Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby HaaDeeCee » 8 years 7 months ago (Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:48 pm)

To the question: "Are you a holocaust denier?" a powerful reply might be formulated as follows.

"Your question (in quotes above) is of the genre "When did you stop beating your wife".

To which I ask that you supply forensic, scientific, or court-certified documentary evidence. You do that and I will answer your question.

As to the question: "What about those x-thousands of eye witnesses?" Reply: Any decent court would thoroughly question the testimony of any witness that personally profitted from the outcome of the court case. All pro-holocaust witnesses expect free other peoples money to feather their nest.

Leave it at that unless more probing questions are asked.

We all know that one thing the tales from the holocaust cannot withstand are probing questions; that is why this is illegal in so many "free" western countries.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Hannover » 8 years 7 months ago (Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:40 pm)

HaaDeeCee said:
As to the question: "What about those x-thousands of eye witnesses?"

That's always my favorite, I tell them:

'Then you believe in witchcraft because there are many, many more"'eyewitness testimonies" and "confessions" for witchcraft than there is for the so called 'holocaust'. Witchcraft was said to have been a 'proven fact' by the court systems.

Follow ups could be:

Of course, all the alleged "eyewitnesses" and so called "survivors" are proof that the 'holocaust' storyline is a lie. The storyline states that the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could their hands on.

Oh really? Then please show me the excavations of the alleged human remains & mass graves. Actual, verifiable excavations, with verifiable photos, remains in situ. Not mere claims of remains with embarrassingly fraudulent silly drawings. A reference to a proper excavation would the German excavations of the Polish officers murdered by the Soviet communists in the Katyn forest region, for decades pinned on the 'Nazis' but now known to have been just another mass murder by the communists.

And then if they arrogantly persist:

I challenge them to debate their received history at this forum, informing them that there is no name calling, dodging, or subject changing. Think you know what you're talking about? Then show me.

Never act defensively, be assertive. Revisionists have it easy, we only have to tell the truth.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Cloud » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:41 am)

To the question: "Are you a holocaust denier?"


No, I simply lack belief. It is much like an atheist who lacks belief in supernatural beings. The latter often says that "everyone is born an atheist." Well, aren't we all born nonbelievers of the Holocaust, as well? So what exactly led to your conversion, and is there anything I can do to help you see the light?
Last edited by Cloud on Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby HaaDeeCee » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:14 am)

The retort to various queries has, of course, to be tailored to the situation and the intellectual sophistication of the opponent.

I found that talking about the jailing in European countries of those that seriously question the tales from the holocaust, including their defense lawyers, does certainly give pause to even the most "convinced" holocaustlers. North Americans definitely have a difficult time wrapping their minds around this issue.

For the assertion "What about the X-thousands of eye witnesses" a more snappy retort might be:

If these were eye witnesses how come that NONE of them could describe, with any accuracy or consistency, what the gassed bodies looked like. For example, do YOU know, through reading these testimonies, what the colour of these bodies was?????

I like Hanover's invitation to debate on CODOH. I will make a point of this including the admonition regarding name calling, changing of topic, and avoiding to answer.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:43 pm)

Cloud wrote:
To the question: "Are you a holocaust denier?"


No, I simply lack belief. It is much like an atheist who lacks belief in supernatural beimgs. The latter often says that "everyone is born an atheist." Well, aren't we all born nonbelievers of the Holocaust, as well?

An excellent point, Cloud. All too often, and not only as regards the Holocaust, "I don't believe in..." is interpreted as "I disbelieve...". I am an atheist, but I'm not an ardent believer in No-God. I just haven't seen any convincing evidence for what to me seems unlikely.

Likewise with the Holocaust: I see plenty of evidence that people were deported, imprisoned, confined in ghettos or shot; I see plenty of evidence of the brutalities of war, and that Jews were specifically targetted; I see that many died of disease, maltreatment (by their peers as well as the Germans) and exposure; I see that the Jewish population of Eastern Europe was greatly reduced (though I also see that enough remained to largely rule Poland and Hungary for a decade); I see revenge pogroms by Soviet minority nations. The East European Jews certainly suffered a catastrophe comparable to the "Naqba", (though they had a safe haven that the Palestinians did not). I see similar levels of suffering experienced by others in WW2 largely glossed over, particularly where the perpetrators were the Allies.

What I don't see is evidence for a policy of extermination, gas chambers, or any reason to accept the Six Million figure on someone's say-so. I don't believe in the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean I believe in No-Holocaust. It isn't a matter of belief; show me the evidence and I'm open to it. But the default position on any belief has to be a provisional lack of belief (as opposed to disbelief). That is genuine Scepticism.

Neither do I see strong evidence for a massive conspiracy or hoax, but rather for a mixture of rumour and propaganda, conveniently "confirmed" by the conditions in the camps in 1945. The Allies, for the most part, finished up believing their own propaganda, because it was impossible to admit in the aftermath of war, when a justification for all the horrors was needed, that it was just that: propaganda. Thus was born the myth of the Good War against Evil, which survives to this day: the only "good" war in history.

You say that we are all born atheists. True, but that is remedied early in life for most people who are fed the answer before they even understand the question. It's the same with the Holocaust.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby mincuo » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:05 pm)

First of all sry for my poor English, Kingfisher, it's my fault.
There is a big difference between an atheist and a holocaust denier. You say about God: "I just haven't seen any convincing evidence for what to me seems unlikely" But God in theology isn't a matter of proof but of faith. God is for a believer out of the rational, logic questions, just because God is supranatural, that is to say the normal logic scientific arguments or instruments cannot fit with God. Those who try to explain God in scientific, historic terms are very poor in theology. Likewise, if Holocaust was explained only in symbolic terms, there is no problems. The difference is that Holocaust is pretended to be scientific. The ruine of official history is just because has to be scientific and cannot. When i'm asked about the matter I say: please get out Revisionists, now you haven't any denier. You are happy. No denieres around. Only official history. Now take a look how many things are hidden to you, please remember, I'm showing official history photos: hospitals, brothels, shops, money of the camps, a swimming-pool, a family-camp, the church, the library and so on. I'm showing the immense industrial district surrounding.... This is the I.G.Farben, do you see? Those are photo taken from the Durrfeld files, do you see? And so on. Well now please answer me. Those are real, you see, but those don't mean necessarily that there wasn't the extermination, i.e. those are real but there was the extermination. So why didn'you never see? If there were so many convincing proofs of extermination why hiding all that? Then you say "but there are all the witnesses" Yes. please give me a name please, do you know one name? Don't tell me Anna Frank and Primo Levi, they weren't witnesses, they wrote books. Please give me a name, I know the witnesses, so we can discuss about what they said. Normally they cannot give a name. That is important because they base all on the witnesses and suddenly they realize they aren't able to give one name, and what the witness said. A small step from unconscious to conscious.
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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby The Warden » 8 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:39 pm)

A lot of you seem to spend a lot of time worrying about what you're being labeled or will be labeled once you present the information you've taken the time to absorb. Personally, I can'[t be bothered with caring about such things anymore with all the labels being thrown around these days. I don't walk around with a T-shirt that says "Ask me about Holocaust denial" or anything, but I prefer to let the facts speak for themselves. I also don't go around looking for anyone that will listen to what I have to say. If the topic comes up, I present what made me continue looking into the subject. The thing to remember is the standard story isn't backed up by physical evidence, only more stories. You'll generally have a limited window to present anything, so it's important to get the crucial information in first. Hit hard, hit fast. What they do with it from there isn't your concern. Will they label you? Yes. Does it matter? No. Does it change the fact that your information still stands firm? No.

Keeping emotion out of your side is important, but more importantly is keeping their emotion limited by remaining calm and not raising your voice. People will generally react with a lower caliber technique when presented with something they disagree with. It's just what they do when backed into a corner or feel threatened. They react instead of respond.

One more thing: Know when to get out. You can't control other people, and pushing them beyond their comfort zone will only make them lash out. Picking your battles is probably the best advice I can give from my experience. If the horse isn't thirsty, it isn't going to drink.
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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby mincuo » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:16 am)

Well Warden I agree about what you write. But let me explain. The problem is communication, the way to communicate. Revisionists assume that people already knows a lot of thing in the right way. They think that they have only to explain or correct some facts, or some evidences, and "voilà". But it doesn't work very well. Simply the alphabet, the syntax, the vocabulary, the grammar, the language is different. People got a heavy indoctrination. All the paradigms, not only Shoah, but everything surrounding is distorted. Let me say that is not new, and not only for Shoah.
The Emperor Nero was the very ancient Hitler, the ancient Satan. (Very much of the Hitler demonization was perfectly copied from the antique Nero demonization propaganda. Fire, flames, extermination, madman, a bit artist, cruel, paranoic, etc...). You know that Nero burned Rome, he murdered ten of thousands of Christians, burned them alive, crucificied them, or teared them to pieces by the lions in the Circus, while he was playing the lyra and singing. All that is a bunch of lies, but the books afterwards were written by historians who were just Christians or the Aristocratic class, strongly enemy of Nero. Among others, Nero made expecially 2 great reforms. One was a monetary reform, the other was a fiscal reform. Both were for the people and against the aristocratic class. Expecially the latter, because Nero took them a great part of their privilege to collect taxes, give permits, concessions, contracts and so on. (Only to understand the importance two small examples: one commercial ship contained at that time up to 10.000 tons to say of wine, grain, oil... The permit to import and deal given by the Aristocratic bureaucracy to a trader gave them some 25% of the earnings. Another example. Roman people didn't live in the beautiful houses (domus) you have read in the school books. Only 1400 or 1500 owners with their families and slaves lived there. Roman citizens were 1,200,000-1,600,000 and they lived (paying a rent, not as owners) in the "insulae" i.e. six, eight, and often ten-storey-houses, or even 14 storey-houses, like the "Insula felicles". There was an immense speculation at that time. You can understand the value of the building permits given by the Aristocratics). Even when there was the famous fire in Rome, Nero taxed them and made a requisition of 1/5 of their grain to help the population, the fixed strict rules for the new buildings and so on. You can understand how many enemies he had. After his death (64 A.D.) the demonization began. Every book speaking even a bit objectively was removed. But notwithstanding the heavy propaganda the Romans continued to preserve some memory. For more than 1000 years every 9 June, the day of the death of Nero, a great mass of people brought flowers on the (presumed) Nero mausoleum, ending only when the Pope Pasquale ordered in 1100 A.D. to destroy the grave and to build a chapel, (that subsequently become a famous Church in Rome: "Santa Maria del Popolo"). Every text-book, every newspaper, and then every film or every TV "historic" documentary, and everything in culture was distorted. And not because the true was unknown. The true was known. For the Shoah the story is even worse, because the story is linked with the uncounscious, because the media are quite heavier, because the films, the fiction, the survivors stories are so recent, and because people was scientifically stripped of the capacity of reasoning and trained to images and emotions. So, to conclude, it is not simply a matter of illustrating some facts, it is a matter of values inculcated through emotions and watchwords, and moreover of a different grammar between you and your listener. Your grammar is logic, his grammar is emotions and faith. If you don't try to throw a bridge and approach his grammar, I think you are wasting your time. Sry for my usual bad English.
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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby astro3 » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:33 am)

Hey Mincuo, that’s really good (about Nero) – you should write a book.

But I especially appreciate Kingfisher’s marvellous words of wisdom, allow me to repeat them:
Likewise with the Holocaust: I see plenty of evidence that people were deported, imprisoned, confined in ghettos or shot; I see plenty of evidence of the brutalities of war, and that Jews were specifically targetted; I see that many died of disease, maltreatment (by their peers as well as the Germans) and exposure; I see that the Jewish population of Eastern Europe was greatly reduced (though I also see that enough remained to largely rule Poland and Hungary for a decade); I see revenge pogroms by Soviet minority nations. The East European Jews certainly suffered a catastrophe comparable to the "Naqba", (though they had a safe haven that the Palestinians did not). I see similar levels of suffering experienced by others in WW2 largely glossed over, particularly where the perpetrators were the Allies.

What I don't see is evidence for a policy of extermination, gas chambers, or any reason to accept the Six Million figure on someone's say-so. I don't believe in the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean I believe in No-Holocaust. It isn't a matter of belief; show me the evidence and I'm open to it. But the default position on any belief has to be a provisional lack of belief (as opposed to disbelief). That is genuine Scepticism.

Neither do I see strong evidence for a massive conspiracy or hoax, but rather for a mixture of rumour and propaganda, conveniently "confirmed" by the conditions in the camps in 1945. The Allies, for the most part, finished up believing their own propaganda, because it was impossible to admit in the aftermath of war, when a justification for all the horrors was needed, that it was just that: propaganda. Thus was born the myth of the Good War against Evil, which survives to this day: the only "good" war in history.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:30 pm)

Mincuo

Absolutely no reason at all to apologise for your English. It's fine and the odd error doesn't detract from understanding. It knocks my Italian into a cocked hat. My French even, and that I'm fairly fluent in.

Your account of Nero is very interesting. I knew vaguely something like this but without any details. Indeed the whole of history is stories that someone would like you to believe. Just look at Spanish and English versions of the Armada and the "privateers", for example. For years French and British history sought to justify their Empires, and French and American history today both justify their Republics with the story of a "Revolution" which is largely mythology.

If I might make a suggestion, though, break what you write up into paragraphs and it will be much easier for your reader.

Edited for punctuation
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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby SevenUp » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:53 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:Neither do I see strong evidence for a massive conspiracy or hoax,


OK, I'll show you direct evidence of an ongoing massive and well-coordinated and ongoing conspiracy, here is a picture on the USHMM web site with the caption

A soldier from the U.S. 7th Army examines the door to a gas chamber in the Dachau concentration camp. [Photograph #61985]

Image

World Jewry has waged a massive and relentless campaign during and since WW II to convince the world that a pack of degenerate and absurd lies are true. You can read all about it in 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' by Arthur Butz published in 1976 ! The evidence is everywhere, the USHMM itself is literally concrete evidence. Every word out of Elie Wiesel's mouth, and out of the mouths of hundreds of other lying survivors and phony academics is direct evidence. Every absurd Hollywood movie and AP news report about the woes of the survivors is direct evidence. Every Jew, save one, is a participant.

Save one ! ??? From Smith's report #184 - Paul Eisen - My Life as a Holocaust Denier, see also ... The Holocaust Wars, an extraordinary article by Eisen, at

http://www.righteousjews.org/article18.html

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby SevenUp » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:02 pm)

mincuo wrote:Well Warden I agree about what you write. But let me explain. The problem is communication, the way to communicate. Revisionists assume that people already knows a lot of thing in the right way. They think that they have only to explain or correct some facts, or some evidences, and "voilà". But it doesn't work very well. Simply the alphabet, the syntax, the vocabulary, the grammar, the language is different. People got a heavy indoctrination. All the paradigms, not only Shoah, but everything surrounding is distorted. Let me say that is not new, and not only for Shoah.
The Emperor Nero was the very ancient Hitler, the ancient Satan. (Very much of the Hitler demonization was perfectly copied from the antique Nero demonization propaganda. Fire, flames, extermination, madman, a bit artist, cruel, paranoic, etc...). You know that Nero burned Rome, he murdered ten of thousands of Christians, burned them alive, crucificied them, or teared them to pieces by the lions in the Circus, while he was playing the lyra and singing. All that is a bunch of lies, but the books afterwards were written by historians who were just Christians or the Aristocratic class, strongly enemy of Nero. Among others, Nero made expecially 2 great reforms. One was a monetary reform, the other was a fiscal reform. Both were for the people and against the aristocratic class. Expecially the latter, because Nero took them a great part of their privilege to collect taxes, give permits, concessions, contracts and so on. (Only to understand the importance two small examples: one commercial ship contained at that time up to 10.000 tons to say of wine, grain, oil... The permit to import and deal given by the Aristocratic bureaucracy to a trader gave them some 25% of the earnings. Another example. Roman people didn't live in the beautiful houses (domus) you have read in the school books. Only 1400 or 1500 owners with their families and slaves lived there. Roman citizens were 1,200,000-1,600,000 and they lived (paying a rent, not as owners) in the "insulae" i.e. six, eight, and often ten-storey-houses, or even 14 storey-houses, like the "Insula felicles". There was an immense speculation at that time. You can understand the value of the building permits given by the Aristocratics). Even when there was the famous fire in Rome, Nero taxed them and made a requisition of 1/5 of their grain to help the population, the fixed strict rules for the new buildings and so on. You can understand how many enemies he had. After his death (64 A.D.) the demonization began. Every book speaking even a bit objectively was removed. But notwithstanding the heavy propaganda the Romans continued to preserve some memory. For more than 1000 years every 9 June, the day of the death of Nero, a great mass of people brought flowers on the (presumed) Nero mausoleum, ending only when the Pope Pasquale ordered in 1100 A.D. to destroy the grave and to build a chapel, (that subsequently become a famous Church in Rome: "Santa Maria del Popolo"). Every text-book, every newspaper, and then every film or every TV "historic" documentary, and everything in culture was distorted. And not because the true was unknown. The true was known. For the Shoah the story is even worse, because the story is linked with the uncounscious, because the media are quite heavier, because the films, the fiction, the survivors stories are so recent, and because people was scientifically stripped of the capacity of reasoning and trained to images and emotions. So, to conclude, it is not simply a matter of illustrating some facts, it is a matter of values inculcated through emotions and watchwords, and moreover of a different grammar between you and your listener. Your grammar is logic, his grammar is emotions and faith. If you don't try to throw a bridge and approach his grammar, I think you are wasting your time. Sry for my usual bad English.


Great post.

If you don't try to throw a bridge and approach his grammar, I think you are wasting your time.

OK, how do you propose to approach the naive believer's grammar?

It seems to me that they typically know almost nothing explicitly, but they believe the hoax implicitly and with absolute certainty, or do they? What they know or don't know is not the real problem, convincing them is not the problem, the real problem it seems to me is to getting them to discuss the issue more than one minute. The immediate objective of most persons, it seems to me, is to get off the subject as quickly as possible.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:29 am)

SevenUp

The Dachau gas chamber is evidence of propaganda, not conspiracy. It could even have been shown initially in good faith, though I doubt it. That Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, etc. were exploited by Sykewar is not disputed.

Of course I've read Butz. Twice all the way through, as well as dipping in on other occasions. He uses the word "Hoax" in his title, but infrequently in the text. Some other Revisionist scholars specifically reject it. It doesn't necessarily imply acceptance of a conspiracy. Propaganda is a hoax.

Referring to "lying survivors and phony academics" is simply invective and proves nothing. There are many reasons people don't tell the truth. Outright lying is one, erroneous recollection, false memory syndrome and peer pressure are others. There is a lot of material in the psychology literature on this. I quite like The Invisible Gorilla. As to whether and how many of the promoters of the Holocaust believe what they are promoting, well, why wouldn't most of them, since the rest of the world does and in general we all believe what confirms our existing prejudices? But we've been through all this in another thread. You see the world in black and white where I prefer shades of grey. That's not going to change.

The immediate objective of most persons, it seems to me, is to get off the subject as quickly as possible.

There, I think you have hit a nail on the head. The same might be true on a multitude of topics where the person feels they don't have the knowledge to dispute, but is convinced you are not right. I could imagine myself faced with a believer in astrology who knew the subject inside out. I wouldn't be interested in hearing about it because their superior command of the subject matter would not suffice to make me think this belief credible, and I would be quite sure that nothing I could say would change their view.

I'm never in this situation on the Holocaust. because no one outside my family knows of my Revisionist views. But the only situation in which I'd expect to make any progress is with someone with sufficient curiosity to want to know my reasons for holding a view which to them seems extraordinary. It would need me to make quite clear that I was not expecting to convince them.

Announcing up front that the Holocaust was a hoax is a surefire way ensure that they do "get off the subject as quickly as possible". I like suggestions earlier in the thread that the first step should be to show the enormous "revisions" that have already been made by orthodox scholars.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to Deny the Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:32 am)

Cloud wrote:...
But the retort you often get is "they couldn't be autopsied because they were cremated."

Which demonstrates that the Holocaust is just another "conspiracy theory" :bootyshake: .

Despite the excuses, the absense of real evidence is all that a "Holocaust denier" needs to demonstrate.

Cloud wrote:
To the question: "Are you a holocaust denier?"


No, I simply lack belief. It is much like an atheist who lacks belief in supernatural beings. The latter often says that "everyone is born an atheist." Well, aren't we all born nonbelievers of the Holocaust, as well? So what exactly led to your conversion, and is there anything I can do to help you see the light?

I think that demonstrates how work is done with words and semantics.
Just lacking belief would only make you an agnostic. A real atheist positively believes that there is no God. Atheists not necessarily lack belief in the supernatural. One can believe in the existence of non-physical entities and still be an atheist. The claim that "everyone is born an atheist" is somewhat questionable, since we don't know what everyone did initially belief. However as with most mentefacts or "knowledge" you first have to learn about it, before you can know about. So the default position would be agnostic towards the Holocaust.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby rerevisionist » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:10 am)

Referring to "lying survivors and phony academics" is simply invective and proves nothing. There are many reasons people don't tell the truth. Outright lying is one, erroneous recollection, false memory syndrome and peer pressure are others.


With respect, Kingfisher, it's not simple invective; it's a position statement, making the speaker's views unambigous and clear. It's true that people lie for many reasons - but their statements remain lies, nonetheless. However, of course, talking of phony academics etc doesn't prove anything - the proof lies in other things the speaker says, if he's making his case well.


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