Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

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Kingfisher
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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:49 am)

It's a matter of definition, Hektor. We use the labels "agnostic" and "atheist" to cover a range of views. I'm an atheist in the Jonathan Miller sense: Miller said he felt no more need to define himself as an atheist than as an ahexist (witches). Lack of belief differs both from disbelief and from doubt (the agnostic position). The Industry has succeeded in promoting a state of affairs where the default position, which should be lack of belief (i.e. the onus of proof is on those asserting a belief) to one where the belief is accepted by default and those who challenge it are "deniers". A privileged position Christianity used to enjoy, and which Islam still does in its heartlands.

I was a Holocaust agnostic for years. I had major doubts about many aspects of the mainstream story, but (thanks to Irving) I thought there might be something in the Reinhard camps. Now I am unconvinced about those too.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby SevenUp » 8 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:31 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:The Dachau gas chamber is evidence of propaganda, not conspiracy. It could even have been shown initially in good faith, though I doubt it. That Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, etc. were exploited by Sykewar is not disputed.


Are you purposefully misunderstanding the point? The picture of the gas chamber door shown above, with the caption, is being shown on the USHMM web site RIGHT NOW ! It is not being shown in 'good faith'. Is is a blatant lie, and it is part of a multimillion dollar monument to the holocaust hoax that is nothing but blatant lies. Who's involved in displaying this lie? The USHMM museum which displays the photo, the US govt which funds the exhibit, the congresspersons who voted for the funds, and the media which does not expose the lie, this includes every major media organization in the US, print and electronic. For that picture to be displayed RIGHT NOW all of these organizations have to be complicit. It is a conspiracy, the evidence is all around you.

Kingfisher wrote:I'm never in this situation on the Holocaust. because no one outside my family knows of my Revisionist views.


LOL ! Then why in hell do you think you're an authority on how to challenge the hoax?

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:14 am)

rerevisionist wrote: It's true that people lie for many reasons - but their statements remain lies, nonetheless.


Well, no. They aren't lies if they are not deliberately untrue.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:32 am)

SevenUp wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:The Dachau gas chamber is evidence of propaganda, not conspiracy. It could even have been shown initially in good faith, though I doubt it. That Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, etc. were exploited by Sykewar is not disputed.


Are you purposefully misunderstanding the point? The picture of the gas chamber door shown above, with the caption, is being shown on the USHMM web site RIGHT NOW !

Kingfisher wrote:I'm never in this situation on the Holocaust. because no one outside my family knows of my Revisionist views.


LOL ! Then why in hell do you think you're an authority on how to challenge the hoax?


1. Please lay off the aggressivity.

2. Not purposefully. You never said it was on that site. Yes, I agree that any use of that pic today is deliberate misrepresentation, unless the person who posted it is poorly informed, in which case others should have picked it up and corrected it. But the USHMM is propaganda, as we know. Propagandists will use detail they know to be dubious in support of a broader "truth". "Lying" is an accurate description of that all too common behaviour.

And I said it probably was consciously false in 1945-6 too. Maybe not in the first instance, but they must have found out pretty quick. It didn't stop them presenting the Dachau gas chamber at Nuremberg.

But, in any case, screaming "liars" is not going to make you many converts. If you genuinely aim to influence people, you need a somewhat more reasoned and subtle approach. As I have commented before, it was precisely the other side's refusal to address Revisionists, simply dismissing them as "liars" that caused me to suspect their case in the first place.

3. Never made any such claim.

I've answered your points and that's it. I'm not getting into personal squabbles, much as they seem to appeal to you.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby SevenUp » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:33 am)

Kingfisher wrote:
1. Please lay off the aggressivity.

2. Not purposefully. You never said it was on that site. Yes, I agree that any use of that pic today is deliberate misrepresentation, unless the person who posted it is poorly informed, in which case others should have picked it up and corrected it. But the USHMM is propaganda, as we know. Propagandists will use detail they know to be dubious in support of a broader "truth". "Lying" is an accurate description of that all too common behaviour.

And I said it probably was consciously false in 1945-6 too. Maybe not in the first instance, but they must have found out pretty quick. It didn't stop them presenting the Dachau gas chamber at Nuremberg.

But, in any case, screaming "liars" is not going to make you many converts. If you genuinely aim to influence people, you need a somewhat more reasoned and subtle approach. As I have commented before, it was precisely the other side's refusal to address Revisionists, simply dismissing them as "liars" that caused me to suspect their case in the first place.

3. Never made any such claim.

I've answered your points and that's it. I'm not getting into personal squabbles, much as they seem to appeal to you.


1. ?

2. This is the line before the picture in my post .... "here is a picture on the USHMM web site with the caption"

So, your error was purposeful, or you have developed the ability not to see what conflicts with your expectations. In any case, the point of my post was that there is a massive ongoing deliberate hoax and the picture on the USHMM site is direct evidence of that. That was the point, which you still do not seem able to allow into your consciousness.

3. You've posted the same opinion 100 times, contradicting people who have actually engaged others. I think you should always add a disclaimer, something to the effect ... "This is my opinion only, completely untested as I've never discussed the holocaust with anyone outside my family."

You have not answered my point at all - here is your chance, is the picture on the USHMM site* direct evidence of a massive ongoing hoax involving the USHMM that posted the pic, the US govt. that funds the USHMM, the US congress that appropriates the funds, and the major media, print and electronic, that does not challenge the picture?

* I don't link to the USHMM site as they move their links around. You can google the pic on their site with the caption.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby rerevisionist » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:59 am)

Postby Kingfisher » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:14 am
rerevisionist wrote: It's true that people lie for many reasons - but their statements remain lies, nonetheless.

Well, no. They aren't lies if they are not deliberately untrue.


Well, yes, they are. A false statement is a lie. 'Kingfisher' goes to great lengths not to blame people, and to excuse people who make statements without checking them; he's saying if their intent was not deliberate, they can't lie. In fact, of course, their false statements are lies whether intended or not. In any case it's very difficult to assess states of mind - who knows how dishonest Holohoax promoters are? 'Kingfisher' talks of 'screaming' that people are liars, revealing the same attitude. I can't help feeling 'Kingfisher' is one of these people - Catholic? - who has been trained to think of 'lies' as something terrible, and who as a result has to rig up escape clauses.

I was amused by the previous reply, that 'Kingfisher' appears to have never even attempted to talk to people about the subject.

I don't know if psychology is advanced enough to be able to classify people, to propose different approaches to maximise the 'conversion' rate away from the Holohoax, from a belief level of .99 to, say, .1; if not, we're all being imprecise here.

Based on my own experience, at the factual level, I recommend an overview such as Did Six Million Really Die? - it's brief, and it deals with all the commonly made arguments. Tell them how to Google it, tell them it's been around for years, and tell them it's not a terrifying read.

Readers here should bear in mind their own history: at one time, almost all of them must have believed; try to remember the steps of your liberation. If it worked for you, it can work for others.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:22 am)

Sorry, SevenUp. You did reference the USHMM. When I was looking at the picture, it was off my screen. I only saw what was below it. My mistake.

We don't disagree about the present misuse of it. I do find it unlikely though, that the current Holocaust Industry share the Revisionist view of the facts, when no one else in the world does. As propagandists, they don't examine the facts. They just propagate their own version of them. Just as people who propagate a religion are generally Believers.

My Revisionist advocacy is limited to the Web, partly because I don't move among people who routinely discuss the Holocaust and partly for personal security. You know that there are good reasons why many Revisionists prefer anonymity, especially, but not only, in Europe. A poster on this forum lost his university post when his Revisionist views became known. Irving was prosecuted in France for statements made in London. You use a pseudonym here yourself. I have made a personal contribution in translating some of Carlo Mattogno's material, and done a little editing of Wikipedia.

Once more, please stop the personal stuff, which is against the rules of this forum.
Last edited by Kingfisher on Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:30 am)

Rerevisionist.

Meanings of words are not always precise, but if you google for dictionary definitions of "lie", most of them include intent to mislead.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:24 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:It's a matter of definition, Hektor. We use the labels "agnostic" and "atheist" to cover a range of views. I'm an atheist in the Jonathan Miller sense: Miller said he felt no more need to define himself as an atheist than as an ahexist (witches). Lack of belief differs both from disbelief and from doubt (the agnostic position).
The terms are often used close to interchangeable, which they strictly spoken aren't. agnostic = doesn't know, or thinks one can not know. atheist = thinks he knows there is no god. What I found is that many atheists back off, when you nail them with the later definition. But the way they argue otherwise is actually the position that they think they've proven there is no god. Anyway, the loose application of terms is also done with "the Holocaust". The Caustians fit all kind of things supposedly done to the jews under the umbrella term "Holocaust" anything from mentioning Jews in laws to gassing six million from them. If you then dispute or doubt the the gassing part, you'll be treated as if you "deny" the whole package deal. And they think that if they prove part of the package deal, they've proven the whole. Of course virtually no revisionist "denies" Jews being mentioned in German law under Hitler or that they've been put in camps.

Kingfisher wrote:The Industry has succeeded in promoting a state of affairs where the default position, which should be lack of belief (i.e. the onus of proof is on those asserting a belief) to one where the belief is accepted by default and those who challenge it are "deniers". A privileged position Christianity used to enjoy, and which Islam still does in its heartlands.
That's an interesting point. In terms of religion I don't think there can be something like a default position, since religion ultimately rests upon personal revelation and a mystical knowledge source. A holocaust however would have to rely on empirical evidence. And before one can honestly belief one would have to verify and validate that empirical evidence. That's if you don't want to rely blindly on the "experts".
Kingfisher wrote:I was a Holocaust agnostic for years. I had major doubts about many aspects of the mainstream story, but (thanks to Irving) I thought there might be something in the Reinhard camps. Now I am unconvinced about those too.
I'd be an agnostic only in the sense that I am open to evidence. But I really doubt that after more then 60 years and given the attention that subject did enjoy that we can really except some new, sound and convincing evidence to appear.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Cloud » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:18 pm)

A poster on this forum lost his university post when his Revisionist views became known.

Who is this person, and what is his handle here?

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:59 pm)

Cloud wrote:
A poster on this forum lost his university post when his Revisionist views became known.

Who is this person, and what is his handle here?


I'll PM you, Cloud. I don't think it would be right to mention it here without his agreement. However, if I can find a link where he mentions it himself, then I will.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 7 months ago (Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:24 am)

rerevisionist wrote:Readers here should bear in mind their own history: at one time, almost all of them must have believed; try to remember the steps of your liberation. If it worked for you, it can work for others.

Strongly agree.

I was put off Revisionism by strident un-nuanced posters blaming everything on Jewish conspiracy and calling their opponents liars.
Conversely, I was encouraged to look at Revisionism when I saw Lipstadt et al dismissing them as "liars" without presenting any counter-arguments. Harwood first made me think there was a case to answer. Rudolf, Graf and Denierbud largely convinced me. Especially Denierbud's Buchenwald, which gives a persuasive explanation of how the story took off.

Edited to correct a wrong name.
Last edited by Kingfisher on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 8 years 7 months ago (Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:34 am)

I think with the pervasiveness the Holocaust narrative in the cultural field one can assume that all more or less did initially believe the narrative to be true.
Kingfisher wrote:...I was put off Revisionism by strident un-nuanced posters blaming everything on Jewish conspiracy and calling their opponents liars.
Conversely, I was encouraged to look at Revisionism when I saw Lipschitz et al dismissing them as "liars" without presenting any counter-arguments. Harwood first made me think there was a case to answer. Rudolf, Graf and Denierbud largely convinced me. Especially Denierbud's Buchenwald, which gives a persuasive explanation of how the story took off.

And one finds that here should anyone be asking:
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/buchenwald/ or as one download here:
http://www.archive.org/details/Buchenwald
Actually I pointed a couple of people to that and other videos recently. They also said, they'd go and share it with others. I wonder, if the Unisa history department would like to take a look at it.

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby astro3 » 8 years 7 months ago (Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:37 pm)

A poster on this forum lost his university post when his Revisionist views became known.

Sure, that was me, chucked out of UCL (University College London) where I took my PhD and had been a member of staff for 11 years, in April 2008
(as a science historian) - they didn't as such say what it was for,
but as I was being universally vilified and ethically-damned, I sort of gathered it was for 'denying the Holocaust.'

But, as I was saying, I did finally manage to introduce the topic into a normal conversation a few days ago: the H-topic came up, over lunch, amongst a group of politically-aware people, and I said: 'A Holocaust-denier is basically a person who understands how hygiene technology was used in the German labour-camps of WW2' - and then went on to comment about how the Zyklon insecticide had been used, and the absence of evidence for its having been 'diverted.' It worked! The conversation flowed on, without any apocalyptic break-up ..

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Re: Helpful Hints on how to 'Deny' the Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 8 years 7 months ago (Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:58 am)

astro3 wrote:
A poster on this forum lost his university post when his Revisionist views became known.

Sure, that was me, chucked out of UCL (University College London) where I took my PhD and had been a member of staff for 11 years, in April 2008
(as a science historian) - they didn't as such say what it was for,
but as I was being universally vilified and ethically-damned, I sort of gathered it was for 'denying the Holocaust.'

No admission it was for the Holo, but what was there official reason/process. Just no extension of contract, cancelation or getting fired?
astro3 wrote:But, as I was saying, I did finally manage to introduce the topic into a normal conversation a few days ago: the H-topic came up, over lunch, amongst a group of politically-aware people, and I said: 'A Holocaust-denier is basically a person who understands how hygiene technology was used in the German labour-camps of WW2' - and then went on to comment about how the Zyklon insecticide had been used, and the absence of evidence for its having been 'diverted.' It worked! The conversation flowed on, without any apocalyptic break-up ..

Do you think the lack of tantrums got something to do with Britain changing, like the recent event of looting London and how British people did experience it?


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