joachim neander has names of 2 'gassed'

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StuDewan
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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby StuDewan » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:56 pm)

joachim neander wrote:I've read Mattogno's book, of course. He does not address the sources I mention, so he does not refute my argument. Nor does Mr. Berg with his name-calling.


Mr. Neander, Mattogno cites the same source as you, page 32, footnote 84:

"The story of the first homicidal gassing at Auschwitz was originally not
placed into a plan for the mass extermination of Jews or Soviet POWs, but
into a project involving the testing of combat gases on human beings within
the framework of toxic chemicals used during WWI, already mentioned. It
was, in a way, the virtual continuation of such activities. This is mentioned in
a number of reports from the Auschwitz camp resistance movement, the first
one dating from October 24, 1941:84"

84 “Obóz koncentracyjny O wi cim w wietle akt Delegatury Rz du R.P. na Kraj” (The
Auschwitz concentration camp in the light of the documents of the Polish government in
exile), Zeszyty O wi cimskie, special edition no. I, O wi cim 1968, p. 11.




he doesn't mention Alfred Rögner but that's no surprise since a Google search on "alfred rögner auschwitz" and "alfred rögner gassings" return 0 pages...

Stu

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Greg Gerdes » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:56 pm)

JN

This "action" was observed by dozens of prisoners



What EXACTLY did they "observe?

Direct quotes and sources please.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:13 pm)

Let me see if I got this right. Aside from the mention of three people in the "Bunkerbuch," everything else Neander has presented as evidence of mass murder is pure "eyewitness" testimony.

Am I missing something, Joachim Neander?

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Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:21 am)

@ Greg Gerdes:
Scholarly work is not inventing the wheel for a second time. I'll give you a reference (btw, also quoted, though not used by C. Mattogno, because contrary to his underlying assumptions): Stanislaw Klodzinski, "Pierwsze zagazowanie wiezniow i jencow w obozie oswiecimskim," Przeglad Lekarski 1/1972, pp. 80-94, where you find numerous direct quotations from prisoners involved in the "action." (I apologize for omitting the diacritical signs in the Polish words - my computer "speaks English" and hasn't them.)

@ Friedrich Paul Berg: Am I correct in assuming that, for you, the testimony of a person who actively participated in an event is worthless? Or what does the scare quotes around "eyewitness" in your statement mean?
Apart from that, I've asked you several times what YOU would accept as a proof that the two mentioned German prisoners were gassed? You always ask for "a proof," you reject proofs that would be accepted in court, please say what is YOUR standard?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Kiwichap » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:47 am)

Why would anybody go to the trouble of gassing Jews/Poles/whoever, in the basement of block 11? - When just around the corner was the wall of death. For the cost of two bullets... ya just gotta laugh.
There was no holocaust.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby grenadier » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:34 am)

JN
Scholarly work is not inventing the wheel for a second time. I'll give you a reference (btw, also quoted, though not used by C. Mattogno, because contrary to his underlying assumptions): Stanislaw Klodzinski, "Pierwsze zagazowanie wiezniow i jencow w obozie oswiecimskim," Przeglad Lekarski 1/1972, pp. 80-94, where you find numerous direct quotations from prisoners involved in the "action."
[...]Am I correct in assuming that, for you(FPB), the testimony of a person who actively participated in an event is worthless? Or what does the scare quotes around "eyewitness" in your statement mean?[...]


Holocaust studies are NOT scholarly by any objective standarts, it is pure hoaxterism at best dressed up as serious historical work. Holocaust historians are cowardly system stooges who in fact completely pervert history as a science, giving it a bad name.( Admittedly there are many historians on other subjects who are just as much fairy tale tellers as are holo hoaxers. The field is full of quacks and incompetents )
Anyone who has taken the trouble to read some reference Holohoax studies can see that you people always put the wagon in front of the horses. It works like this: It was "proven" that the industrialized mass murder of Jews took place in the Allied show trials and the system stooges, the Holocaust "historians", are the guardians of this holy grail, tasked with keeping this monstrous lie alive, enhance it and perpetuate it. The evidence does not exist, as Van Pelt(no proof for 99% of the holo) and many others have had to admit one way or another. And there you have these holo hoaxters dancing around the main issue, which is, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THIS CRIME EVEN HAPPENED, while forcing whatever they see as 'evidence' fit their pathetic story. Such behavior is a complete breach of basic logic. That is what you JN, have just done in this thread.
So don't you come here lecturing people about scholarly work. Try to learn to walk before learning to run.
As for witnesses JN, you are bringing NOTHING NEW to the plate. If so, there would not be a holocaust controversy because the Allied inquisitors and their stooges were always capable of producing such "witnesses". Since however the holo witnesses oftentimes contradict themselves, contradic each other, defy the laws of nature, tell bizarro and ridiculous stories, contradict the authentic documentary record and since no material evidence to support their crazy stories exist, on the contrary, the material evidence contradicts them, therefore you JN, and others of your ilk, will indeed have to do much better than to invoke such testimony. Btw, the few times such witnesses were really cross-examined they were shown to be lying. You holo "historians" have had plenty of time but have utterly failed and that is because the "extermination" phase of the so called holocaust NEVER HAPPENED.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Inquisitive » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:51 am)

Joachim neander wrote:
You always ask for "a proof," you reject proofs that would be accepted in court, please say what is YOUR standard?


How about a body? Rarely does a court accept a murder has been committed without a corpse. I have never seen forensic evidence of a gassed body, not even one, nor has anyone else from the holocaust. With a crime of this magnitude surely there would be monumental residue. Don't you think it's time to let the world see the other side of this unique, evil, horrible crime? Representatives of the holocaust against revisionists. National tv, level playing field? Fair?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby grenadier » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:29 am)

I paste below Mr.Mattogno's rebuttal to Joachim Neander's nonsense about his supposed proof for 2 gassed persons. Overkill I know, but nice nevertheless! :mrgreen:

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/02/re ... m-neander/

Rebuttal to Joachim Neander
By Carlo Mattogno (February 2010)

Joachim Neander claims that he is able to give the name of two prisoners who were gassed at Auschwitz. He notes that the “Bunkerbuch” on 5 September 1941 has recorded the death of three deatinees, Fritz Renner, Bruno Grosman and Roman Drost, of which the first two are Germans. Since «they all died the same day when the first mass gassing was carried out in the basement of Block 11 (date Sep 5, 1941, according to reports that, shortly after the event, reached the Polish Government-in-Exile in London)» this shows that they were gassed. He adds that «Carlo Mattogno does neither take into consideration the “Bunker” ledger nor the Rögner report nor the accounts of the Polish prisoners who were involved in the September 5, 1941, “action”».[1]

The French historian Jacques Baynac has written:

«For the scientific historian, the testimony is not really history, but an object of history. A testimony does not have much weight, and weighs still less if not confirmed by a genuine document. The postulate of historical science thus is, to put it bluntly: no document(s), no verified fact.»[2]

A testimony, if not supported by a document, is worthless from the historical point of view, regardless of the notion of “converging testimonies”, as is shown by the example of the “converging” testimonal evidence for the Auschwitz 4 million victim figure.

However, in this case, as I have demonstrated in my study Auschwitz: The First Gassing. Rumor and Reality (Theses & Dissertations Press, available online:http://vho.org/dl/ENG/atfg.pdf) the testimonies are not only not supported by any documents, but all are moreover contradictory on all essential points, namely:

* on the location of the first gassing,
* on the duration of the first gassing,
* on the date of the first gassing,
* on the hour of the first gassing,
* on the preparations for the first gassing,
* on the physician present at the first gassing,
* on the perpetrator of the first gassing,
* on the nature of the victims of the first gassing,
* on the number of the victims of the first gassing,
* on the persons who removed the corpses,
* on the beginning of the removal of the corpses,
* on the duration of the removal of the corpses,
* on the fate of the corpses removed,
* on the technique of the gassing,
* on the duration of the agony of the victims,
* on the number of Zyklon B cans used for the gassing.[3]

The interpretation made by Joachim Neander is completely unfounded for two reasons:

1) He arbitrarily chooses the date September 5, 1941 among the various contradictory dates given by the self-styled “eyewitnesses”:

* Michał Kula: 14-15 August 1941
* Zbigniew Baranowski: 15 August 1941
* Walter Petzold: 9 October 1941;

Others – Henry Storch: spring of 1941; Maximilian Grabner: beginning of 1941; Hans Aumeier: November or December 1942.

Among these datings he chooses the one mentioned in «reports that, shortly after the event, reached the Polish Government-in-Exile in London» and which were published in the Polish Forthnightly Review on 1 July 1942. But why should this date be more reliable than the others? Danuta Czech, in her Kalendarium, has explicitly stated 3 September 1941 as the starting date of the alleged gassings. Why is this date unreliable according to Joachim Neander? The answer to this is simply and brings us to the second reason.

2) It is true that these three prisoners were listed as dead in the “Bunkerbuch” on 5 September 1941, but it is also true that they were locked up there the same day. Now, according to Danuta Czech, the “first gassing” began on 3 September and ended the day after that with the death of all the victims; on 5 September there was thus no “gassing” but only an evacuation of the bodies. Neander knows the Kalendarium, since he drew from it (the entry for 6 September 1941) the information regarding the three prisoners confined in the Bunker.[4] In addition, his statement that «Carlo Mattogno does neither take into consideration the “Bunker” ledger» is false, since I have written on the matter:

«The “Bunkerbuch” does not provide us with any information regarding the alleged homicidal gassing of September 3-5, 1941. On September 5, three detainees are registered as having entered: Fritz Renner (ID 11179), Bruno Grosmann (ID 15083), and Roman Drost (ID 10992). They die on the same day (in the register of the Bunker, next to their names, there is the note “ver.”[storben] = deceased). On September 5, the civilian Ladisław Maślak, who had entered the Bunker on August 10, is also entered as having died. The cause of death is not indicated for these four detainees».[5]

In this context Adolf Rögner’s statement that

«in the prison, there were still 2 Germans, they were not released … The 1st Camp Physician had told them they would be released early if they agreed to participate in a short treatment».

has no value. It can not refer to the two German prisoners mentioned above, because they entered the Bunker of Block 11 on 5 September 1941 and died there the same day! Moreover, in the brief quote made by Neander, Rögner does not indicate the names of the detainees nor the date. He therefore does not have any indication that it refers to Fritz Renner and Bruno Grosman in relation to 5 September 1941.

Equally untrue is the statement that I did not mention «the accounts of the Polish prisoners who were involved in the September 5, 1941, “action”». In this regard I have gathered, from all available sources, over forty such accounts, a number vastly superior to that given by Danuta Czech.[6]

In conclusion:

* there is no evidence that the Bunker of Block 11 in Auschwitz was ever used for a homicidal gassing;
* the dating 5 September 1941 for the alleged event is merely one of the conflicting dates provided by the witness accounts;

therefore the deaths of Fritz Renner and Bruno Grosman in the Bunker on September 5, 1941 does not prove anything and the two can not be considered as “gassed”.

Carlo Mattogno

[1] http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5909

[2] J. Baynac, «Faute de documents probants sur les chambres à gaz, les historiens ésquivent le débat», in: Le Nouveau Quotidien, 3 September 1996, p. 14.

[3] Auschwitz: The First Gassing. Rumor and Reality, pp. 69-90.

[4] D. Czech, D. Czech, Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager Auschwitz-Birkenau 1939-1945. Rowohlt Verlag, Reinbek bei Hamburg, 1989, p. 120.

[5] Idem, p. 106.

[6] Idem, pp. 31-68.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:13 pm)

We can all thank Carlo Mattogno for his superb rebuttal to Neander's arguments about the alleged gassings in September 1941. Unfortunately, no amount of "overkill" with evidence and rational arguments is ever likely to divert people like Neander from their self-appointed mission. There is something much deeper at stake for them.

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:08 pm)

Wow, Carlo Mattogno has responded to something on this forum! It will be interesting to see what Joachim Neander says.

In Carlo's post I didn't understand what the following symbol meant: », which I now see is quotes.

Two small things:
1) three deatinees =three detainees

2) The answer to this is simply and brings= the answer to this is simple and brings.

In #2 does anyone know what Mattogno means by "but it is also true that they were locked up there the same day." ?

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Laurentz Dahl » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:20 am)

My suggestion to Joachim Neander is that he posts any reply to Mattogno to a blog of his choice, since this would make it easier to hold a scholarly debate.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Thesaint » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:34 pm)

Come on Joachim,it`s been eleven days since your last post in this thread.

Or do you admit defeat in your latest hoax-peddling effort?
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
- Jerusalem Post 6/16/00

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:37 pm)

@ The Saint:
You will soon hear more.
But please imagine that there are people who have a lot of other interests than trying to debate with Revisionists, and who have many other things to do.
What is more, I do not answer to ad hominem attacks.
Call this "admitting defeat" if you want.
It's just a field on which I do not play.

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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:30 pm)


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Re: joachim neander has names of 2 gassed

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:14 pm)

You begin your rebuttal with the usual ad hom/strawman rubbish, which makes the rest of it pointless.

Ironic you said this too.

neander wrote:What is more, I do not answer to ad hominem attacks.


I guess you only initiate them? :lol:


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