a college student's request for help

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ovd1965
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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby ovd1965 » 9 years 3 months ago (Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:29 am)

Hi, am new here and I am from Germany.

Sorry for my bad English , but I left school 25 years ago.

I am 45 and spend half of my life in GDR /Eastgermany (no it was not the worst place on earth , no I am not a communist)
I know how easily a dictatorship can handle all the things like education, public opinion , history teaching etc.
It is absolutly clear that I was growing up with the "officially story" about what happened during WW2.

But the other side of every dictatorship is : what happened behind closed doors.
I want to give you some short notes about my way to scepticsm. I am using 5 examples :

1.) was growing up with the official story of Katyn. But in family circles, behind closed doors, in nightly student discussion circle
it became clear that many many people know about the truth , or dont belive the officially version

but never I have seen a PUBLIC discussion about this

2.) every time we spoke about german soviet friendship, "very thankfully to the soviet liberators",
in the same second many people have in mind : "fu... russians"
we have he officially story about liberation , but millions of people (parents, grandparents) who have
an "different" view about the liberation days

3.) My family is living in a very small town for many generations, everybody knows everybody.
At school we must listen to the stories of the "old fighters" , antifascists.(same thing as holocaust
survivors invade american schools) , but in our little town this story went very silly :
the old fighters , Mr.X and Mrs Y were very well known ! communist party members , but after
1933 they did nothing ! but in 1945 they went to the russians and presented the old party books.
So they got good jobs in the new communist administration and the "fighter" story was born.

All older people in our town know that , but nobody challeged this silly story in public.

4.) Grandpas little machine manufacture employed some polish "slave" workers , and soviet Pows
when I was a little boy the polish men came to visit us , It was a very friendly atmosphere .. I was surprised
Surprisingly I learned that the two russians emigrated to Canada after war , they did not going back
to Stalins workers paradies ! Why?

Growing up with hundreds off such "mind troubling" events, I installed a little room in my mind , called
"Taboo room". such stories were stored in this room.
During the years this room went very full!

My conclusion (also fits to the deleted thread "Hoax") : the fairytale "Emperors new clothes" happened every day in our live
and most people know that. But it is fine to see , that every time someone someday will say : the Emperor is naked!

After reunion and getting access to Internet I was learning a lot about the Holocaust and WW2.
Amazing learning : Holocaust deniers are also: leftists, jewish,french former resistance fighters, came from europe, america, etc.
correcting error : Holocaust deniers are not only german neonazis ....

I am an engineer and I realized that it is necessary to see such things without emotional and /or political influences
to see the truth.

After reading most of the revisionists , the most disturbing things for me is to see :

how the Holocaust defenders avoid scientific/forensic searching directly on the crime scene.

how the Holocaust defenders try to use all kinds of defamation to every sceptic

It is not understandable for an engineer.

It is an amazing experience that you dont have to read revisionists, but reading "suvivor stories" with an clear open mind
to be forced to left the "belivers community"

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby vincentferrer » 9 years 3 months ago (Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:21 pm)

Good post.

Your post is a reminder to all revisionists to keep spreading the truth.

As an example, when the honorable ( and I mean honorable) Bradley Smith posted a 7 word ad in the University of Wisconsin newspaper, the Badger, he was
blasted in the newspaper blog.

I spent weeks posting truthful rebuttals in the student newspaper blog, and important facts about the Holocaust to help set the record straight. My posts were referred to a posts from a Neo Nazi.

I called some of the professors who were raising cain over the ad, and also spoke to a Jewish student at the Badger newspaper. We had a very polite discussion about revisionism. I told him the evidence suggests nobody got gassed. He was very respectful of that statement. Amazing but true!

The UW professors that I spoke to on the phone were rude, ( really RUDE) and refused to listen to ANY fact that went against the legend they think is true. They personally insulted me and tried to equate my statements with someone who might think the moon landing is fake. ( I am quite sure the moon landing is genuine).

Quite frankly, that surprised me. However, it has reinforced my determination on these matters.

Plenty of college kids are VERY open minded on the Holocaust Hoax. Some professors are also in that group.

Time is better spent trying to convert the students.
The very word holocaust is a pejorative to every German citizen. There was no holocaust,
just lies from the abandoned race.

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 3 months ago (Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:39 am)

I don't know if you are aware of it.

But here is the result of the College kid "researches"
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/vie ... ors_theses

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 3 months ago (Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:25 am)

Balsamo wrote:I don't know if you are aware of it.

But here is the result of the College kid "researches"
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/vie ... ors_theses



Collegkid,
The vast bulk of your research cites posts on the idotic RODOH forum, and even worse you quote the Holocaust Controversies crap blog.

Your research is therefore worthless.

Sorry,

BB
Blog Buster!

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby The Warden » 9 years 3 months ago (Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:35 pm)

Balsamo wrote:I don't know if you are aware of it.

But here is the result of the College kid "researches"
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/vie ... ors_theses


This could almost have its own thread(s).
There's a lot to pick apart in there.
Of course, we could use the Wiesel approach and ignore it, thereby voiding any credibility of the author. :cheers:
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby athenarena » 9 years 3 months ago (Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:35 pm)

I just got called an anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi if we listen to that tripe for believing that there are more than likely and very logically exaggerations in the stories of the Holocaust but it did fundamentally happen.

For a thesis, that was god awful! I can write better than that!

NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 3 months ago (Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:14 am)

Balsamo wrote:I don't know if you are aware of it.

But here is the result of the College kid "researches"
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/vie ... ors_theses

I've only skimmed it. I can't be bothered to read it all. But why do you connect it to this thread?

Only in Holocaust Studies could such a blinkered, prejudiced piece of polemic pass for "academic". Ad hominem appears to be their only argument.

Atherena wrote: I just got called an anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi if we listen to that tripe for believing that there are more than likely and very logically exaggerations in the stories of the Holocaust but it did fundamentally happen.

Better get used to it. For a long time I was a Holocaust agnostic but would suggest that the Revisionists' criticisms should be examined openly, like in any other field of history. If they were as meretricious as was suggested it should not be difficult to demonstrate. Guess what I would get called.

You have to remember that it isn't history, it's religion. The only one that most of the Western world outside the USA has today. I love the idea that the poor and uneducated have to be protected! Doesn't that rather give the game away?

Mind you, there is some truth in the following;
the intense hostility of denial websites and lack of “professionalism” can have the unintentional effect of driving people
in a different direction. Therefore, Holocaust denial is harmed by the enthusiasm of its promoters, effectively blunting its impact.

Revisionist supporters have to be as calm and reasonable as the Revisionist historians.

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby athenarena » 9 years 3 months ago (Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:01 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
Atherena wrote: I just got called an anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi if we listen to that tripe for believing that there are more than likely and very logically exaggerations in the stories of the Holocaust but it did fundamentally happen.

Better get used to it. For a long time I was a Holocaust agnostic but would suggest that the Revisionists' criticisms should be examined openly, like in any other field of history. If they were as meretricious as was suggested it should not be difficult to demonstrate. Guess what I would get called.

You have to remember that it isn't history, it's religion. The only one that most of the Western world outside the USA has today. I love the idea that the poor and uneducated have to be protected! Doesn't that rather give the game away?


Did you not hear the bemused, what the hell voice when that was said? *shakes head*. Some people these days. Game up completely. I mean seriously, everything is revised in history, that is how it works. Open the gates, allow indpendent testing that can be verified on both sides and allow the ghost rest and those killed by whatever method under the harsh regime that was Nazi Germany rest in peace. Their treatment of Non-Aryans was despicable, that cannot be argued with. I give up sometimes with my elders I do. Sometimes I feel like I am the adult and they are the child.

NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 3 months ago (Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:01 pm)

Balsamo wrote:I don't know if you are aware of it.

But here is the result of the College kid "researches"
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/vie ... ors_theses




How do you know that is him?


He writes: "Holocaust “revisionists” merely spread false propaganda and are better known as
Holocaust deniers. Holocaust deniers are dangerous because they distort information in order to
create a lie—effectively inventing their own version of history."


A Psych major could use his essay as a thesis for projection; accusing others of what you are guilty of doing.

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Pappy Yokum » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:08 am)

athenarena wrote:
Did you not hear the bemused, what the hell voice when that was said? *shakes head*. Some people these days. Game up completely. I mean seriously, everything is revised in history, that is how it works. Open the gates, allow independent testing that can be verified on both sides and allow the ghost rest and those killed by whatever method under the harsh regime that was Nazi Germany rest in peace. Their treatment of Non-Aryans was despicable, that cannot be argued with. I give up sometimes with my elders I do. Sometimes I feel like I am the adult and they are the child.

NSNO,
Athenarena


What you experienced in these people is call "cognitive dissonance." That is the uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously.
People are trained in the Holocaust story rather than educated in it. What I mean by that is people are taught to have an emotional attachment to it. When the topic is brought up, specific emotions anchored to it come along. Someone expressing doubt, or disbelief, is immediately suspect. The motives for doubt are concluded to be sinister. The head stops listening.

You have to understand the average person knows and has read very little about the topic, but nevertheless has a strong emotional bond to it. That is because people are trained to have a strong respect and even love for the authority figures who trained them to believe in the Holocaust. Questioning the Holocaust take is questioning authority. Authority is based on trust. If the Holocaust is false, then that trust has been violated and the person feels the fool. It is not surprise people react with ad hominems. It is an easy and intellectually lazy way to respond to someone who has created the uncomfortable feeling.

If you want to understand this phenomenon in more detail, research Neuro Linguistic Programming. It is an area of psycho-therapy based on hypnosis. It was developed in the 1970's by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. After some practice using the principles of NLP, you can predict who is going to be open-minded and who isn't, what situations might be conducive to discuss the topic and when to keep quiet.

athenarena wrote:I just got called an anti-Semitic, Neo-Nazi if we listen to that tripe for believing that there are more than likely and very logically exaggerations in the stories of the Holocaust but it did fundamentally happen.

For a thesis, that was god awful! I can write better than that!

NSNO,
Athenarena


I am not sure what you mean by "it did fundamentally happen." The Holocaust story proposes that the Nazis attempted to kill the Jews of Europe, and specifically set up locations for that purpose. The "extermination camps" were part of an official government program to murder them outright. That fundamentally did not happen. What happened was this: The Nazis wanted the Jews to leave Germany. Laws were passed to make life difficult for Jews. Before the war started in 1939 most German Jews emigrated to other countries in Europe and outside the continent. Until 1940 the goal was emigration. From 1940 to the beginning of 1942, the Nazis toyed with the idea of deporting Jews to Madagascar or some other remote location. The war had brought a halt to emigration. When the Nazis invaded the U.S.S.R. in 1941, the Communists depopulated large areas ahead of the invading German army. The Nazis saw this as an opportunity to isolate the Jews, whom they distrusted, until they won the war. During 1942 and 1943 about 2.5 million Jews were deported East and resettled in ghettos and shtetls. Thousands of Jews as well as Poles spent time in labor camps. Since communists were the first put into camps by the Nazis, they were the ones in control of the inmate populations. The Nazi staff at many of the labor depended on inmates to supervise each other. As the Nazis retreated in 1944 and 1945 the policy changed again. Jews were sent west to work. This was what happened until the end of the war. The Nazis were fighting a war against guerrillas in the East. As what typically happens in that situation, the local population was be punished for guerrilla activities. There were reprisal shootings and hangings for sabotage and attacks on German soldiers.
One other thing that must be understood is FDR declared that only unconditional surrender would be accepted by the Allies. This meant Germany had nothing to lose by fighting for as long as possible. By the spring of 1945, Germany was exhausted. The conditions the Allied soldiers found in the Nazi camps was a direct result of the Allied unconditional surrender policy.

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby ovd1965 » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:19 am)

I understand the function of the "system" by personal experience. Nobody wants to be the "bad guy" swimming against
mainstream. But during a life time , you collect a lot of knowledge and learn a lot from people (grandparents etc.) that is
troubling your mind.

Looking at youtube some clips with Norman Finckelstein and some young audience , it is absolutely silly to see young people
(without any personal experience or connection to the holocaust) weeping, crying and calling Finckelstein a bad guy.

Years ago I was watching a clip from a US TV show with a talkmaster , David Cole and some others.
It was amazing to see how clever they mix the discussion with pictures and filmclips from Dachau and other camps or using the enragement of holosurvivors in the audience.
There was also a mainstream holo historian in the show , saying the soap and skin lampshade story is not true.
He was really no denier and it was funny to see , how the holocaust survivors in the audience were enraged about
this "brave holo historian".....calling him a liar and that they have seen the soap personally.......

at least : read David Coles public "Kotau" and you know it is the same scheme of "professions" found in Stalins
"Moscow Trials" and a lot of other trials in eastern communist countries.
These simple sentences of self accusation, the choice of the words , that is a medival penitential pilgrimage.

After collecting "taboos" over the years in my mind, I was learning during my study time that also other people are
troubled about some contradictions.Perhaps, the reason was the scientific study (engineer). If you are an open minded
technical orientated man , you are able to see some strange things in the "H.. story".

But I also learned that most people are not able or willing to "think the unthinkable".
Some hundreds years ago it must be very difficult to believe the earth is a globe, after "knowing" that the earth is a plate
for so long.

My personal "Initial spark" was to read and think about technical aspects : dimensions of burning pits, the amount of fuel needed,
the amount of people and time to handle the alleged giant burnings and de-earthing-burning-crushing bones-to bury the reamins and finally : making all that "traceless"........

After decades of holocaust education , people react to the case only with "Pawlovs reflexes" , but surpringly many people
convert to a denier not by being a nazi or antisemit ,but by learning details and go deeper in to the technical scienific
sphere of the H.

Besides the scientific doubts , there are lots of other strange things.

I spend some weeks researching yadvashems names database. Using the search function : deathplace , deathdate etc you can find amazing cases :

Deathplaces like : New York, Shanghai, China, Siberia, Finland, Africa etc.

surprising deathdate / deathplace combinations : eastern poland 1934 ( think Hitlers 5.colonna was murdering 1934 in eastern Poland ?)

soviet soldiers Killed in action in Finland are labeled Holocaust victim !

How many people are over 100 years old (in an ordinary statistical view)? try to search with birthdates like 1825 onwards....

the clever thing is : they only display up to 1000 names per search ... so you can not do deeper statistical searchings....

Yesterday I found the following story on youtube : A survivor telling her children and grandchildren over the years , that all brothers died in holocaust. The grandchildren do some searching on yadvashem database and found the name of her grandma as dead holocaust victim ! the name was send to yadvashem database by the brothers (!) of the grandma. both sides were thinking the others are dead........finally : grandma and her brothers were reunited after 60 years........
(you can find a lot of same written or youtube stories in the www)

The hole case is like a knitted woollen scarf : grab one string , pull and the thing will disappear.........

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:42 am)

How do you know that is him?


Because College Kid came on Rodoh as well...the work appeared a couple of weeks later...The two forums are taken as an example...
the author tried to give substance to her work at the very last minutes and of course mixed things up a bit, as she describes Pooshoodog fom rofoh as a "rude denier"...ahaha...

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:33 am)

Pappy Yokum and ovd1965:

Two excellent, thoughtful posts.

Thank you.

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby athenarena » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:47 am)

Pappy Yokum wrote:What you experienced in these people is call "cognitive dissonance." That is the uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously.
People are trained in the Holocaust story rather than educated in it. What I mean by that is people are taught to have an emotional attachment to it. When the topic is brought up, specific emotions anchored to it come along. Someone expressing doubt, or disbelief, is immediately suspect. The motives for doubt are concluded to be sinister. The head stops listening.

You have to understand the average person knows and has read very little about the topic, but nevertheless has a strong emotional bond to it. That is because people are trained to have a strong respect and even love for the authority figures who trained them to believe in the Holocaust. Questioning the Holocaust take is questioning authority. Authority is based on trust. If the Holocaust is false, then that trust has been violated and the person feels the fool. It is not surprise people react with ad hominems. It is an easy and intellectually lazy way to respond to someone who has created the uncomfortable feeling.

If you want to understand this phenomenon in more detail, research Neuro Linguistic Programming. It is an area of psycho-therapy based on hypnosis. It was developed in the 1970's by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. After some practice using the principles of NLP, you can predict who is going to be open-minded and who isn't, what situations might be conducive to discuss the topic and when to keep quiet.


Oh how interesting. I am liking the idea more and more of doing pyschology in university (in the middle of picking my choices for univerisity here). It is definitely a very intriguing theory that I would love to look more into. However how do that explain why I feel like the adult -as the minor- and the adult as a child?


Pappy Yokum wrote:I am not sure what you mean by "it did fundamentally happen." The Holocaust story proposes that the Nazis attempted to kill the Jews of Europe, and specifically set up locations for that purpose. The "extermination camps" were part of an official government program to murder them outright. That fundamentally did not happen. What happened was this: The Nazis wanted the Jews to leave Germany. Laws were passed to make life difficult for Jews. Before the war started in 1939 most German Jews emigrated to other countries in Europe and outside the continent. Until 1940 the goal was emigration. From 1940 to the beginning of 1942, the Nazis toyed with the idea of deporting Jews to Madagascar or some other remote location. The war had brought a halt to emigration. When the Nazis invaded the U.S.S.R. in 1941, the Communists depopulated large areas ahead of the invading German army. The Nazis saw this as an opportunity to isolate the Jews, whom they distrusted, until they won the war. During 1942 and 1943 about 2.5 million Jews were deported East and resettled in ghettos and shtetls. Thousands of Jews as well as Poles spent time in labor camps. Since communists were the first put into camps by the Nazis, they were the ones in control of the inmate populations. The Nazi staff at many of the labor depended on inmates to supervise each other. As the Nazis retreated in 1944 and 1945 the policy changed again. Jews were sent west to work. This was what happened until the end of the war. The Nazis were fighting a war against guerrillas in the East. As what typically happens in that situation, the local population was be punished for guerrilla activities. There were reprisal shootings and hangings for sabotage and attacks on German soldiers.
One other thing that must be understood is FDR declared that only unconditional surrender would be accepted by the Allies. This meant Germany had nothing to lose by fighting for as long as possible. By the spring of 1945, Germany was exhausted. The conditions the Allied soldiers found in the Nazi camps was a direct result of the Allied unconditional surrender policy.


You basically just described what I believe in. That non-Aryans were isolated, abused, overworked, starved, beaten, shot and that is what I believe in the epicentre of the Holocaust. I still hold doubts over gas chambers but believe that what those isolated suffered was a crime against humanity as it was inhumane and butchery and you were picked on not because of who you are but what you are.

Almost like Jerusalem's fall in 1099.

NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: a college student's request for help

Postby ovd1965 » 9 years 3 months ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:07 pm)

@Athenarena:

no doubt , it was a very cruel war , but it has (especially in the east) a lot of reasons. The polish historian Bogdan Musial wrote something about the interaction of atrocities on both sides.

Late in war you can find more and more brutality , even forced from partisan activities.

Wellington wrote : "Partisan war opens the gate to hell"

Is an incident like the massacre of MyLai (Vietnam) the proof for a long term , planned extermination of vietnamese
people ? or is it the result of the interactions in war ?

Regarding Jerusalem 1099 : you can find here a good example of revisionism , hundreds of years it was "knowledge"
( or say it with GERMAN JURISTICAL TERMS : § 130 : NOTORIOUSNESS) that 70.000 were killed , now we find most serious
historians saying : perhaps 30.000 , but also not sure , because they have doubts about the number of inhabitans.
( it is comparable with some H stories ; the crusaders killed more people than present in Jerusalem)


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