Irving is not denying the Holocaust.

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bernad_law
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Irving is not denying the Holocaust.

Postby bernad_law » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:33 am)

Read his book "Hitler's war", published in London 1977, and see for yourself. In this masterpiece of historical research he is merely denying the fact that HITLER knew of it...

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:45 am)

"According to the evidence that I have seen, there were no gas chambers anywhere. The evidence that we have been shown, the aerial photographs, the eyewitnesses, it's all very spurious indeed."

- David Irving


"We were talking yesterday about this bus in Serbia with 90,000 people or 70,000 people being gassed in the space of 35 days. That would have meant 38 people being gassed every hour in each bus. That kind of figure is completely impractical."

- David Irving


"more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz"

- David Irving


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Right.

Postby bernad_law » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:59 am)

So, you are denying my accusation? I challange you to tell me that what I said was a lie. According to the ruels you must answer me..

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Postby bernad_law » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:01 am)

Both you and I know that Irving has written that book. You do not like it, I do.........

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:17 am)

Challenge? To answer what? Irving has never said he believed in the so called 'holocaust' as alleged.

I have presented quotes, and now links from Irving and his site which shred the 'holocaust' as alleged.

Here are some interesting links from Irving's site, all of which demolish huge elements of the 'holocaust' story:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/document ... 71200.html

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/con ... hoto2.html

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/trial/Marques101200.html

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:29 am)

When discussing the so called 'holocaust' in a 1998 speech at Washington State University:

"Eyewitness testimony is really a matter for psychiatric evaluation."

- David Irving


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby bernad_law » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:31 am)

This book was published, as I said, 1977. After extensive research, Irving came to the conclusion that Hitler knew nothing about the extermination. The whole project was planned by Heinrich Himmler, according to Irving. But he never denies the extermination in this book.

"As alleged"? What is that? There are just as many views of the holocaust as there are human beengs. But the fact is that Irving did not extensely deny or alter the accepted pivture of the holocaust in "Hitler's War".

But the book did not convince the historical community. So after some time Irving rejected all of his inital reseach and took position among those who are denying the Holocaust. Hey, they did get almost an historian!

Gives him great credability, does it not?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:48 am)

'Extermination'? There was no 'extermination', there was no plan by Himmler, Hitler, or anyone else and you have no proof there was...but that is a separate thread. Post to an existing thread or start one of your own, I look forward to it.

I'm glad you now realize that Irving's book was written in 1977 and subject to new information. Hence the term 'revisionism', all intellectual pursuits are subject to revision.....that is why such endeavors exist. Knowledge is not set in stone.

Irving has not written any books on the so called 'holocaust'. In fact, many people at this Forum know much more about it than him.

I repeat:

Irving has never said he believed in the so called 'holocaust' as alleged.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby montague » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:17 am)

I really can't agree - what of the extracts from his Goebbels biography which claim that 'gassings' in 'gas chamber vans' occurred in Chelmno? And, of course, that the SS - and vengeful Balts - exterminated tens of thousands of Jews in the Baltic states after the retreat of the Red Army in 1941? (The method was to line up the Jews in tank ditches (what the hell's a tank ditch?) and rake them over with a machine-gun, NKVD style...). Also, Irving claims that thousands of Western European Jews were sent by Nazis to the occupied East in trains, knowing that the locals would be waiting to kill them at the other end.

The evidence for all this is slim to non-existent. For instance, Irving, as we know, based his accounts on the Baltic killings on the 'overheard' conversations of Nazis in Allied captivity.

For these reasons, I've come to reject whatever Irving says on the Holocaust: he's too Exterminationist for me. He writes superb military history, but as a writer on the Holocaust, he doesn't make the grade.

Besides which, I just don't understand his position. Some days at his sites, he says things which are Revisionist and pro-Hitler, and then he praises the Nuremberg trial and calls Hitler a bigot and a bully.

Anyway, Irving gives credence to the Korherr reports, which he believes prove that an extermination of sorts took place:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Auschwitz/ ... 10903.html

Rupert.

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Postby bernad_law » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:56 am)

The only true revisionism Irving has done is that in the famous trial. Look at the verdict and see how he changed his story.........
......and why did he start to deny the extermination in -88, when he got his so called proof about the gas chambairs in -98?

What did he base these alligations on erlier?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:28 am)

montague wrote: Anyway, Irving gives credence to the Korherr reports, which he believes prove that an extermination of sorts took place:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Auschwitz/ ... 10903.html



Irving plays here with the word “Sonderbehandlung”, which exterminationists interprete as being a codeword meaning “killing”.

Mattogno discusses this in an article about erroneous interpretations by the Jewish historian Georges Wellers in

Sonderbehandlung, Georges Wellers und der Korherr-Bericht (in German)
http://vho.org/VffG/1997/2/Mattogno2.html .

It is his opinion that the correct meaning of “Sonderbehandlung” in the context of that report should be:

"Transportierung von Juden aus Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen Osten" (transportation of Jews from the Eastern Provinces to the Russian East).

Irving is rather vague about the Korherr Report, as he is so often in matters Holocaust:

By Faurisson in A Challenge to David Irving
http://www.abbc.com/aaargh/engl/FaurisA ... 412xx.html

“[…]On several occasions David Irving, instead of talking with the degree of certainty that one can obtain from an investigation, prefers to talk about a "feeling" or about "feelings" that one can simply have in "mind":

(p. 42): I would say I am satisfied in my own mind... I am quite plain about that in my own mind... I've got the kind of gut feeling which suggests to me that that is probably accurate.

(p. 49): And there's no question in my mind that... in my view...

(p. 50): Now, this fits in with the image that I have built in my own mind that...[…]”

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:02 am)

And ofcourse, the entire body of judeo-supremacist bullies have labelled Irving a 'holocaust denier'. So Bernad_Law should tell them his story.

Irving has been all over the place with the so called 'holocaust' and is not very knowledgable about the specifics. But one thing is clear, he rejects the heart of the phoney 'gas chambers' claim.

Irving is a bit of a strawman in the the 'holocaust' Industry tries to use him as the foremost Revisionist, which is certainly not the case. Now Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, & Juergen Graf, they are the real deal. The 'holocau$t' Industry doesn't dare tangle with them in court where they would utterly demolish the likes of True Believer High Priest, Van Pelt.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:35 pm)

Read his book "Hitler's war", published in London 1977


Read the revised 'millenium edition' and spot the differences.

No-where does Irving mention a word about mass deaths at Auschwitz, or any of the other nonsense.

The only thing he talks of, is a few small scale shootings. (The origins of his sources, are very dubious to say the least. The very appropriate document's and recordings, that the British just happened to have...Hmmm ! The forerunner to Iraq's document's? I wonder.

Hannover's right, Irving is no expert on the industry and has no wish to be either. Nevertheless, even though he admits freely that he is no expert on the Industry, he is no fool, and has enough intelligence, as to see through all the crap that has been belched about this dirty swindle .


(what the hell's a tank ditch?)


A deep ditch to stop/disrupt the advance of Armoured columns. Never work ! The French had them at the Maginot line, so Hitler ordered the Panzer Divisions to just drive around them. So simple.

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Re: Irving is not denying the Holocaust.

Postby Dan Cullum » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:16 pm)

bernad_law wrote:Read his book "Hitler's war", published in London 1977, and see for yourself. In this masterpiece of historical research he is merely denying the fact that HITLER knew of it...


I did, and found one passage that I interpreted as his denying the Holocaust in a general way:

In most circumstances Hitler was a pragmatist. It would have been unlike him to sanction the use of scarce transport space to move millions of Jews east for no other purpose than liquidating them there; nor would he willingly destroy manpower, for which his industry was crying out. Heinrich Heim recalls one exasperated comment by Hitler, told that Allied radio had broadcast an announcement that the Jews were being exterminated: ‘Really, the Jews should be grateful to me for wanting nothing more than a bit of hard work from them.’


However, he does claim that Hitler may not have known about the mass killings in the east:

No documentary evidence exists that Hitler was aware of what was befalling the deported Jews. His remarks, noted by Bormann’s adjutant Heinrich Heim late on October 25, 1941, indicate that he did not: ‘From the rostrum of the Reichstag I prophesied to Jewry that if war could not be avoided, the Jews would disappear from Europe. That race of criminals already had on its conscience the two million dead of the Great War, and now it has hundreds of thousands more. Let nobody tell me that despite that we cannot park them in the marshy parts of Russia! Our troops are there as well, and who worries about them! By the way – it’s not a bad thing that the panic precedes us that we’re planning to exterminate Jews.’ Hitler added however that, just as he was postponing the final reckoning with the turbulent Bishop von Galen until later, ‘with the Jews too I have found myself remaining inactive. There’s no point adding to one’s difficulties at a time like this.’ Hans Lammers testified later that this was undoubtedly Hitler’s policy; Hitler had confirmed this to him, saying: ‘I don’t want to be bothered with the Jewish problem again until the war is over.’


In all fairness, however, he does seem to take an Exterminationist side at times:

This initially ad hoc operation gathered momentum. Soon the Jews from the Lodz ghetto and Greiser’s territories were being deported farther east – to the camp at Chelmno. There were 152,000 Jews involved in all, and Chelmno began liquidating them on December 8. It is possible to be specific about the instigators, because on May 1, 1942 Greiser himself would mention in a letter to Himmler that the current ‘special treatment’ programme of the hundred thousand Jews in his own gau had been authorised by Himmler ‘with the agreement of’ Heydrich. Hitler was not mentioned.


and (note the interpretation of "Resettlement"):

The first big SS action against the Jews at Kiev had occurred at the end of September. The report to Canaris by the previously mentioned aide noted: Orders are that the Jews are to be “resettled.” This takes place as follows: the Jews are ordered at short notice to report to specific collecting points with their best clothes and their jewellery on the following night. No distinctions are made as to class, sex, or age. They are then taken to a preselected and prepared site outside the town concerned, where they have to deposit their jewellery and clothes under the pretext of having to complete certain formalities. They are led away from the road and liquidated.


I don't honestly know whether or not David Irving is Revisionist or between Neo-Revisionist and Exterminationist.

Concerning the mass killings in the east:

The killings on this scale had simply begun, without orders from the highest level. There were never any such orders.


Expressing a high opinion of this book, do you believe this?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:06 pm)

The killings on this scale had simply begun, without orders from the highest level. There were never any such orders.


Peter Longerich and Raul Hilberg came up with this explanation:

That the orders from higher up were transmitted through some mystical telepathy.

What the heck, and why not?

In areas outside the “Holocaust” historians are usually mor realistic, down to earth, though.

fge


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