Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
The Wiki section
cites the Zyklon B labels from Dachau used as evidence of lethal gassing.
'Title: Labels taken from canisters of Zyklon B from the Dachau Gas Installation
Description: The first and third panels contain the German Pest Control Company emblem and the brand name Zyklon. The center panel reads "Poison Gas!" "Cyanide Preparation! [skull and crossbones] to be opened and used only by trained personnel." The labels were used as evidence at the International Military Tribunal trial of war criminals at Nuremberg'
The faint print says Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung = German Company for Pest Control, i.e. it was a fumigant (thnks to R.W. for info). So the Wiki site is totally deceptive.
I like astro3's position re opening Helpful Hints when discussing the subject with innocents who are open, and how not to lose from the beginning.
I like Vincent Ferrer's position even more.
The debating rules are great, for a serious debate of a small subject. Do not try to debate the whole hollow cost subject. Guaranteed loss, of the argument, as well as of friends. More importantly, no reasonable person, even if they were open, would be able to seriously debate the subject in less than a month. It took most of us years to get here.
No. Better to nail three or four serious points, and let them figure out the rest themselves. And once you have nailed the 3 or 4 points, identify them as a "denier"; remind them that they will be incarcerated in many countries. Leave them with the unresolved issue, that rational scientific questioning has placed them in a criminal position. If they are in the 1%, they will seek resolution.
Ilikerealhistory wrote:not only are 99.9% of Americans have no clue about the details of the holocaust, they have no clue about anything past the nose on their face, and they aren't even sure about their own nose.
Well, they were never taught what that thing was for; how to use it. They were only taught what to think, never to have an original thought or question. And never to smell.
Once the sense of smell is identified as a possibility, and the equipment is pointed out, and activated, they will be able to smell a rat.
But don't hold your breath.
This I follow-up with the fact that serious questioners are imprisoned in most countries in Europe.
If this results in ad hominem attacks on me I simply retort that the talker is unable to formulate a rebuff to my assertion and thus has to resort to the standard counterattack formula.
Let the other party be the guide to the "debate" and simply point out the errors or inconsistencies most people can grasp. The imprisonment in Europe is certainly a most powerful fact to emphasize in North America.
The Primary Definition
H-D means the affirmation, that normal hygiene technology worked in an ordinary, normal way. Many tons of the insecticide zyklon (cyanide in granular form) were used in the German labour-camps from 1942 onwards, and a ‘holocaust denier’ is one who affirms, that it was used, exactly as per the instructions on the tin.
That is the opposite of what was affirmed at Nuremberg in 1946, by US/UK military ‘intelligence,’ whereby merely producing a can of Zyklon, was evidence of mass human gassing.
The wicked, ethically-damned ‘denier’ is one who affirms, or one could say realises, that in response to the arrival of typhus epidemic in the German labour-camps in 1942, delousing technology was installed throughout all of the German labour-camps, so that safe-to-use cyanide gassing technology would kill bugs in all clothing and bedding put into them.
Whereas, 99% of the British people have no idea of the existence of such hygiene gassing technology, and still accept the Nuremberg story, of the huge cyanide gas chambers – for human beings. This is the only topic which cannot be discussed in Britain today.
At Auschwitz, and nowhere else in the world, is evidence for the two kinds of Nazi gas-chamber to be found. The delousing chambers are relatively small, 10 cubic metres in volume, and their remains exist at four camps: Auschwitz, Birkenau, Dachau and Monowitz. Their walls are saturated with iron cyanide, giving them a bluish hue. These are out of bounds for visits to Auschwitz, and only ethically-damned revisionists seek them out.
At Auchwitz also exist remains of buildings, which the big Holocaust textbooks point to as being where IT took place, the terrible technology of mass-destruction, using cyanide gas: that which has never existed before WW2, nor ever after it, and only in Poland. However, these remains never have any significant elevation of wall-cyanide above normal, background levels; or, no-one has yet shown that.
Auschwitz is the spiritual centre of our modern world, a place of pilgrimage.
Reality and Illusion
An estimated thirty million have passed through the human ‘gas chamber’ by the main Auschwitz camp - even after David Cole showed that it was only constructed by Stalin in 1946, after the war (This brilliant young jewish fellow made his classic 1991 video on Auschwitz, which everyone should watch). Nobody to-date can point to ‘remains’ of a human gas chamber which has any significant elevation of wall-cyanide. Its fairly clear that part of that room used to be a washroom, and part of it used to be a morgue.
The crux of the matter here, is that the iron-cyanide bond is permanent: the gas hydrogen cyanide penetrated the walls and bonded permanently with the iron, so that today it can still be measured, a memory of sixty years ago.
The actual Nazi cyanide gas-chambers are closed and out of bounds to tourists, alas. The manufacturing company (which made them 1920-45, after which they were replaced by DDT for delousing) ‘Degesch’ claimed that they were safe enough that operators did not even need a gas-mask. After being ‘zykloned’ for an hour or two, clothing and bedding would be hung out to air, to get the remaining cyanide out.
The storybook gas-chambers were imagined in the modern world in April 1946, when the Auschwitz Kommandant Rudolf Hoss, after being tortured for three days and three nights, and having his family threatened, ‘confessed’ to killing two million Jews using cyanide gas. It came out from washroom pipes in the ceiling, he explained, and everyone was dead in twenty minutes.
The characteristic feature of this image is, its physical impossibility. The world only got to hear of how Hoss had been tortured at Nuremberg in 1983 - a generation believed that Hoss’s story was genuine.
The philosopher Plato described how the common folk were chained so they could only see flickering shadows on the wall, while those behind the scenes manipulated what was shown to them. That is so important in examining how the normal hygiene technology of that period was transmogrified onto something which has never existed on earth and could never exist, but which has now become so sacred an image that Those Who Create Delusion have actually made a new religion out of it. Holo-temples mushroom around the major cities of the world. But, the Philosopher acts without fear, pointing out the difference between what is real and what is not.
At Nuremberg, mere production of a can of Zyklon was taken as evidence of a diabolical human gassing procedure: total amnesia was thus accomplished over the normal, hygiene technology (which was then becoming defunct as DDT replaced it).
In 1988 Fred Leuchter went and sampled the walls of Auchwitz and their cyanide was measured. That showed the very high levels present in the blue delousing-chamber walls. After that, the big Holocaust textbooks had to argue for a dual-use policy, whereby some Zyklon went to delousing chambers to save lives, while some went to big human gas chambers for taking lives. All my life I’ve never heard anyone discuss or try to defend that view in public. Thirdly, there is the ethically-damned view – for the expressing of which one can be jailed in ten European nations - of single use, that the Zyklon was used for what it said on the can, viz delousing; and that the alleged human gas chambers were merely what they appear to be, viz either washrooms or morgues.
This third view implies that the three victor nations, Russia, America and Britain, collaborated together at Nuremberg to fabricate the horror-illusion, which would enable the US/UK to gain the postwar moral high ground, even after incinerating the German cities with two million tons of bombs. No right-thinking person could conceive such a thing – until maybe after Iraq, when we saw how they fabricated the WMD lie without a tremor of conscience. Only then, it dawns upon us, the big human gas chambers were the original WMD hoax.
The New Axis of Debate
I affirm that future debate over ‘The H’ has to revolve around the differential between two chemical sets of data. The normal, control, background level of cyanide found in bedrooms, kitchens etc is 2-3 parts per million, whereas the delousing chamber walls average five thousand parts per million: a two-thousandfold differential, between where cyanide gas was used regularly and where it was not. It’s not rocket science. Samples from the ‘alleged human gassing’ rooms fall into the former category, of 2-3 parts per million - not the latter category of 5000 ppm.
I noticed that, during a period of being intensely ethically-damned and thrown out of my college UCL, I appeared to be the only person in the UK capable of evaluating the three main chemical investigations. Well over a hundred wall-samples have been taken from the old Auschwitz buildings, by Leuchter, by Rudolf and by Marciewitz et al. The brilliant PhD chemist Germar Rudolf at the Max Plank institute had been stimulated, by certain weaknesses in the Leuchter report, to replicate the experiment. I realised discover, that the iron in the old brickwork had bonded permanently with the cyanide gas from sixty years ago, thereby providing a memory of what had then taken place; and that the brickwork had been highly permeable to the cyanide which had soaked right though it. Why did no-one ever mention or discuss this? I ascertained that a sound, rational approach to the subject became possible by my putting together the Rudolf and Leuchter data. Science begins where data is replicated.
The alleged Human Gas Chambers did have a slight mean ferrocyanide above the controls, say 3 ppm compared to 2 ppm, but this was not significant. The ‘background’ level came from the practice of treating rooms once a year or so with Zyklon, to fumigate them, and kill all bugs in cracks etc. That low-level gassing is utterly different from the repeated use of high cyanide gas levels, say around 1000 ppm, hour after hour, day after day, year after year.( Let’s shed a tear for all the schoolkids who go out there, but are not allowed to see the gas chambers! Not being told about or allowed to see the swimming-pool in the main Auschwitz base-camp is bad enough, but not taking them to see the gas-chambers is really going too far.)
The traditional ‘explanation’ for the huge differential sounds more like a joke than a reason: bugs are harder to kill than humans. I’d say the only answer this deserves is that of Fred Leuc hter: ‘I don’t know, I never killed beetles.’ (testifying in a Toronto courtroom – as the US’s top expert on cyanide lethal-gas apparatus).
Joking apart, the chemical evidence is entirely conclusive. More research is not needed. One may express it as: No mass cyanide human gas chambers have ever existed in human history. Popular (no, make that near-universal) belief in them is merely the result of the nightmare-hallucination conjured up by British-American military intelligence at Nuremberg in 1946. Nobody died of cyanide gas in WW2.
Don’t be a denier
‘Revisionists’ come out with ‘negative’ arguments – not a single death was ever diagnosed as due to cyanide in any German labour-camp of WW2; no piles of dead have ever been found due to any alleged gassing process; nor any documents ever found ordering that such a thing be done; no trace of a human gas chamber ever found from WW2, nor film or photographs, etc – yes, that’s all true, but no wonder they get labelled as ‘deniers.’ Given the massive, unrelenting Holo-industry propaganda, who is ever going to believe these ‘negative’ arguments? Do you want to get thrown out of your job, lose your Jewish friends etc? Only (I say) the Chemical Challenge is strong enough: for any alleged human gas chamber found in a German WW2 labour-camp (and the vast Holo-Industry is continually trying to locate these, whereby it can erect new Holo-temples) let us merely measure cyanide in the walls: if it’s not there, it didn’t happen.
Avoid the Abyss
If you have the nerve to bring up the topic (c’mon, give it a try), people immediately begin heated debate, and you’ll be asked right away are you denying the six million? No, don’t do this! Denying what our society considers holy and sacred is not a good idea - just say ‘I don’t know.’ The Hollywood drama of the wicked Nazis and poor jews plays endlessly in people’s minds. Just look blank and refrain from making any comment. Avoid using the J-word, or you will lose control of the debate and maybe also get ethically damned forever - which isn’t nice believe me. I suggest there is only one context in which one needs to use the J-word, and that concerns the horrific German policy of the endlosung der judenfrage: this translates as the ‘end’ or goal’ solution of the Jewish question (‘the final solution’) whereby Nazis attempted to flush out jews from various European nations including their own. This alluded to the movement Eastwards of European jews, and did not have a lethal meaning in any documents examined to-date.
Anyone who wants to believe there was a systematic, planned and intentional Nazi policy of exterminating Jews has to believe it was done by ESP, insofar as there are no documents (amongst the many tons of captured Nazi documents) found that indicate any such thing.
But, most people won’t believe you on this. No documents? No documents? You see them judging you, you’ve gone too far this time. So I suggest focussing on the more positive chemical logic.
People have padlocked minds on this topic, which has been designed to generate hate, despair, nihilism, unbelief - and the endless transfer of cash from Germany to Israel. For that reason I urge a limiting of what you will debate.’One-third of the Holocaust’ was traditionally assigned to carbon monoxide poisoning, from diesel exhaust: I suggest keeping off this topic, just to hold the focus upon the cyanide issue, where the beautiful chemical experiments have been done. Let us dare to dream, of a time when students at a British university will be allowed to debate this chemical evidence, and what it says.
The Book of the Damned
I opened the Book of the damned, and by its hellish infernal light I read – how Zyklon was used before DDT for killing bugs. O no! Was my soul doomed? Were all the good works of my life up till now to be eclipsed, and the cackling sound ‘Nazi! Nazi’ to replace it? Was I doomed to live in the shadows henceforth – as ‘orbituaries’ opined, as I was chucked out of my UCL safe-perch fellowship; like Faust who gained some terrible knowledge, I alone was destined to remain, the only Englishman who understood the several chemical surveys, of wall-samples from the German WW2 labour-camps? Newspapers damned me, with no right of reply, old friends were too shocked to speak to me.
You may be tempted to say, well diesel gas isn’t really toxic and all it would have given them is a really bad headache’ – but don’t. You may be tempted to say, well death by carbon monoxide poisoning leaves bodies a cherry-red or pink colour, and whoever heard of accounts of red corpses in the German labour-camps?’ but don’t. It will de-focus the argument. Maybe just say, ‘well there is a four-hour video ‘one-third of the holocaust’ online which I’ve heard is very good’ and leave it at that.
Hold the focus, on the idea of challenge- rather than denial. If anyone believes that somewhere there exists a cyanide German gas-chamber, used for human extermination, all we have to do is sample the bricks and mortar, do the cyanide measurement. Its not hard. For anyone who wants more complicated detail on the whole issue, my thread ‘Cyanide chemistry at Auschwitz’ has had over 70,000 hits and can claim to be the definitive thread on the topic.
I think its so interesting that the huge Holo-museum in Lambeth (Imperial War Museum) does not actually ever say, that human cyanide gas chambers existed. It does so for the diesel gassing, but not for cyanide. It does actually show a can of Zyklon! And the notice beside it, quietly says that this was used for the delousing chamber. Thank you. QED.
You can’t hope to get through a debate without someone saying, what about the eyewitness testimony? They will probably allude to someone on a BBC show who has just recalled that he was at Auschwitz after 60 years, or published a book, etc. That moment of response is crucial. I suggest beginning with ‘the great Holocaust deniers of History’ eg Winston Churchill, with his 6 volumes on the war – no hint of gas chambers or gassing – likewise De Gaulle and Eisenhower, plus other war-generals who wrote memoirs - and even more to the point the International Red cross which visited Auschwitz regularly through the war, produced a several-volume report http://www.rense.com/general62/auch.htm – they never saw anything, or hinted at human gassings: yes they commented on the Zyklon delousing chambers, that’s all they saw. Then Pope Pius XII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII , who is widely attacked for not having done anything to ‘stop the Holocaust’ – in fact who was there who did testify to seeing them?
Once Hoss’s ‘confession’ at Nuremberg had appeared in 1946, stories started to appear resembling that; once it was evident that the Jews got Israel because of the Holo-story, the fictional floodgates were wide open; once Germany started paying reparations to anyone with a Holo-story, there was no stopping them. For these reasons the collection of ‘gassing’ stories collated by Cromwell 1942-5 http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconshr123.html i.e. during the war have to be the most important datum. Remember the BBC started to broadcast gassing stories in 1942, remember that Anne frank’s Diary has only one allusion to the gas chambers – when in 1942 she heard the BBC report them.
This is a story with a moral. The moral is as follows. Once upon a time, there was a wicked black magician, who had a terrible flying dragon, which breathed fire, and everyone lived in fear. ‘O, what shall we do’, the people asked each other? Eventually one recalled, that there was a white magician, and they decided to ask him. Hmm, he thought, then he said he could try pronouncing a counter-spell. So he did, and slowly the dragon started to grow smaller; it kept growing smaller, until it became just a little dog, and it wagged its tail. The white magician told the people, it always was merely a little dog, it only seemed to be a frightening fire-breathing dragon.
• David Cole’s Key Questions re Auschwitz - http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gc46-ORIGI.html - note how they begin with the chemical issue making it central, just as I do here – only difference, I give measured concentrations, he just alludes to the blue hue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gycNMf0xAc excellent new holo-video.
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2011/03/anthon ... so-stupid/
I think it's on youtube in multiple pieces. It's one of the better videos to come along in awhile.
Anthony Lawson does many good videos, he has a way with words.
As Kingfisher pointed out, the original was remived by Google over some technicality, someone claiming copyright.
Then, as Anthony Lawson related (to me plus a collague)
"This is almost unbelievable
An IDF soldier YouTube name: SuperProudjew has taken the trouble to download my video Holocaust, Hate Speech & Were the Germans so Stupid, break it into three parts, and re-upload them as:
Part 1 Holocaust, Hate Speech _ Were the Germans so Stupid_ (Anthon Lawson).wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apx0Tbii ... ure=relmfu
Part 2 Holocaust, Hate Speech _ Were the Germans so Stupid_ (Anthon Lawson).wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy-r9W8v ... ure=relmfu
Part 3 Holocaust, Hate Speech _ Were the Germans so Stupid_ (Anthon Lawson).wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hvFZPHx ... ideo_title
A thinking IDF soldier. Are we getting somewhere? He clearly is different.
Please see the what he has posted in the notes, below my sign off."
Instead of trying to answer the question, 'Are you denying the Holocaust?'
Try to rephrase it as,
'How was the Zyklon used?'
That way, we'll have a question that can be answered.
Here is 125 pages of debate about H-D that get absolutely nowhere:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php? ... 7&page=125
It just cycles endlessly around, beween the 'poor Jews' and the 'wicked Nazis',
producing no consensus or constructive discussion whatsoever.
Its supposed to be a Randi 'Sceptics' forum, but they have not understood what it is they need to be sceptical about.
Surely this tends to confirm, what I suggested as a primary definition, the enunciation of which would enable constructive debate to take place:
A HOLOCAUST DENIER IS A PERSON WHO UNDERSTANDS THAT LETHAL MASS HUMAN GAS CHAMBERS HAVE NEVER EXISTED - NOWHERE, NEVER.
Just a suggestion. There are two types of 'revisionist' material, in all subjects - the 'overview' type, and the 'detail' type. The posts on this site are full of immense detail. HOWEVER most people know little about this (or any) subject - so go for the overview. Pick your favourite piece - I'd suggest Did Six Million Really Die? - but any piece which describes the outline of the subject, and answers a lot of overview questions, will do. Make some attempt to memorize the outline of the argument; or perhaps just pick out 5 or 6 lines of thought that appeal to you. Then list these, note them, so you can rattle them off if you're with someone who seems potentially intelligent: "You may not realise A... and in fact B is also true... and by the way this fits in with C... and D is getting better known. And I seem to remember E is true." Worth a try, anyway.
PS - it's important to realize many, many postings are essentially fraudulent - they're deliberately put there by liars. Learn to discount them. It's surprising how many people out there slowly convert to a revisionist view.
astro3 wrote:Helpful Hints - Tip No. 4
Instead of trying to answer the question, 'Are you denying the Holocaust?'
Try to rephrase it as,
'How was the Zyklon used?'
That way, we'll have a question that can be answered.
When asked 'Are you denying the Holocaust?'
My first answer is "please define Holocaust, because several facts around WWII period could be called "holocaust" e.g. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Holodomor, the Gulags, so what is your definition for that word?".
Then, according with the definition, I challenge some claims like the "6 millions", the "extermination plan" , the "gas chambers" and so on, because simply no hard evidences were found to support those claims. Difficult to deny things that didn't even exist. Prove that things existed with scientific arguments, I won't deny them.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests