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AWoLsco
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Re: Bad News...

Postby AWoLsco » 8 years 8 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:58 pm)

for Athenarena



Letter from Auschwitz

How do Holocaust believers explain this? The Auschwitz "death" camp also had a post office. Here is a letter that was sent from the post office.

My Address: Prisoner
Name: Josef Novy
Date of Birth: 27th April 1911
Prisoner Number: 73,034. Block 9a, Concentration Camp Auschwitz, Post Office II

Auschwitz, 14th February 1943

Quote:
My dear ones!

I’m in good health, and I’m alright - I hope the same applies to you. I’ve received 3 letters and 6 parcels from you recently - all in good shape. Letters and parcels may not be sent registered, just send the parcels as per the first ones. The first parcels made me very happy - particularly the chocolate honey and the many sweets - please send more like that. My brother Jarde and aunt Milka could also send me packages - I would be very grateful. Send the money as I previously asked you, i.e., RM 40.- per month.

From now on I shall only be allowed to write once a month. Your lovely letters are a source of great happiness, and I look forward to receiving more. Please don’t forget to send me garlic, onions, and enough sugar. I thank you for everything you have done for me, and I hope that you will not forget about me. I’m always with you in my thoughts, and am looking forward to seeing you again. Please give my regards to all friends and relations, especially the Faila family.

Your thankful son, Josef

PS. You can send parcels frequently.

Of course this could be a fake by the German authorities, but I don't think so. The Red Cross visited Auschwitz frequently,(contrary to popular perception)approximately monthly. Their main concern was that their parcels were arriving and reaching the designated recipients. In fact, they uncovered "irregularities" ie evidence of bullying and criminal activity amongst camp inmates and the SS got a ticking off for failing to maintain camp discipline!

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:41 pm)

athenarena wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:
Why? You have not answered the points I raised.


How have I not? I am convinced of it but you said there was evidence, evidence I want to see.


Sorry. I didn't mean to sound like Carolyn Yeager. ;). I've seen plenty about the hospitals on the Web. I can't give immediate references to it all; this isn't a doctoral thesis and I don't have a card index memory ( :) ) but if you google "auschwitz hospital" the first two hits are exterminationist sites, which confirm there were several hospitals.

Kingfisher wrote: So,again, where is the Holocaust®, which we are assured is qualitatively and quantitatively different, and which we must all bow down and worship? ...

athenarena wrote:I cannot answer that. It is so similar it should be treated like everything else. Another bloody chapter in the world's history. It should definitely [b]not[b] be a religion.

Then I think we are pretty well in agreement. My point was precisely that it is elevated to a different level to anything else. If you don't already know Finkelstein I strongly recommend him precisely because he is not a Revisionist, but exposes the misuse of the Holocaust even though he hasn't publicly questioned the historical accuracy of the account.
athenarena wrote:Then we should use every other tool [than the polygraph]. I was just listing. It is not compulsory we use it. The others are more damning anyway and are the foundations of a strong case.

Again, we are pretty much in agreement. This is precisely what the exterminationsts will not countenance. Which does raise the question of what they are afraid of finding out.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby nathan » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:12 pm)

AWoLsco wrote:

The Red Cross visited Auschwitz frequently,(contrary to popular perception)approximately monthly. Their main concern was that their parcels were arriving and reaching the designated recipients. In fact, they uncovered "irregularities" ie evidence of bullying and criminal activity amongst camp inmates and the SS got a ticking off for failing to maintain camp discipline!


Approximately monthly? Is this the German Red Cross or the International Red Cross? Is there a source for this?

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:53 pm)

Internet is fixed! Thank god *sighs*. I hate eircom, I really do but they are the only ones who will work in an old house.

AWoLsco wrote:for Athenarena



Letter from Auschwitz

How do Holocaust believers explain this? The Auschwitz "death" camp also had a post office. Here is a letter that was sent from the post office.

My Address: Prisoner
Name: Josef Novy
Date of Birth: 27th April 1911
Prisoner Number: 73,034. Block 9a, Concentration Camp Auschwitz, Post Office II

Auschwitz, 14th February 1943

Quote:
My dear ones!

I’m in good health, and I’m alright - I hope the same applies to you. I’ve received 3 letters and 6 parcels from you recently - all in good shape. Letters and parcels may not be sent registered, just send the parcels as per the first ones. The first parcels made me very happy - particularly the chocolate honey and the many sweets - please send more like that. My brother Jarde and aunt Milka could also send me packages - I would be very grateful. Send the money as I previously asked you, i.e., RM 40.- per month.

From now on I shall only be allowed to write once a month. Your lovely letters are a source of great happiness, and I look forward to receiving more. Please don’t forget to send me garlic, onions, and enough sugar. I thank you for everything you have done for me, and I hope that you will not forget about me. I’m always with you in my thoughts, and am looking forward to seeing you again. Please give my regards to all friends and relations, especially the Faila family.

Your thankful son, Josef

PS. You can send parcels frequently.

Of course this could be a fake by the German authorities, but I don't think so. The Red Cross visited Auschwitz frequently,(contrary to popular perception)approximately monthly. Their main concern was that their parcels were arriving and reaching the designated recipients. In fact, they uncovered "irregularities" ie evidence of bullying and criminal activity amongst camp inmates and the SS got a ticking off for failing to maintain camp discipline!


Like nathan said, show me the evidence -and I will not accept wikipedia so don't for a second send me a link to that site. Show me the evidence to your claim about the Red Cross.

As for the other thing, what had the Germans told the Jews? You answer your own question. It was to keep normality, to stop suspicion, to keep the prisoners under control.

Kingfisher wrote:Sorry. I didn't mean to sound like Carolyn Yeager. ;). I've seen plenty about the hospitals on the Web. I can't give immediate references to it all; this isn't a doctoral thesis and I don't have a card index memory ( :) ) but if you google "auschwitz hospital" the first two hits are exterminationist sites, which confirm there were several hospitals.


Who? I have never heard of her. Well glad to hear you do have not such a memory. I will have to look it up. Exterminationist sites? Are they trustworthy?

Kingfisher wrote:Then I think we are pretty well in agreement. My point was precisely that it is elevated to a different level to anything else. If you don't already know Finkelstein I strongly recommend him precisely because he is not a Revisionist, but exposes the misuse of the Holocaust even though he hasn't publicly questioned the historical accuracy of the account.


We are. There is as much to learn especially on the standpoint of the failings of the UN from Rwanda, Srebenica, Darfar, Chad. The further back in history we go the further forward we can see. Well he sounds like my sort of guy. I mean seriously, I just have to mention Irish history and yet that is pushed under the rug while something similar to the Jewish fate (persecution, forced to live in the worst parts of the country, death) is a trait of my own former religion.

Kingfisher wrote:Again, we are pretty much in agreement. This is precisely what the exterminationsts will not countenance. Which does raise the question of what they are afraid of finding out.


We seem to be in agreement a lot. That is an age old question. What are they hiding? I stand by the Holocaust but I believe there are errors throughout that should be fixed but by only the most level-headed, rational of both sides. Independent inquiries and the like. We cannot take this to the UN Security Council, USA will veto it within a second. How do you think they have disobeyed the UN on the Cuban embargo for over 18 years and gotten away with it?

Speaking of news, I will be an advocate for Germany in the Model ICJ in The Hague International Model United Nations this January coming.

NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Hannover » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:01 pm)

athenarena, you said:
I am a believer and believed the Holocaust did happen but have doubts about the gas chambers and believe our forensic standards should be used to clear the air so the Holocaust could be remembered for what it truly was. We should get rid of doubts.

I challenge you to start threads on each of the specifics that you feel support your notion of the so called 'holocaust'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:20 pm)

Hannover wrote:athenarena, you said:
I am a believer and believed the Holocaust did happen but have doubts about the gas chambers and believe our forensic standards should be used to clear the air so the Holocaust could be remembered for what it truly was. We should get rid of doubts.

I challenge you to start threads on each of the specifics that you feel support your notion of the so called 'holocaust'.
- Hannover


Good idea, Hannover.

Do remember though that she's only seventeen. I reckon it's pretty gutsy of her to come into the lion's den like this. I think she's at least a small r revisionist but doesn't yet know it. She'd certainly get called a denier on the Believer sites.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby AWoLsco » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:30 pm)

Replying to nathan and Athenarena.
I did go back and check where I got that from. I have to say that I couldn't locate the scource of the letter and checking on the facts of International Red Cross involvement, it would seem that there was little contact and inspection prior to 1944(certainly not monthly). However, Theresienstadt was praised and considerable quantities of food parcels were sent and many letters of grateful thanks from Jews were received......so at least some of the parcels must have got through.
Whatever, the mere fact that The ICRC(International Red Cross) even knew about Auschwitz, that letters of ANY KIND whatsoever could exit from what I, as a former-believer, thought was a top-security death camp, located at the terminus of a railway line deep in a Polish forest.....comes as a bit of a shock. To put it mildly.
That was what I had been led to believe, as a consequence of post-war propaganda. Now, thanks to the internet, I hear about swimming pools , football games, orchestras, films, houses of ill-repute, even. Getting paid(and laid), getting released, factories, hospitals, heated huts. Visitors, mostly relatives of camp staff coming and going freely...very odd for a "death camp".
One concludes that the German policy must have been."Let's give them a good time while they're alive,so as not to give rise to alarm and panic. Let's not bother with high security and with a bit of luck we can kill and cremate a few thousand a day without anyone (German ,Jew or whatever) noticing. No. Sorry. I am not buying that.
The Germans are without doubt clever and industrious...but not THAT clever.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby The Warden » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:38 pm)

Detailed explanations of why people believe the Holocaust™ are hard to come by. There seems to be a widespread "blind faith' epidemic.
Even more reason to call the Holocaust™ a religion instead of fact.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Cloud » 8 years 7 months ago (Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:25 am)

athenarena wrote:Working people to death in those camps who were anti-Aryan.

If you poll random people, that is not the answer you'll be getting. Almost always it will be, "the Nazis exterminated six million Jews." If there were no homicidal gas chambers nor a state sanctioned, physical extermination program of European Jews, and if the total number of Jewish deaths in the camps was actually several orders of magnitude below what is alleged, is it likely that the "Holocaust" would have achieved the infamous reputation it has today? Would it even be named the "Holocaust?"

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Re: Bad News...

Postby nathan » 8 years 7 months ago (Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:46 pm)

We know from Dr Kremer’s diary that The German Red Cross (Deutsches Rotes Kreuz) inspected Birkenau at least once (September 25 1942). But the DRK was a Nazi organisation, answerable to Pohl. Each national Red Cross association had its own patriotism (DRK officers had ceremonial daggers). That is why technical assistance from the Polish Red Cross was such a propaganda bonus for the Germans at Katyn.

The International Committee of Red Cross in Geneva is the only Red Cross organisation which had to be, and tried to be, neutral. With a few brief and tangental exceptions, the ICRC was refused access to the concentration camps. These rebuffs began long before the Final Solution was devised and they continued until after mass extermination was supposed to be over. The Germans always refused to discuss the fate of deported Jews, and in April 42 they explicitly told the ICRC to stop asking about them.

During 1942 the IC was still able to get material aid to Jews in the dwindling ghettos of the General Gouvernement, but was never allowed access to its camps. The ICRC’s chief delegate in Germany, Roland Marti, did have personal contact with commandants of western camps between November 1943 and Spring 44. These meetings, apparently held at the discretion of the commandants, were about normal Red Cross concerns. It is clear that by 1943 individual parcels were reaching named internees; by at latest Spring 1944 collective shipments were being received by the all major camps, including Auschwitz.
Another official Maurice Rossel did make a full - but heralded - inspection of the showcase Terezin ghetto in June 23 1944. The Nazis presented him with a pretty picture and he reported what he saw. In September 1944 this same Rossel also visited Auschwitz 1 and interviewed Baer in his office. He visited Ravensbruck and Mauthuasen but there too he did not get past the Kommandatur. I have seen no evidence that Rossel was allowed into any Auschwitz camp. Finally Marti and Rossel and others were allowed into certain camps when the Reich was crumbling in April 1945. Terezen then got a second inspection and a second clean bill of health, even though the Nazis, in their pressing need for labour, had recently broken their June promise to make no more deportations. (Eichmann was present, reportedly saying that Himmler’s approach to the Jews had been too humane). A full ICRC report of these visits exists online, but only in French. (extracts re translated another Codoh thread RED CROSS GAS CHAMBERS).


One can safely say that the Red Cross had heard of gas chambers during the war and did not believe in them. Nobody did. But one cannot say they inspected camps and could have noticed them.

Harwood in Did Six Million Die tells us:
“Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol.III, p. 594).”


Harwood, a slovenly researcher, is in fact quoting from page 594 of an earlier volume of the comprehensive 3-volume ICRC report published in 1948. That volume is about interment camps in North Africa. Some neo-Nazi sites (mirror-images of ARC sites) confidently situate this “inspection” as if in Birkenau.

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 7 months ago (Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:56 pm)

AWolsco said
That was what I had been led to believe, as a consequence of post-war propaganda. Now, thanks to the internet, I hear about swimming pools , football games, orchestras, films, houses of ill-repute, even. Getting paid(and laid), getting released, factories, hospitals, heated huts. Visitors, mostly relatives of camp staff coming and going freely...very odd for a "death camp".


yes. that is right. But there were plenty of different camps, nobody said that every prisonner were treated all the same. there prisonners of war which were treated according to their nationalities. The Germans respected the Genava conventions wih the countries who signed it.
Racial considerations and the prisonner's utility had also its importance.
In the case of Belgium, Flemish were better treated than french speaking Walloons, Nobel (with links to german's aristocracy) were more respected than a left winger trade union members, etc.

Life at Auschwitz 1 had nothing to do with Life at Birkenau...Some Jews were very well treated at Belsen because they were important personalities (which could be exchanged)...So tell us who this Josef was...
The question here is What was happening at Birkenau, not how life was at Auscwitz 1 or Monowitz.

But i don't understand the blind acceptance of those kind of testimonies, while other are systematically dismissed.
Why accept this one and reject...the one's like Dr Muench's (just to take this example) ????

Cloud said
If you poll random people, that is not the answer you'll be getting. Almost always it will be, "the Nazis exterminated six million Jews."


But that is if you poll RANDOM people. Most Random people only have a very basic knowledge of History.
As any RANDOM French about their famous Revolution, and he will give you his load of bullshit as well. A nationalist Ukrainian won't have the same view than his Russian counter part concerning the Holodomor, etc.
but IRRC, Hilberg "only" speaks of 5.000.000 Jews killed, insisting on the fact that it's can only be an estimation. While post war communist propaganda was speaking of 12.000.000...So in this perspective, Historians diminished the number of victims quite a lot!
6.000.000 is what remains in the public memory, that does not mean it's historical fact, as defined by REAL and TRAINED Historians.

The Warden said
Detailed explanations of why people believe the Holocaust™ are hard to come by


Not at all, because they have been told so.
Now, those times were genocidal. the Nazis don't have the monopoly of Genocidal acts. Even during the Kaiser, they eradicated a people in their African colonies.
The Muslims were massacred when the Ottoman empire tumbled, the Turks massacred Assyrians and Armenians, Ukrainians were starved to death by the Bolcheviks and Stalin, the Ukrainians massacred jews because of that, Even the British let millions of Indians starve because they needed the ships used for food supply, The Germans were thrown out of their land after the war (proving that you don't need gas chambers to kill millions)
Why should the most hated people on earth (the Jews) miraculously have been spared by their worst ennemies (Nazis)?

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:22 pm)

athenarena:
You have been challenged to support your beliefs*, which were off topic to this thread, but were allowed to remain since you are rather new here and you mixed such beliefs into posts that are relevant to the thread. Rules of this forum indicate you must respond or leave the thread, IOW ... no dodging. However, in your case, we'll let it slide if you start new threads on your beliefs or post to existing threads which deal with your beliefs. You will not be allowed to post to this thread if you do not address the challenges.

*See Hannover's challenge for one.
athenarena, you said:

I am a believer and believed the Holocaust did happen but have doubts about the gas chambers and believe our forensic standards should be used to clear the air so the Holocaust could be remembered for what it truly was. We should get rid of doubts.

I challenge you to start threads on each of the specifics that you feel support your notion of the so called 'holocaust'.

- Hannover


others:
This thread is going way off topic. We have removed some of the off topic posts, future off topic posts will also be deleted. Get with the stated guidelines.
Mod3

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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:19 pm)

Moderator3 wrote:athenarena:
You have been challenged to support your beliefs*, which were off topic to this thread, but were allowed to remain since you are rather new here and you mixed such beliefs into posts that are relevant to the thread. Rules of this forum indicate you must respond or leave the thread, IOW ... no dodging. However, in your case, we'll let it slide if you start new threads on your beliefs or post to existing threads which deal with your beliefs. You will not be allowed to post to this thread if you do not address the challenges.

*See Hannover's challenge for one.
athenarena, you said:

I am a believer and believed the Holocaust did happen but have doubts about the gas chambers and believe our forensic standards should be used to clear the air so the Holocaust could be remembered for what it truly was. We should get rid of doubts.

I challenge you to start threads on each of the specifics that you feel support your notion of the so called 'holocaust'.

- Hannover


Mod3, I apologise for going off-course and will not do it again. I have answered Hannover's challenge by stating in a post shortly after that challenge why I have believed in the Holocaust and as such my ideals are such that it would be too short for a thread, each and every one. Also, one is extremely personal which I do not wish to share until I trust you all more. I also said that I am willing to copy what I have stated for Hannover if that is what he wants. I did not dodge but I did not do what he asked but responded in kind to what he said. I see that as an answer to his challenge. Apologies if that is not seen as one but I see it as one.

NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: Bad News...

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:11 pm)

athenarena:
You're missing, or avoiding the point. If you claim a 'holocaust' belief at this forum you must respond to direct challenges on it. Your position lacks credibility without a direct response. IOW, don't claim it if you cannot/will not support it. It is indeed a dodge to claim that it is all too 'personal'. If it's so 'personal' then why introduce it into a debate forum?
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Re: Bad News...

Postby athenarena » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:19 pm)

Moderator3 wrote:athenarena:
You're missing, or avoiding the point. If you claim a 'holocaust' belief at this forum you must respond to direct challenges on it. Your position lacks credibility without a direct response. IOW, don't claim it if you cannot/will not support it. It is indeed a dodge to claim that it is all too 'personal'. If it's so 'personal' then why introduce it into a debate forum?
M3


Apologies. I will say it. I watched my father die in a similar way to how those who died of hunger starvation and overwork in those concentration camps for ten months at the age of 14. The skin pallor changing, the dramatic weight loss, the quenching of the spark of the soul, the fighting to survive even though death is inevitable, knowing you cannot do anything and still watch it, the slow death from the inside out.

Because of that, I cannot believe that someone would make up a story with that in it and not feel emotional guilt and pain of inflicting that on other people. So that is the personal reason why I believe the stories of the Holocaust survivors. Because of that, I believe in the fundamental belief that the Holocaust happened. I have doubts about certain things, yes but I do not doubt it happened.

You watch a parent being led out from your house on death's doorstep to go to the hospital and know you will never see them again or know that nobody will ever find a cure for what killed him because not enough suffer from that disease and tell me if you can listen to those stories and not believe them? So there, that is my personal reason. Does that give me credibility?


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