Can someone answer this question please?

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Jazz
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Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:37 am)

Hello :)

I'm new to Holocaust revisionism and I was wondering what revisionists think about confessions made by camp guards other than Rudolph Höss? I found an interview on Youtube with an SS officer who worked in Treblinka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukniLFVfaQ

When I watched "David Cole in Auschwitz" it made me think differently but now since I've watched this I don't know anymore. Is he telling the truth or is he lying? Why doesn't a revisionist interview someone who worked in a concentration camp?

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Mojo » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:43 am)

Hi Jazz,

If you were the accused surrounded by a lynch mob, what would you say?

He mentions the foul odor that could be smelled for miles around the camp. Why is it that no locals ever testified to the stench of rotting corpses?

He mentions flesh peeling off in the hands of jews expediting the dead ones, yet they were only 2-3 days old? If you watch the Belsen films, you can see days old bodies being tossed into pits and there doesn't seem to be any flesh peeling off.

He mentions a tank engine as means for gassing. When the revisionsts punched a gaping hole in the diesel exhaust theory, all of a sudden the believers want to cloud the issue by saying it was a gasoline engine. Both the German and Soviet tanks used diesel fuel during that time, so if we are to believe his story we have to revisit the death by diesel exhaust theory. Mr. Berg has volumes of information on death by diesel at www.nazigassings.com

You are aware Suchomel was paid for this interview?

The trouble with the eyewitnesses, is that there's nothing physical to back up their stories. Mr. Gerdes has been offering a hefty sum of money to anyone that can produce evidence of a single mass grave that contains 1/10th of 1% of evidence that supports mass murder. http://www.nafcash.com/ If the story's true, there's millions of pounds of ash and millions upon millions of teeth buried at Treblinka. To date, not a pound of ash/bone or a single tooth has ever been produced. If you haven't watched 1/3rd of the holocaust yet, I recommend watching it. www.holocaustdenialvideos.com It shouldn't take anyone with marginal intelligence to realize that what's been claimed about Treblinka is a physical impossibility. They would have had to process (gas & burn) just over 2,000 bodies a day, every day, rain or shine to produce the claimed number of dead. Then throw in the part where they only gassed and buried the first 600,000 and later dug them up to burn alongside the remaining 270,000 on an outdoor grill.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:47 pm)

I watched the first part of "1/3rd of the holocaust" (I'll watch the rest soon). It's really annoying how the man interviewing Bradley and David keeps going off topic. I didn't know Bradley was on TV and stuff, I've only seen his blogs on Youtube and books on Amazon. But his books got a lot of bad reviews why is that? He has a lot of evidence and research behind him and yet there's people calling him a nutjob. Do you think Bradley or another revisionist will ever get a chance to go on TV again? And has anyone contacted David Cole since he had to take back everything he said?

By the way is there any books you would recommend me read as well?

Thank you Mojo :)

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Mojo » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:28 am)

Jazz wrote:It's really annoying how the man interviewing Bradley and David keeps going off topic.


Atypical behavior of believers.

Jazz wrote:I didn't know Bradley was on TV and stuff, I've only seen his blogs on Youtube and books on Amazon. But his books got a lot of bad reviews why is that? He has a lot of evidence and research behind him and yet there's people calling him a nutjob.


Bradley, as well as others here have been dedicated to researching the holocau$t for decades. His books probably get bad reviews because anyone that questions the holocau$t is deemed a nutjob. Only the jewish version is allowed to be considered, & it better not be questioned! Revisionists have been threatened, attacked, had houses, businesses & careers destroyed for questioning the holocau$t story.

Jazz wrote:Do you think Bradley or another revisionist will ever get a chance to go on TV again?


I doubt it, although I'd say that he and others would if given a fair debate.

Jazz wrote:...has anyone contacted David Cole since he had to take back everything he said?


It's suppose it's possible but, if it were to get out that he was speaking with revisionists, the JDL is liable to come knocking again.

Jazz wrote:By the way is there any books you would recommend me read as well?


The Hoax of the 20th Century by Arthur Butz would be a good one --> http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/ Anything on this page is good material too --> http://codoh.com/majorworks.html Hopefully some of the others will jump in here on reading recommendations.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:20 am)

Hello :)

I have some more questions to ask if that's ok. What do revisionists have to say to this:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/america ... ic-12.html

It's an article from "Skeptic Magazine" on how they proved the gas chambers really did exist. If someone can respond and prove this wrong with evidence/references I'm definitely switching sides.

Thank you

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Mojo » 9 years 8 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:07 am)

That TV show you mentioned Bradley & David being in, is the same Donahue show that Shermer refers to in the nizkor article. It's over at holocaustdenialvideos with commentary if you haven't watched the entire episode.

Here's what Mr. Smith had to say about the Donahue show a couple years ago. --> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4692&start=30

Bradley Smith wrote:I just watched the Phil D. video being discussed here. Haven't seen it in maybe ten years, longer. The most striking thing for me watching it now is to recall how it is when the entire house is against you. Host, guests, audience, callers --- everyone. No wonder people don't want to get into this business (which is not a business).

I see too that I let stuff get by me. The most glaring was the lady on stage and her visuals about the crematoria etc. By that time, however, I was rather in the back seat, and PD was giving the floor to all the others.

Re why David did not return to the show: he was so frustrated by PD's use of the Dachau "gas chamber" door and the "suggestion" that people were seeing victims of that "gas chamber," and his not being allowed to make clear the historical and factual matter at stake there, that he thought what the hell, what's the point?

By coincidence, David and Shermer returned to California on the same flight. Shermer was very disappointed with his own work on the show. This happened a long time ago, I got the story from David, so I won't go into detail --- other than to emphasize that Shermer was embarrassed by how he had handled the matter. And then I discovered later, I forget who told me, maybe Shermer told me, that he had met backstage with the survivor ladies and chatted them up. He particularly asked them to not say anything "crazy" (something to that effect). Come to think about it I suspect that it was the foolish, fantastical, and probably lying statements of some of the survivor ladies, and his association with them, that might have been at the heart of his embarrassment.

Of course, neither David or I was introduced to the survivor ladies, where maybe we could have --- what? Anyhow, Shermer was introduced to them, we were not, and that fact was kept private by PD.

These kinds of interviews do not work if you want to discuss historical fact, there just isn't time. With this subject, on network television, you will never have a cooperative host, always have too many people involved so that no one argument can ever reach its end. And then "human interest" always trumps ideas on mainline media, particularly if the subject is a bit taboo.

In any event, it's a difficult business.
Online it's easy. On the ground it's something else.


I'd like to suggest you watch this video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTeopOdov-U Shermer's in there a couple times offering his "skeptical" opinion of christianity. See my first reply about Treblinka and ask yourself -- Why would he not accept the lack of physical/archaeological evidence of mass murder at Treblinka? It shouldn't be too hard to find 1%, a nominal amount of physical evidence that 870,000 people burned on an outdoor grill should it? The 'eyewitnesses' claim to know the precise location of the mass graves there.

Unfortunately, we'll probably (and understandably) never get to hear a response from Cole regarding any of the claims Shermer makes.

A convergance of evidence Shermer says... To me that's like throwing a lot of shit in the air and hoping it all comes together at some point under the right conditions.

Watch this video too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CysKB8sv5k

I can't make you believe anything, you have to decide for yourself. Try using the search feature here and maybe you'll find what you're looking for. Please don't consider my thoughts as the 'revisionists' final words.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 8 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:37 pm)

I watched the videos... :| I think for me now at least it's obvious gas chambers didn't exist. No one denies that Hitler wanted to deport Jews at the beginning of the war, so why would he change his mind so abruptly? I can't believe all this important information is being kept away from mainstream media, especially everything that was revealed in the holocaust trial! How is it that Jews and holocaust historians can keep lying to everyone and ignoring revisionists?

When is someone going to speak up again? A person on Youtube wrote to me and said, "Revisionists have to wait for Auschwitz survivors to pass away." but children of the survivors are calling themselves holocaust survivors as well, even talking about the terrible atrocities the Nazis committed in Auschwitz like they were there or something. My own mum called me a skinhead for having an interest in holocaust revisionism, laughed at the idea and brushed it off as ignorance. She doesn't care enough to listen :cry:

Still, if the truth never comes out I'm just glad I know the holocaust is a lie.

Thank you Mojo
Last edited by Jazz on Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Mojo » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:08 pm)

I'm glad you took the time to watch the videos I recommended. At least you're willing to look at the other side of the story. Most people won't even entertain the thought, much less consider there might be some truth to it.

If you really start looking into it, you will find that the entire story is built on liewitness testimony. Much like the 1st trial of John Demjanjuk when eyewitnesses testified under oath that he was none other than Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, for which he was convicted and sentenced to death. Had it not been for the dilligent work of Jim Traficant, he would have been hung instead of aquitted and released. http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/d ... s_201.html Of course you won't find that on his Wiki page, & look what's happened to him since. Half the politicians in Washington would be in jail if we applied the same standards.

Do you see a pattern? Anyone that makes noise about the overwhelming lack of evidence that the Germans gassed millions of jews meets a similar demise. Prison, careers ended, violent attacks. The rest of us get the usual self-righteous, indignant ad hom & strawman tactics, bewegung, denier, nutjob. In my book, the truth doesn't fear investigation.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Pappy Yokum » 9 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:26 pm)

This is in response to the article linked in this topic.
The article is titled “Proving the Gas Chambers & Crematoria” by Michael Shermer of SKEPTIC Magazine.

The article attempts to answer of how we know the Nazis killed large numbers of Jews in gas chambers. The answer “a convergence of evidence from various sources.”

What is meant by a convergence of evidence by Dr. Shermer is the careful selection of data needed to reach a predetermined conclusion. What Shermer does, like all of the Holocaust authors I have read who believe in the Nazi genocide, is start with the conclusion and work backward gathering evidence to support it. Like the Looking Glass cake, which is first served and cut afterward, Dr. Shermer gets the order reversed. [BTW, Dr. Shermer has a PhD in the history of science from Claremont Graduate University.]

Dr. Shermer lists five categories of evidence, though these can be boiled down to three: postwar testimony, contemporaneous documents, and physical evidence.

For postwar testimony, the article offers that of four people, though I am sure many more could be used. The author states there are thousands of postwar testimonies. So there are. Nevertheless, testimony concerning gassing of Jews is rare.

Judith Berg, and Edith Gleick claim to have spent time at Auschwitz as prisoners during the war. The testimony offered from them was gathered on the Phil Donahue television show. Neither of the witnesses, at least as related in the article, claim to have witnessed a gassing take place. Berg claims to have witnessed the mass burning of bodies. Gleick witnessed and was subjected to the “selection” process upon arrival at the camp.

Auschwitz and Birkenau camps had a high mortality rate in 1942 and 1943. In 1944 this was reduced, but prisoners and staff died there throughout its operation primarily from disease. That is why the crematories were built at Birkenau. There were a total of 46 single-body retorts or ovens at the camp. Fuel deliveries for them were recorded during 1943 and these records were published in the Pressac book cited by Dr. Shermer. They indicate there was enough fuel being delivered to cremate around 100 people per day during that time.

If Judith Berg and Edith Gleick were at Auschwitz, it was probably in 1944. No new crematory facilities were build at the camp that year. And coke fuel deliveries stopped. In order to dispose of those that died of disease at the camp, the Nazis turned to wood. Sometimes the bodies were burned in the crematories using wood. Sometimes they were burned out of doors on wood pyres.
The phrase “mass burning of bodies” can describe the cremation of 50 corpses or 5000. What Berg witnessed didn’t have anything to do with the gassing of Jews. People died at the camp of diseases. The bodies were cremated.

The process of “selection” upon arrival at Auschwitz had nothing to do with gassing either. The Nazis would sort people based on how the camp was organized and labor needs. The camp was segregated by sex. Women and children lived in one area of the camp while men were housed in another. Auschwitz was a complex of camps and satellite camps. Prisoners were sorted out based on job skills. If there was a need for a particular skill, a prisoner with that skill was selected and sent to where that skill was in demand. Prisoners with no employable skills were housed and remained unemployed. Prisoners who were ill when they arrived were selected out and sent to the main camp where the hospital blocks were.

How these two women’s testimony contribute to “a convergence of evidence” for the use of gas chambers to kill Jews en masse escapes me. They don’t even claim to have seen one.

The other two witnesses cited by Dr. Schermer are Rudolf Hoess and Pery Broad who were both Nazis who worked at Auschwitz. Hoess was a camp commander and Broad was a SS-Unterscharfuehrer which is equivalent to a corporal or sergeant. He was not a high-ranking member of the SS.

The testimony of Hoess has been treated extensively by Arthur Butz and others. Hoess went into hiding at the end of the war and was captured by the British. He was beaten upon his arrest. He was put in an unheated prison cell and deprived of sleep. He claims to have been beaten in British custody with his own riding crop. His testimony was extracted using torture and contradicts itself and in other cases information in it has proven incorrect. Butz rightly calls it a pack of lies.

Supposedly corroborating Hoess’ confessions is the report Pery Broad wrote while also in the custody of the British. Broad’s testimony is dissected by Dr. Wilhelm Staeglich in THE AUSCHWITZ MYTH. I have not seen Broad’s report. For some reason I cannot find it. All I have seen are references to it and selected quotes.

Dr. Shermer writes in the article that “Broad was never tortured and he had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by confessing.” It may be he was not tortured. I don’t know. The problem is he wasn’t confessing to anything other than being a witness. He did have something to gain by writing his report. He gained early release. When his report was used against him at trial some 15 years later Broad said he could not stand by everything in his report because some of what he wrote was based on hearsay.

Both Hoess and Broad had a general understanding of the gas chamber story after the war because the American WRB report, published in November of 1944, outlined it. This and the fact that the British interrogated both of these men makes the claim that they gave independent accounts that corroborate one another incredible. Laughable, really.

Testimony is very poor evidence. That there is a lot of it just makes for a large pile of poor evidence. Testimony should be a starting point. It is the accusation for which evidence for and against has to be gathered.

The article cites documents as another part of the convergence of evidence allowing the credulous to know there were Jews gassed en masse. It divides these into photographs, and written documents. I assume this refers to contemporaneous documents.
Receipts for Zyklon B are not evidence of gas chambers because Zyklon B was a fumigant that was used in the camps for ridding barracks of lice and to clean scrap material being processed at Auschwitz. Pressac’s book contains lots of blueprints of delousing facilities at Auschwitz and Birkenau. Lice were a big problem and the typhus they spread killed ten of thousands of people at the camp. I invite you to look at Pressac’s book. Pressac, for all the documentation he presents, has no proof there were any gas chambers for killing Jews at Auschwitz. What he claims to have found are “criminal traces.” A word in a document here, or there. The book claims to document the gas chambers. It doesn’t. Everything in it having to do with the gassing of Jews is postwar testimony.

The photo of the bodies being burned out of doors at Auschwitz referred to shows a few dozen bodies being burned on pyres. I have read it is a fake, but I am not able to judge. It may be a real image that is misrepresented. That would make it a fake. The misrepresentation would be it was the burning of gas chamber victims rather than the cremation of prisoners who died from disease.
Mattogno examines this photo in detail. I will list the reference works below.

There is no physical evidence of gassings or gas chambers. Van Pelt has recently said so. So did Arno Mayer in WHY DID HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? The difference between me and these two is they believe in the gas chambers despite the lack of evidence and I don’t because of the lack of evidence.

Shermer writes of negative evidence: “documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed.” The problem with this approach is it assumes Jews were mostly put into camps. That is not the case. During 1942 and 1943 around 1.8 to 2.5 million Jews were deported east to live in ghettos and towns set up for them there. These people were not among the “liberated.” This is what is called creative accounting.

Reference works.

Butz
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/

Faurisson
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p103_Faurisson.html

Mattogno
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/aoai.pdf

Mayer
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Did-Heavens-Not-Darken/dp/0394571541

Pressac
http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation

Shermer
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.html

Staeglich
http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres6/WSeng.pdf

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:13 am)

Thank you Pappy Yokum :)

Have eyewitnesses of the gas chambers taken a lie detector test at all? Have any of the survivors?

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby nathan » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:04 am)

Although I am no revisionist I do try to be a fairly devout skeptic, and I take a dim view of slackers like Shermer who give my religion a bad name. Pappy Yokum might also have quoted, from Shermer’s essay:.

Broad and Hoess never saw each other before Hoess's capture on March 11, 1946 (10 months after Broad). But even if one wanted to fantasize a secret meeting between the two before Broad was captured, why would they confabulate a story that would surely convict them? There is no way to rationalize this convergence of evidence.


So Hoess and Broad never met. That puts paid to all those revisionists who thought Hoess and Broad got together and secretly framed themselves.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:10 am)

But Broad and Hoess already had an understanding of the gas chamber story. So why would they have to meet in secret?

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Mortimer » 9 years 7 months ago (Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:21 pm)

Hi Jazz,
As your location is listed as Australia I thought you might be interested in the case of Alexander McClelland. He was a world war 2 veteran of North Africa and Greece who was imprisoned at Theresienstadt. Based on his own experiences and further research he became a holocaust revisionist and wrote about it in his book THE ANSWER - JUSTICE http://www.aijf.org/book.html Maybe you could say to your mother how is it that a war veteran who fought the nazis was a revisionist when according to her they are all skinheads and neo-nazis? Another interesting page from his website http://www.aijf.org/frauds_exposed.html
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby Jazz » 9 years 7 months ago (Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:00 am)

Thank you Mortimer! My mum doesn't say anything bad about revisionists now. She even found "Judea Declares War on Germany" by Frederick Toben for me :)

By the way has anyone seen this?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276197/

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Re: Can someone answer this question please?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:23 am)

Pappy Yokum wrote:This is in response to the article linked in this topic.
The article is titled “Proving the Gas Chambers & Crematoria” by Michael Shermer of SKEPTIC Magazine.

The article attempts to answer of how we know the Nazis killed large numbers of Jews in gas chambers. The answer “a convergence of evidence from various sources.”

[...]


I'm new to revisionism and learned of the Shermer name recently. I was lead to this article in particular through some others trying to convince me this was somehow evidence of gassings. As I read it, even as a beginner, I could sense something wasn't quite right.

The following quotes are from the Nikzor site:

Revisionists will ask how I can believe Berg after her claim about seeing them make soap out of human bodies. My answer is twofold: (1) we do not accept eyewitness accounts by themselves as proof of the Holocaust or gas chamber story, without corroboration from other eyewitnesses as well as physical evidence; (2) in this particular case, Berg was enraged at Bradley Smith for denying what she knows happened to her own family members and friends, and struck out at him with this statement when he also challenged the soap story.


In bold: They don't accept eyewitness accounts without corroboration, but they use other eyewitness accounts to corroborate? So one bad story is bad, but more than one makes it true? What kind of person thinks likes this? :?

Revisionists point out that Broad's four minutes for the total process is at odds with the statements of others such as the commandant Hoess, who claim it was more like 20 minutes. Because of these minor discrepancies, revisionists dismiss the account entirely (Cole, 1994). But this is an inappropriate use of historical data. A dozen different accounts give a dozen different figures for time of death by gassing. Does the fact that their times are not perfectly matched mean that people were not actually gassed at all? Of course not. In fact, the gassing process would take different lengths of time due to any number of conditions, including the temperature (Zyklon-B dispersal depends on the air temperature), number of people in the room, the size of the room, and the amount of gas poured into the room; not to mention the psychological differences in time perception by different observers. If the estimation of times were exactly the same, in fact, we would have to be suspicious that they were all taking their story from a single account.


This paragraph essentially says there is no way to estimate the number of alleged gassed prisoners. If many witnesses make as many claims, there certainly can't be any reliable way to know which numbers to use to determine average amounts since the witness accounts can be warped by so many different factors in that of themselves. There's no way to know how many prisoners were allegedly put into the rooms. There's no way to know how much gas was allegedly used each time. Was someone logging the humidity in the chambers before each alleged gassing? Far too many variables to say how many could be "exterminated".

Cole's fallacy of thinking in general, however, is to assume that the gas chamber account rests on these details alone. It does not. Kogon, et al, for example, include dozens of eyewitness accounts that reinforce the physical evidence for each of the camps.


Again, eyewitness accounts corroborated by other stated unreliable accounts (by themselves) which back up the physical evidence, which is supposed to be backing up the eyewitness accounts. Dizzying. Using one form of uncorroborated evidence to corroborate another form of uncorroborated evidence, and on and on.

When one has overwhelming evidence from many different sources about mass homicides at a death camp, one may not notice what kind of door handle is on one gas chamber.


Wouldn't something like a door handle be considered some of this supposed "overwhelming evidence" from "many sources"?
Of course not, especially from the people who accept this "evidence" based on other unsubstantiated evidence.

[continued]
Unless, of course, one goes there in search of problems in order to support a particular thesis, which is what I believe Cole has done--consciously or unconsciously.


They certainly can't have any of that kind of investigating! How dare anyone break down the "accepted truths" to a form that may render them not-so-acceptable.
The toothpaste doesn't go back into the tube.

The capability of the crematoria to dispose of over a million bodies at Auschwitz in the course of several years was certainly there. The realities of the process, however, which takes quite a toll on the machinery, were quite another thing. In short, the Nazis had a terrible time disposing of the bodies they were gassing. The crematoria were constantly breaking down. This is why we have so many reports (and a photograph) of the mass burnings of bodies in open pits and fields--yet another convergence of evidence.


Or it could simply mean there were no mass killings by way of gassing and the machinery couldn't keep up with the duty of disposing of the bodies that were building up from disease. The possibilities are endless, and for anyone to declare one is correct based on uncorroborated evidence that's based on other uncorroborated evidence sounds more like the ones who are converging.


All in all, thank you to Pappy Yokum for his insight and response to the article.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
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