Question about the ICRC report

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ArmChairIntellectual
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Question about the ICRC report

Postby ArmChairIntellectual » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:51 am)

Hello all. I have long been skeptical of the holocaust but it is very difficult to argue all the minor details without knowing every single tiny thing that happened in WWII ever. There has been a claim circulating for a while by the IHR (I hear they are untrustworthy...) that an International Commission of the Red Cross report from 1948 estimated the number of concentration camp deaths at no more than 300 000. I can't find any evidence of this on the internet outside holocaust denier websites. Although the report certainly exists it appears impossible to obtain to verify the claims made by IHR and others. Since this forum is dedicated entirely to the issue of holocaust denial and you appear to reject flimsy evidence, would any of you happen to know if the 300 000 claim actually appears in the report and if so how can I verify this?

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Mojo » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:35 pm)

ACI wrote:Although the report certainly exists it appears impossible to obtain to verify the claims made by IHR and others.


I'd like to know if anyone knows where an online copy is too. There doesn't seem to be one on the ICRC web site.

I also find it fishy that the ICRC said this in 1975, just one year after DSMRD was published.

The deniers often make the preposterous claim that the ICRC estimated
the number of Jewish losses during WW2 as far less than 6 million. This
claim has no foundation in reality. In 22 August 1975, the central
office of the ICRC announced, regarding such assertions, that -

"The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon
statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of
giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish
information of this kind".

(The booklet in question was published in 1974 by Richard Verrall,
the editor of the publication of the neofascist "National Front".
Verrall used the name "Richard Harwood". It contains the same lies
about the ICRC report which are currently repeated by Holocaust
deniers).

http://www.n izkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/lipstadt.deborah/ftp.py?people/l/lipstadt.deborah//citations/red-cross.report


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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Moderator3 » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:20 pm)

ArmChairIntellectual,
The use of the phrase 'holocaust deniers' is bogus, it's a false argument (strawman) and an inflammatory description of those who question specifics of the so called 'holocaust', such as the alleged 'gas chambers', 'six million', enmasse shooting of Jews into pits, etc. There are no Revisionist claims that Jews were never put into labor camps, were not discriminated against by the National Socialists who wanted them out of Europe. Please refrain from such canards.

Thanks & welcome to the CODOH Revisionist Forum.

- Moderator 3

ArmChairIntellectual
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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby ArmChairIntellectual » 9 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:19 am)

I am sorry I used the term 'denier', I didn't mean it to offend anybody as I respect anyone in search for the truth. In any case I don't attach the ignorant conotations to the term, implying the belief that National Socialist Germany didn't persecute the jews, that none of them were executed or that World War II didn't happen or any of the other BS people think you believe, it was just my understanding that most revisionists believe there was no wholesale extermination program.

Anyway, the kind people over at Stormfront provided two pages of statistics allegedly from the report, which is a whole lot better than nothing. However the fact that these claims are made be websites who don't even provide the (possibly fake) documents is disturbing, not that I haven't witnessed outright lies from 'exterminationists', just... who can you trust?

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby nathan » 9 years 8 months ago (Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:38 am)

The claim seems to have originated with “The Myth of the Six Million”.

The ablest revisonist by a mile is Arthur Butz, whom nobody reads. Butz expressed a low opinion of the Hoggan's “terrible” book, and in letter to Lewis Brandon of the Noontide press he wrote, 28 November 1976

.......“I thought that the book's strongest point was the claimed
International Red Cross estimate (p. 102) of a 300.000 figure for "loss of victims of
persecution because of politics, race or religion who died in prisons and
concentration camps between 1939 and 1945 (not incl. USSR)". By implication, that
figure supposedly appeared in the Red Cross publications mentioned on p. 99. I
assumed that nobody would be so brazen as to invent such a thing, so shortly
thereafter I happened to mention the point to a casual acquaintance. However, I also
took the steps to confirm this point, which took a little while because not all of the
publications cited were in Northwestern's library. To my dismay and genuine
surprise, I could find neither the 300.000 or any other figure for the category of
people in question. And in the six years that have since elapsed, I have heard of no
confirmation of this "Red Cross" figure from any source.

"Myth" had the effect of driving me in the direction opposite to that intended. and
it was specifically Myth that I had in mind in my remark in my Foreword near the top
of p. 7 of Hoax. What got me going in the right direction was the literature on the other side, especially Hilberg”


Hoggan was a PhD history student from Harvard. It is hard to believe he would be fool enough to make up so detectable a falsehood. It remains a puzzle how he found or imagined the following figures, which should be discussed but never quoted.

Loss of German civil population as a result of air raids and forced repatriation
2,050,000
Loss of German nationals of other countries during the time of their eviction
1,000,000
Loss of victims of persecution because of politics, race or religion who died in prisons and concentration camps between 1939 and 1945 (not incl. USSR)
300,000
Loss of civil population of the countries of Eastern Europe, without the Soviet Union
8,100,000
Loss of civil population of the Soviet Union
6,700,000

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby ArmChairIntellectual » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:42 am)

Thank you Nathan. What better way to sabotage a movement than to get them using false arguments? The Red Cross argument is appealing because you don't have to waste your time talking about floor plans and zyklon b chemistry, so people who were already convinced by other sources are going to be drawn to it and likely to use it as their central argument, thereby discreditting themselves.

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Diogenes1 » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:50 am)

here is the red cross report that I have, what do you think?
Attachments
redcross_total.jpg

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby SevenUp » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:32 pm)

Diogenes1 wrote:here is the red cross report that I have, what do you think?


What is the provenance* of this document?

*Provenance, from the French provenir, "to come from", means the origin, or the source of something, or the history of the ownership or location of an object.

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Lohengrin » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:05 pm)

There is also another official Red Cross document about the number of victims in German concentration camps, this one from 31-12-1983.

Image

The "provenance" of this document is beyond any doubt, because it was cited under oath by Charles Biedermann, Delegate of the International Red Cross and Director of the ITS, at the Zundel Trial in 1988.

The number of all officially registrated deaths from all causes in five years in the German camps mentioned was 282,077 at the end of 1983.

Including deaths not objectively established, the maximum number of all deaths on all causes was 373,468.

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 5 months ago (Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:15 am)

Lohengrin wrote
The "provenance" of this document is beyond any doubt, because it was cited under oath by Charles Biedermann, Delegate of the International Red Cross and Director of the ITS, at the Zundel Trial in 1988.


But you can't say the provenance is beyond all doubt and then not give a source. Provenance is source. What is the source? Where did Biederman say the document came from?

Diogenes1 wrote
here is the red cross report that I have, what do you think?

That's great you have it, but what is the source? Title of Report? page number? date?

Nathan wrote
The ablest revisonist by a mile is Arthur Butz, whom nobody reads. Butz expressed a low opinion of the Hoggan's “terrible” book, and in letter to Lewis Brandon of the Noontide press he wrote, 28 November 1976

Where did Butz write this? Where was this letter published? Because the Journal of Historical Review didn't start till 1979. American Mercury?

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Diogenes1 » 9 years 5 months ago (Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:38 pm)

I submitted a post here it didn't show up what happened hm?

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby nathan » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:45 am)

In answer to Cutlass:

I don’t know where Butz’s personal letter to Brandon was first published. Does it matter? It might matter, perhaps, if IHR has published Hoggan without the antidote. Aaargh appended it to their online addition of the "Myth". To see the full letter scroll to the end of:

http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/hoggan2.pdf

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:41 pm)

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the info. Interesting critique. I like how Butz wrote "If
there is anything more pernicious than a lie, it must be the unsound argument in
favor of a thesis which is nevertheless true."

It all makes the graphics posted here of Red Cross documents showing the 300,000 number all the more confusing.

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Moderator3 » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:45 pm)

Diogenes1 wrote:I submitted a post here it didn't show up what happened hm?

You changed the subject away from the ICRC report, the subject of this thread, that's what happened. You really should read our stated guidelines.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358

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Re: Question about the ICRC report

Postby Diogenes1 » 9 years 5 months ago (Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:02 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:It all makes the graphics posted here of Red Cross documents showing the 300,000 number all the more confusing.

what's so confusing about it? The document is genuine, as Lohengrin stated,

cited under oath by Charles Biedermann, Delegate of the International Red Cross and Director of the ITS, at the Zundel Trial in 1988


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