Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

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Bradley
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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Bradley » 9 years 4 months ago (Sat May 22, 2010 9:28 pm)

I've been behind the curve here. I think the idea being presented is worth working with. I'm going to be out of the picture until Monday afternoon. Then maybe I will have something useful to say, or some kind of useful question to ask.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 23, 2010 10:15 am)

Bradley wrote:I've been behind the curve here. I think the idea being presented is worth working with. I'm going to be out of the picture until Monday afternoon. Then maybe I will have something useful to say, or some kind of useful question to ask.

:cheers: Yea, Bradley.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 23, 2010 10:40 am)

Lamprecht wrote:How would you know if it was authentic?


Someone could have a picture of Wiesel that only have and easily photoshop a tattoo onto him. Hell, I could do that in a few minutes and it would be very difficult to tell if it was faked.

Convince him to cooperate? I think this is impossible -- why would he cooperate with the "Evil antisemitic deniers" at all?


To be authentic, it could have to be a recent picture (2010) with Elie's old, wrinkled face showing. Elie hasn't appeared anywhere without a suit coat on in many a moon, has he? So where is someone going to find a picture of his bare arm and photoshop a number on it?
Also, we know how the numbers looked and where they went. This is not as easy as you make out.

It's possible there would be some of these fakes sent in and that would bring attention to the debate. Some are bound to be obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like you sent in a really obvious photoshop picture just for the fun of it. :lol: (I'm sorry, I just can't get over how much fun this will be.)

I REPEAT that I don't expect Wiesel to "cooperate." All he's going to do is hide out. What can the man say? It is more likely there will be NO offerings at all, as Greg Gerdes has experienced. So you are worrying about the wrong thing. The only thing to really be concerned with is how to break through the "taboo" to get it to the public consciousness.

That's not to say it doesn't require well-thought out rules and conditions. Who should the judges be? Any known names on the other side will refuse to do it, and couldn't be trusted, so we need respected names who are relatively neutral. Time to start thinking in constructive ways.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Lamprecht » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun May 23, 2010 8:05 pm)

Couldn't he easily get an authentic-looking tattoo if it really gets public?
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
-- Herbert Spencer

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Drew J » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 2:04 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Couldn't he easily get an authentic-looking tattoo if it really gets public?

That is some concern. But the thing is, it has taken years and no one has seen it. Plus we have used old footage, analyzed all the angels and found no tattoo. Plus we have the work of Milkos Grunner who has exposed Elie as an imposter. Let us not also forget that recent article in the British press about the lies and exaggerations of Simon Wiesenthal. Slowly, slowly, more truth is leaking out. I say not to worry.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Hans » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 9:18 am)

Could he have removed the tattoo? A concentration camp tattoo is not exactly a stylish piece of fashion.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 9:46 am)

Hans wrote:Could he have removed the tattoo? A concentration camp tattoo is not exactly a stylish piece of fashion.


Hans,
You need to read all the threads on Elie Wiesel here and keep up to date. He was quoted in the Dayton Daily News on March 26, 2010 as answering a student's question:

The Nobel Laureate has written 50 books including his most famous, “Night,” a recounting of his experiences in Auschwitz and Buchenwald. One student wondered if Wiesel still has his concentration camp number and if it serves as a reminder of those terrible experiences.

“I don’t need that to remember, I think about my past every day,” he responded. “But I still have it on my arm – A7713. At that time, we were numbers. No names, no identity.”

You can find this at http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/day ... local-news

Why would he remove his tattoo since two months ago?? In fact, this quote should be used as the springboard for our "Challenge." You said you have it, so show it to us.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 2:08 pm)

Trude wrote:
Hans wrote:Could he have removed the tattoo? A concentration camp tattoo is not exactly a stylish piece of fashion.

... He was quoted in the Dayton Daily News on March 26, 2010 as answering a student's question:

.... he responded. “But I still have it on my arm – A7713. ....




He doesn't say where his tattoo is on his arm or which arm it is on. He doesn't say whether it is under his arm pit.

I know the general consensus from the jews is that they were tattooed on their wrist. Some people have claimed that the jews tattooed their Swiss bank account numbers on their arms so they wouldn't forget. I don't know if that is true.


Trude wrote:Why would he remove his tattoo since two months ago?? In fact, this quote should be used as the springboard for our "Challenge." You said you have it, so show it to us.


He would not remove his tattoo. It is very stylish for a jew to have a Holocaust (R) tattoo. In judasim, a person with a Holocaust (R) tattoo is considered to be higher in status then a Rabbi.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Bradley » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 4:07 pm)

I have just reviewed this thread on EW and his missing tattoo.
I like it.
There's probably a lot more to say, stuff I have overlooked, etc. but this is a first response.

The first thing I would say is that I agree with the suggestion that the project should be tied down to some organization, or some website, or an organization with a website. That suggests CODOH.

I would probably be best if a core group of (to say something) 3, 4 persons take on the responsibility for the work. Perhaps only 2 or 3.

It would probably be best if the core group (CoreG) would work out the project off line, not here on the Forum. When the CoreG actually produces something in public, it can be criticized on the Forum as it can be anywhere else on or off the internet.

The financial backer/s of the project would put the pledge in a real place, perhaps an escrow account, to make it real, to make it honest. Which brings up another question.

While this began with the idea of offering a reward for information, we might want to reconsider this. I like the suggestion that the CoreG would focus on Boston U, and via Boston to other campuses and media. Asking questions, one question at a time. EW is not going to respond to this, I think this is agreed.

What we want here is a story that we can utilize effectively. That’s the way I think about it – others may not. But this issue needs to be addressed. It can be addressed here, has been, but maybe we should come to some conclusion about the end desire. For me, that would be a story that goes round the world.

I feel like I want to reiterate that in my view, and I might be very wrong, that the reward offer is not necessary to create a story. The question/s are all that are needed, sent to parties perhaps nationwide, but focused on Boston U and Boston/New York media, to create the story. Offering the reward has the same object as the questions very widely distributed. CODOH has such lists.

To promote the pledge drive as an effort to help others, in my view, will not create any more interest than the questions themselves, repeated and distributed widely, with radio back up, say, and perhaps speaking on campus. It will only increase the amount of work, time, involved.

“I think it would be comical if each and every faculty member at Boston University was called and asked this question. Will you ask EW where his tattoo number is hiding? EW is a full professor of philosophy at this university.”

Something like that. Worked out. Distributed at BU, but backed up by wide distribution nationally.

“Either there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, or Elie Wiesel was not a prisoner there? So, which is it?” Nice question.

I don’t know how “time sensitive” this project is, but there is no need to put it off.
As Trude says: I see no downside for us. We just need to get it anchored somewhere. I think it would be good to anchor it with CODOH. We would only have to decide where, and how. Not a very much of a problem. And we need a CoreG (next time I’ll think of a better term) to do the work. Too many hands in the work, it doesn’t get done. Hands that are busy elsewhere can’t get it done. The point here I think is that we do not need to do a lot of writing. Distribution of the Challenge/Queston/s is where a good part of the work is. I would take care of that, with advice and consent of others.

Without a reward offer, we won’t need judges, well-thought out rules, or any conditions whatever. Only the imagination necessary to get the message/question out to academics, students, and media.

And lastly, for the moment, I have to keep in mind that I am up to my chin with work as it is so we would want to keep this simple -- but as dramatic as possible. With this story, that is not all that difficult.

Oh, and by the way, just because the CoreG, anchored in CODOH, decides to work in one way on this issue does not preclude individuals working with the story in any way they see fit.

Who would want to become part of a CoreG?

This is all rather off the top of my head.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby dejesus » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 5:39 pm)

The facts: The weasel is a fraud, an imposter, a person who has claimed for decades that he has tattood on his arm the number – A7713.

The challenge: The weasel publicly showing his tattoo thus proving he is / what he claims he is.

The reward for him doing so, something that he has refused to do for decades: A reward amount donated to a worthy enough cause for doing something so simple that it will make the weasel even more suspect if he doesn't show his tattoo.

The proof that the weasel is a fraud: The photographs showing no tattoo on his arm.

What that means: That the ball is in the weasels court.

All this could be put on a one page flyer and distributed all over Boston U.

And an add in the Boston U campus newspaper.

A specific time for the weasel to show his tattoo: international holocaust rememberence day would be hard to beat.

The reward: nafcash has this at the bottom of their site:

The Final Solution Forensic Challenge TM reward offer is sponsored by NAFH associates and payment is personally guaranteed by NAFH president Greg Gerdes.


The key here is the KISS principle: Keep it Simple. Don't get too carried away with the reward amount. Remember, you don't want the other side to have something to focus on and try to draw attention away from the real issue. An amount that is too large will only give them ammunition, so keep the reward solid and keep the focus of the issue on the weasel and his criminal fraud and non tattoo.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Mon May 24, 2010 10:30 pm)

Thanks for all your input, Bradley.

Doing without the money reward part doesn't seem as effective to me. Then it is just like every other revisionist question. I think the reward gives it an element that can't be so easily ignored. If a number of people -- and it could grow to hundreds! and maybe they would give their names and we could list them -- care enough about this to put up their hard-earned dollars, then the other side can't easily ignore it. If they do, they look really snobbish. Or dishonest, because it's such an easy thing to settle.

I like everything else you said, Bradley. Focusing on Boston University precludes anyone seriously presenting a fake tattoo; they have standards to uphold. Elie's fellow academics should want to protect or guarantee his reputation -- they have an obligation to do so, don't they? It would be very interesting to find out what they would say.

I know a couple of people who are following this and might consider being in the group. You'd have to contact me privately about them.

dejesus says: The challenge: The weasel publicly showing his tattoo thus proving he is / what he claims he is.

It would have to be decided whether to aim at Wiesel directly or at others to find out from Wiesel or to make Wiesel answer these charges. Possibly, it could be added that he has escaped hard questions for 50 years; it's time he answers some. The Dayton Daily News article could be used as reason for the question -- that he claimed to the young female student that he had the tattoo still on his arm, in March 2010. Yet photographs show he doesn't.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu May 27, 2010 11:10 am)

Bradley wrote:
“I think it would be comical if each and every faculty member at Boston University was called and asked this question. Will you ask EW where his tattoo number is hiding? EW is a full professor of philosophy at this university.”




Something that might be worth mentioning, since you will be dealing with Boston U. Martin Luther King Jr got his doctorate in philosophy at Boston University. The quote below sums up Boston U's general attitude about liars.

"(N)o less an authoritative source than the four senior editors of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. (an official publication of the Martin Luther King Center for Nonviolent Social Change, Inc., whose staff includes King's widow Coretta), stated of King's writings at both Boston University and Crozer Theological Seminary: 'Judged retroactively by the standards of academic scholarship, [his writings] are tragically flawed by numerous instances of plagiarism (again, that's common theft to you and me).... Appropriated passages are particularly evident in his writings in his major field of graduate study, systematic theology...only 49 per cent of sentences in the section on Tillich (in his doctoral dissertation) contain five or more words that were King's own....'" Hoffman, ibid.

Boston University officials eventually admitted, "There is no question but that Dr. King plagiarized in the dissertation." Even so, they concluded that, "No thought should be given to the revocation of Dr. King's doctoral degree, (because such action) would serve no purpose." New York Times, October 11, 1991, page 15.



I am not trying to stop you from doing this project. In general I am in favor of it all the way. I just think it is good to know about all the obstacles you will encounter on the way.

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby skeptical » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu May 27, 2010 11:37 am)

I think you are dancing in the jaws of the dragon when you challange Elie to show a tattoo. If he coyly waits until you line up for harvest, demure, waiting patiently for all revisionist heads to be lined up on the chopping block and then with a flourish worthy of american idol dramatically flashes a (freshly minted) tattoo on national television he can kill two birds with one stone, he can raise money to replenish his personal coffers and take a big bite out of the credibility of the revisionists. All the detail oriented discussion of what the number should or shouldn't be, all the careful pointing out that the number apparently wasn't there in some photograph shot at some other time isn't going to matter. In the minds of the public it will look like a saint accosted by a rabble.... If you calculate the showman, the liar and the gullibility of his audience into your program from the outset you may have a chance but to expect the public to believe that the tattoo on his arm is "new" when it's his word against yours, when it's his media relations team against yours, when it's the "evil, anti-semetic, skin heads" pointing at pictures "purported" to show something or other against the "hero of the holocaust survivors" holding his clearly tattooed arm in the clear blue sky of Auschwitz.
There is no way that he doesn't read this site and understand exactly how to guide this discussion into his wallet.
S

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu May 27, 2010 7:49 pm)

I am willing to head up a campaign, perhaps through CODOH, to spread awareness of this issue, as long as there's funding for it.
Watch THE TREBLINKA ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/treblinka-archaeology-hoax

Semitism = Jewish Supremacism

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Re: Find Elie's tattoo! Win big money.

Postby Trude » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri May 28, 2010 10:07 am)

Ilikerealhistory wrote:

I am not trying to stop you from doing this project. In general I am in favor of it all the way. I just think it is good to know about all the obstacles you will encounter on the way.


Your input about MLK is appreciated. I think the obstacles are already well-known by the serious folks here. It's a matter now of taking some responsibility for it. Are you willing to do that? If so, I think you should let Bradley know. Of course, you have to give your real name.


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