbers of genocides either coming forth or being committed. Like I have said, what I have shown and mentioned in previous posts is the tip of the iceberg. We are a brutal race.

Each does stand on its own merits. I agree with that.

As for people faking their own persecution, I know of cases, I have followed cases, I have studied cases on these. I also know cases of people faking that persecution to lead police on a red herring case to cover up their own crimes.

Fair enough about the concoction but most of those Jews left in Germany were not scholars, were not well educated. Those fled. So how would they have had the knowledge to concoct this? To list what I have listed you need a broad and pretty thorough knowledge of history spanning nearly a millenia. Many if not almost all did not have that education.

Thanks for your points and being very polite. I really appreciate that.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:54 pm)

athenarena wrote:Well then my history teacher was wrong as she showed us SS belts that said God is with us.

According to Wikipedia, the phrase had a long history ante-dating the Nazis. If you Google "Gott mit uns" and click on Images, you will find support for your assertion that it was also used by the Nazis.

athenarena wrote:Fair enough about the concoction but most of those Jews left in Germany were not scholars, were not well educated. Those fled. So how would they have had the knowledge to concoct this? To list what I have listed you need a broad and pretty thorough knowledge of history spanning nearly a millenia. Many if not almost all did not have that education.

Though a number of people posting on this forum put forward a simplistic view that "it was all a Jewish conspiracy", it is not the general picture put forward by the actual historians. Butz, Graf, Porter, Dalton etc argue for a more complex origin involving British and Soviet propaganda, in which Jewish organizations were happy to help. They may or may not have believed the propaganda, and probably didn't care too much one way or the other. It was the worst war in history and Truth, as always, was the first casualty.

I see that you are young and new to Revisionism. That was not intended to be patronising; you are clearly well-read and express yourself well. How much do you already know about Revisionism so far? I don't intend to try and convert you, but you have shown a commendable willingness to look at both sides, something which those in power try very hard to stop you doing. I and others on the forum can recommend sources of information that can be found on the Web.

You have probably been told that Revisionists are racist, antisemitic Nazi sympathisers. Some are, though not, generally, the historians. It would be surprising if such people were not attracted to the idea that the Nazis were not guilty of the horrific crime normally ascribed to them. But we are not concerned with opinions but with issues of historical fact and 2+2=4 even if the Devil himself says so. Though the majority of Revisionists are on the political Right, the founder, Rassinier, was a Socialist and a resistance fighter who was imprisoned in Buchenwald. Numerous other socialists and liberals have been convinced that the mainstream story is defective. (I am one.) In any case, you can subject the story to critical analysis, perhaps forming doubts on some aspects without automatically embracing the opposite extreme. The important thing is to be always sceptical: to demand hard factual evidence, and to reject emotional manipulation.

You will find that the Revisionist historians present their case more calmly and factually, and with more concrete evidence in their support, than the mainstream historians.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby TreeHuggingHippie » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:09 pm)

athenarena wrote:Sorry. I happened to forget another reason why I believe in the Holocaust. It was only the re-editing of my history research essay on the sacking and massacre of Jerusalem 1099 that reminded me. (I am only working between the years of 1096 and 1099 or else I would have to write a book) Germany already had a precedent for killing Jewish people. We see in this in the Jewish slaughter by Count Emich of Flonheim on three separe occasions in Mainz Germany, killing hundreds prior to Crusading and killing more Jews.

Also, we Europeans have a tendency to slaughter especially for religious reasons as seen in 1) the sacking of Jerusalem where some 40,000 Muslim and Jewish people were killed. The number 70,000 is no longer believed 2) The English killing and deportation of Irish along with further persecution if you were Catholic, 3) Spanish Inqusition, 4) The Show Trials, Gulags and Red Terror (I mean Lenin here as well as Stalin), 5) The Irish Catholics killing roughly 2,000 Protestants in Ulster just prior to the Civil War between King Charles and Parliament (The number 200,000 is a gross overreaction as there were not enough Protestants in the WHOLE of Ireland to support that number and the population was not big enough to sustain such a loss and survive. The story was exaggerated on the way back to England), 6) the Persecution of Catholics AND Protestants by Henry VIII and his daughters in particular Mary Tudor, 7) Italian persecution of Catholics in the Roman Empire such as throwing them to the lions and crufication and 8 ) Harold Shipman, most profilic killer of all times.There are several more examples you can give. That is just a handful but it shows that we are more than capable and are often more than willing to kill.

That is true about religions, but I think it's a weak argument for or against the Holocaust. You might as well say "I believe in the Holocaust because people have always killed each other."

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:30 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
I see that you are young and new to Revisionism. That was not intended to be patronising; you are clearly well-read and express yourself well. How much do you already know about Revisionism so far? I don't intend to try and convert you, but you have shown a commendable willingness to look at both sides, something which those in power try very hard to stop you doing. I and others on the forum can recommend sources of information that can be found on the Web.


Yeah, I am young only seventeen years of age and pretty new. I do believe however that the numbers for the Jewish deaths was exaggerated when the most accurate primary documents that I have seen put the maximum at 5.1 million. It seems a little absurd that at least 6 million could be killed in the better part of three years. Although I do believe there was a Holocaust, I do not think of it only as a Jewish Holocaust but a Holocaust in which anyone who did not meet the criteria of the Nazi ideals were killed, Poles, Gypsies, Soviets, homosexuals, mentally and physically disabled, the latter mostly through euthansia. We do have propaganda reels from the Nazis on that one at least.

I do not take what you as patronising as both are plain facts.

Revisionism I do not admittedly know much of. It is never mentioned in our module on European History. I stumbled across the idea actually through a person on youtube who sent me here. I do not think it is fair, just or right that someone has an opinion and they should not be able to speak it. I am always interested in what somebody else has to say to be bluntly honest. Although we have chosen a platform that does not enshrine our rights (the internet has no legal document that upholds rights). I will not however, listen to someone who is rude to me. Then they do not get my respect or my ears.

You have probably been told that Revisionists are racist, antisemitic Nazi sympathisers. Some are, though not, generally, the historians. It would be surprising if such people were not attracted to the idea that the Nazis were not guilty of the horrific crime normally ascribed to them. But we are not concerned with opinions but with issues of historical fact and 2+2=4 even if the Devil himself says so. Though the majority of Revisionists are on the political Right, the founder, Rassinier, was a Socialist and a resistance fighter who was imprisoned in Buchenwald. Numerous other socialists and liberals have been convinced that the mainstream story is defective. (I am one.) In any case, you can subject the story to critical analysis, perhaps forming doubts on some aspects without automatically embracing the opposite extreme. The important thing is to be always sceptical: to demand hard factual evidence, and to reject emotional manipulation.

You will find that the Revisionist historians present their case more calmly and factually, and with more concrete evidence in their support, than the mainstream historians


I have heard that yes. Like I said, I believe the Holocaust happened but the Jews although the main victim were not the only victims and they should be mentioned as well. I also believe death chambers existed but did not kill on the level they are prescribed to have killed and death by overworking and starvation was the main killer. I also believe that although we question and analysis it however such things as the Nuremburg Trials and the Holocaust can be attributed to causing postive things like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Convention, the United Nations etc. and we shoould remember that.

I am slighly conservative myself but admire James Connolly a Scottish Socialist who died for his role in the 1916 Easter Rising strapped to a chair because he did not have the strength to stand to be executed from his horrific injuries he sustained fighting.

I like hard factual evidence, might explain one reasons as to why I want to be a criminal barrister. A medium should always be found instead of going from one extreme to another. Just on the cyanide testing in Auschwitz, was other cyanide compounds such as hydrogen cyanide taken into account as cyanide is an unstable molecule that bonds with most natural elements especially hydrogen? That could lend credence as to why there was little cyanide found.

TreeHuggingHippie wrote:
That is true about religions, but I think it's a weak argument for or against the Holocaust. You might as well say "I believe in the Holocaust because people have always killed each other."


Precedent, that is what I was saying. Precedent leads to a credbility and authority in your argument henceforth make it more believable. It is one of many reasons I have. There is even one that I have not even disclosed to this forum due to how personal it is. However, thank you for your point.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:03 pm)

athenarena wrote:Revisionism I do not admittedly know much of. It is never mentioned in our module on European History.

ROTFL (as they say on the InterWeb :wink:). No and I'm sure your history teacher will be fired pretty fast if it is. Be very careful if you want to raise the topic in class.

This is a good start to find out what Revisionism is about. The author and site owner, Germar Rudolf, is a German graduate chemist who has just spent 5 years (I think that's correct) in jail for publishing Revisionist literature.
http://vho.org/Intro/GB/index.html
The main killer was disease. But hard labor and inadequate rations will have played their part. But remember that rations were low for everybody in Poland at the time, especially after the invasion of the Soviet Union when the Soviets operated a scorched earth policy and the population of the newly occupied territories had to be fed.

MODERATOR, this is going OT. Should we start a new thread or take it to PM?

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:24 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
ROTFL (as they say on the InterWeb :wink:). No and I'm sure your history teacher will be fired pretty fast if it is. Be very careful if you want to raise the topic in class.


Nah, they would not fire her. She is the best history teacher they got and the students love her. We are doing the American history module at the moment. So I will not be bringing it up.

This is a good start to find out what Revisionism is about. The author and site owner, Germar Rudolf, is a German graduate chemist who has just spent 5 years (I think that's correct) in jail for publishing Revisionist literature.
http://vho.org/Intro/GB/index.html
The main killer was disease. But hard labor and inadequate rations will have played their part. But remember that rations were low for everybody in Poland at the time, especially after the invasion of the Soviet Union when the Soviets operated a scorched earth policy and the population of the newly occupied territories had to be fed.


As far as I can tell and this could be wrong, the site seems to say that there was suffering by the Jews by the Nazis but such things as the Nazi Gas chambers are a falsehood and it really was not an industrially planned thing and more of an epidemic from all factors listed above.

It has been said that in Bergen Belsen -one of the camps known not to have a gas chamber- typhoid and dystentery really did the damage.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Pappy Yokum » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:53 pm)

athenarena wrote:Well then my history teacher was wrong as she showed us SS belts that said God is with us.


It would not be the first time a history teacher got something wrong. I looked via Google as suggested. I saw buckles with "Gott mit uns" featuring a crown motif and and a German eagle motif, and a German eagle & swastika motif, and a deaths head motif. Nazi Germany incorporated the swastika into the regular military things and the deaths head is also a motif that predates the Nazis. The "Gott mit uns" buckle with a deaths head is labeled to belonging to the Waffen-SS. These were the military SS vs the Nazi police SS. I am not saying such doesn't exist, but I didn't see any buckles with the SS runes and that motto. I don't pretend to be a Nazi regalia expert. My point is the motto predates the Nazis as belonging to the German military tradition as does the skull and cross bones.

The Nazi party wanted to be identified as being Germany, so incorporating their symbols into traditional German ones and vice versa was only natural.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought your point by bringing up the "Gott mit uns" slogan was to show that Nazi persecution of the Jews was religiously motivated.
I disagree. The slogan is part of German culture, particularly German military tradition - like the slogan "In God We Trust" in the U.S.

athenarena wrote:We are a brutal race.

In the words of Tonto to the Lone Ranger: Who is "we," pale face?

People like to identify with the state like their school or local sports team. We blah blah this and we blah blah that. Speak for yourself. This is good a way to shift or dilute blame. None of these crimes is possible without the coercive power of the state. Only the state can steal the resources needed to perpetrate such things. I don't see the state as representing me. I am not a brutal person. I don't believe the average person of any race is either. Power is a corrupting force. Having it turns people into sadists and it is generally the state that provides that power. Oh, they are very good in rationalizing the brutality. As you have noted, they will sometimes incorporate religion into it because people have been taught not to question that, or their leaders - as the slogan of the SS "my honor is named loyalty" illustrates.

People also mistakenly believe the state provides them with security. Therefore trust in it is essential. It's a lie. It is all a lie. Unless you get a government paycheck, you and it have nothing in common.

athenarena wrote:Fair enough about the concoction but most of those Jews left in Germany were not scholars, were not well educated. Those fled. So how would they have had the knowledge to concoct this? To list what I have listed you need a broad and pretty thorough knowledge of history spanning nearly a millenia. Many if not almost all did not have that education.


I understand your point of view, but I disagree with the premise that uneducated Jews left in Germany concocted it. Those who concocted it were generally not in Germany. It was concocted by very well-educated men well-versed in Jewish culture, particularly those who use paranoia to keep members from assimilating into surrounding populations. The story started out as war-time lies, like the "Saddam's soldiers killed the premature babies and stole the incubators" story or the "German soldiers cut off hands of Belgian children" story from WWI. It started as propaganda stories to both bolster morale at home and undermine that of the enemy. Nothing makes someone feel justified in killing someone else like a good atrocity story.

Again, it was only through the power of the state that the Holocaust story got and has retained its legs. After the war, displaced Jews, though hardly any claim personal knowledge of gas chambers, did lose contact with their antebellum families and communities, believed it. It also gave them a handy rational reason for working for the Germans the whole war even if they didn't believe it. People know what they know from personal experience, but they believe what they are told by trusted sources. What the displaced Jews had to do after the war was take what they knew and reject what they were told, or try to reconcile the two.

The truth is a strong central state will kill millions of people and blame their victims for it. The myth is a strong, moral state is needed to stop a strong immoral state or to keep an immoral state from forming. All of them are immoral. It is the nature of the beast. A victor, however, always likes to spin the outcome of conflict as their virtue having won the day. To bolster that idea, the defeated has to be portrayed as a monster, and the victor's cause just. This is theme common in both politics and religion. The Holocaust story, whether true or not, serves to support the idea that the U.S. is virtuous and must travel the world killing monsters, like Hitler, before they have the opportunity to do evil. Rah! Rah! Rah! Yeah! Team!

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:36 am)

athenarena wrote:As far as I can tell and this could be wrong, the site seems to say that there was suffering by the Jews by the Nazis but such things as the Nazi Gas chambers are a falsehood and it really was not an industrially planned thing and more of an epidemic from all factors listed above.

More or less. The gas chamber myth arises from the very real gas chambers where Zyklon B was used to kill the lice which carry typhus. Lice were also the reason for shaving heads and for showers.

athenarena wrote:It has been said that in Bergen Belsen -one of the camps known not to have a gas chamber- typhoid and dystentery really did the damage.

After the war all the camps in Germany were alleged to be "Death Camps", but no reputable historian suggests that today. It is undisputed that those people were victims of disease and deprivation in the chaotic conditions of the last months of the war. But the media still trot out the pictures as part of "the Holocaust" for their propaganda effect.

athenarena wrote:I like hard factual evidence...

And there is almost none to support the extermination thesis. There is only a relatively small amount (dozens rather than thousands) of largely mutually- and self-contradictory eye-witness testimony, which as you know, or will soon find out if you study law, is the least reliable form of evidence. The mainstream is very selective about which witnesses it accepts and many of the witnesses were controlled by the Soviet or Polish Communist regimes, or the testimony is from Germans held in custody and subject to at the very least "robust interrogation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

The Nuremberg trials have an undeserved reputation with the general public who have never looked into them. In reality they were victor's justice. There was a thread earlier this year with some useful links:
http://codoh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5957&sid=56124ad80031de14b229ea28c237fea5

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Veritas » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:59 am)

Kingfisher wrote:After the war all the camps in Germany were alleged to be "Death Camps", but no reputable historian suggests that today.

And there were plenty of "eye-witnesses" for those camps as well. It seems there is nothing for which one wouldn't find "eye-witnesses", be it UFOs, angels, the devil or whatever.

Kingfisher wrote:There is only a relatively small amount (dozens rather than thousands) of largely mutually- and self-contradictory eye-witness testimony

As there were for the camps which nowadays are not alleged to have been gaschambers. They even had an ϟϟ-man's "testimony" (Franz Ziereis) for all kinds of things made out of humans. Of course none of these items ever showed up. And those that did turned out to be ordinary everyday items, like the lampshade, or vanished afterwards, like the shrunken heads.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:27 am)

Veritas wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:After the war all the camps in Germany were alleged to be "Death Camps", but no reputable historian suggests that today.

And there were plenty of "eye-witnesses" for those camps as well. It seems there is nothing for which one wouldn't find "eye-witnesses", be it UFOs, angels, the devil or whatever.


This is interesting to me. Could you provide me with the names of some of those witnesses who saw gas chambers at camps where historians say there were none now?
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Malle » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:13 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:This is interesting to me. Could you provide me with the names of some of those witnesses who saw gas chambers at camps where historians say there were none now?


If we take Mauthausen, let us look on the eyewitness no 1, the camp commander Franz Ziereis. From http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100&p=506&hilit=Franz+Ziereis#p506 “Hilberg agreed Ziereis was confessing to gas chambers at Mauthausen”. He also confessed to 4,000,000 gassed at Hartheim (T4). All this according to Simon Wiesenthal in S. Wiesenthal, KZ Mauthausen (1946)
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

athenarena
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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:34 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
After the war all the camps in Germany were alleged to be "Death Camps", but no reputable historian suggests that today. It is undisputed that those people were victims of disease and deprivation in the chaotic conditions of the last months of the war. But the media still trot out the pictures as part of "the Holocaust" for their propaganda effect.


I for one have always called them concentration camps. Never death camps. Besides why allege them in Gemany when most that still survive are outside of Germany? Makes no sense whatsoever. It is can also be undisputated that they were moved due to political and/or religious reasons resulting in an isolated spot of deaths of these victims making what we know as the Holocaust. Correct?

Kingfisher wrote:
And there is almost none to support the extermination thesis. There is only a relatively small amount (dozens rather than thousands) of largely mutually- and self-contradictory eye-witness testimony, which as you know, or will soon find out if you study law, is the least reliable form of evidence. The mainstream is very selective about which witnesses it accepts and many of the witnesses were controlled by the Soviet or Polish Communist regimes, or the testimony is from Germans held in custody and subject to at the very least "robust interrogation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

The Nuremberg trials have an undeserved reputation with the general public who have never looked into them. In reality they were victor's justice. There was a thread earlier this year with some useful links:
http://codoh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 28c237fea5


I know, eyewitness statements are the least liked form of evidence to me. True, true. However, places such as former Czechslovakia only became Communist in 1948 due to a coup d'etat. The other satellite states 1945ish.

I must look at that thread because I actually watched the primary footage of the Nuremburg Trials. I do not like mass trials to begin with. One at a time people, one at a time.

NSNO,
Athenarena


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