The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

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Kurland
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The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Kurland » 9 years 10 months ago (Thu May 27, 2010 2:52 pm)

Hello. While I am fresh to the forum, I have been studying the holostory for years. One Third of the Holocaust is what kicked the camels back. The Reinhard story has never added up to me. How could 3 million people disappear in these three camps? It is just not possible. There are even financial rewards to prove it on the internet.

But from my many readings I think the revisionists only have it half right. The extermination camp baloney is fantasy. No doubt. Still revisionists argue that these camps served another major function-delousing. I am not satisfied with that answer for I question whether there were any Reinhard camps to begin with! I believe it is the only way for revisionists to fully win the battle of truth. We have defeated the hoaxters, but we have not yet been victorious ourselves.

If I may outline some evidence for my theory. I have more but would like to see questions and comments.

Physical Evidence

In short, there is no physical evidence to prove the reality of either extermination camps or delousing camps.

For Treblinka the communists did not find anything when they excavated the camp. No graves and no buildings. When they looked for the gas chamber by digging up the ground they declared “Undisturbed layers of earth were uncovered by this”. For Belzec the communists also failed to find much of anything. Shyster Kola in the 1990s found two important buildings-the alleged first and second gas chambers. The first GC building was recognized as a garage. The second disagrees with all details and particulars of eyewitness testimonies which prove that the building did not exist. See Mattognos book on Belzec p93-96. For Sobibor the same shyster Kola found one major building in the camp area which he says served as a hospital, undressing room and gas chamber. This building disagrees with all witness testimony and thus could not have served as any of them.

Despite sixty years of research in the camps only few buildings for all of Treblinka-Sobibor-Belzec were ever found. Not only does this mean that there were no exterminations, but there were no delousing camps! I take it that the alleged gas chambers would have served as delousing chambers under the delousing thesis.

Korherr Letter

Richard Korherr was author of the secret Korherr report to count the Jews living under Nazi occupation. Korherr wrote in the 1943 report: “Es wurden durchgeschleust durch die Lager im General-gouvernement.....................1 274 166 Juden“

Many revisionists think that these Jews were resettled into the conquered Soviet lands, while the hoaxtsters think they were all killed in Belzec Sobibor and Treblinka. That neither is the case is shown by Korherr’s 1977 letter on the report, where he states that these Jews had been settled into the district of Lublin/ „im Bezirk Lublin angesiedelt würden.” The location of Belzec Sobibor and Treblinka would only be useful if the Jews were to be shipped out of Lublin. That many Jews of Europe were settled into the Lublin district is also supported by Carlo Mattognos excellent research. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/9.html

These Jews were not sent directly to these camps. They remained in Lublin, where they were resettled by the Nazis.

Conclusion:
The “delousing” or “extermination” camps of Treblinka Belzec Sobibor did not exist, plain and simple. This is shown by the lack of physical evidence to support the existence of these camps, the falsehoods of the witnesses who were allegedy in these camps, and the complete absence of documents as evidence for the camps function. Before his arrest Germar Rudolf wrote that hardly any documents about these camps survive. Camp plans, registers, budgets, etc…were all missing.

Instead, these areas were more likely related to the labor camps that existed in the early 1940s all along eastern Lublin. These were not camps where hundreds of thousands of Jews were sent.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Barncat » 9 years 8 months ago (Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:56 am)

But from my many readings I think the revisionists only have it half right. The extermination camp baloney is fantasy. No doubt. Still revisionists argue that these camps served another major function-delousing. I am not satisfied with that answer for I question whether there were any Reinhard camps to begin with! I believe it is the only way for revisionists to fully win the battle of truth. We have defeated the hoaxters, but we have not yet been victorious ourselves.


I am inclined to think that Kurland is on to something quite major here and I am wondering why more of us have
not challanged the Reinhardt myth more forcefully.

If Treblinka etc were delousing camps, then many Jews would be coming forth and promoting themselves as survivors
of these camps in order to gain attention and exploit the opportunity to become more prominant victims. As Kurland states,
the complete lack of forensic evidence of large scale building on the sites of these camps is powerful evidence that
these were neither extermination or transit camps, but remote, insignificant outposts with (as yet) vaguely known purposes.

It is due to the insignificance of these camps, perhaps, that hoaxters chose them to be the centers of their tale.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:56 am)

I think it's widely recognised by Revisionists that absence of testimony of "survivors" who transited through the Reinhardt camps is a weak link in their case, though some interesting stuff is being posted in Inconvenient History.

I'm not knowledgeable on this, so I'm only asking questions based on what I have read but can't necessarily source right now, but aren't there fairly substantial records of people sent to Sobibor & Treblinka, especially from Holland? A thread a couple of months ago on here :
http://codoh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4973&p=32189&hilit=Holland+Westerbork&sid=d5aac27805b104ab44089835f3b9f641&sid=d5aac27805b104ab44089835f3b9f641#p32189.
In an earlier thread jnovitz posted this link:
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/chronicles.html?page=4

There's also a telegram released by British intelligence since 2000 with alleged figures and the letters T, B, and S. I can't recall enough to give a reference but more knowledgeable people will be able to.

If large numbers of people were sent there, then there had to be something there. Disinfestation stations seem probable.

[Webmaster: Why is this site so unresponsive? It's certainly not because of the huge number of people using it!]

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Kurland » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:05 pm)

Thanks for the words, Barncat.

Kingfisher- I do not like to use witness testimony. Too many lie or “forget” crucial matters which makes their testimonies worthless. I like to take a scientific approach to history constructed on the reliance of physical evidence and documentary proof. Really, I take the questionable/unreliable element out of my work. Your first link only uses witness testimony.

@Sobibor deportations:
No doubt some people could have been deported to the labor camp Sobibor from Holland much like many seem to have been sent to Auschwitz. I do not know how many. These deportations are certainly related to the major labour programmes going on. If there really was a “gassing” programme, or resettlement scheme for certain Revisionists, then all the Jews would have been sliced through the Sobibor Belzec and Treblinka camps. Notice that both that Mainstream and Revisionist positions are not correct.

You also make mention of the “Hoefle telegram.” This telegram is not authentic, which can be seen from this discussion:
viewtopic.php?t=4558

How did the British intelligence ignore this document for so long after the war? Why does the document have many anomalies such as spelling errors, incorrect referencing, and numerical mistakes? Believers cannot explain these problems but some Revisionists acknowledge and then ignore them. Without this fake document then Believers have nothing to tie Belzec Sobibor or Treblinka to such large number of people sent there.

Major disinfestation is not possible in these locations. There is no evidence to support it. There is much information and evidence which shows that these three key camps were labour camps or some other supporting role for the Jewish reservation in Lublin.
[/quote]

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:33 pm)

I think the first thing I'd do is get Mattogno and Graf's book Treblinka (and also Mattogno's book Belzec) at vho.org and find out why they believe the camps were delousing camps.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:30 pm)

Kingfisher- I do not like to use witness testimony. Too many lie or “forget” crucial matters which makes their testimonies worthless.

In general, yes, of course, Kurland. I do agree. But here we are talking of absence of witnesses; I was supporting Barncat's point, that if hundreds of thousands had really been through there they should be coming out of the woodwork, but they aren't. There is some discussion of this in Inconvenient History, as I commented above.

Sobibor deportations:
No doubt some people could have been deported to the labor camp Sobibor from Holland much like many seem to have been sent to Auschwitz.

Good point, if there was a labour camp at Sobibor as there was at Treblinka. I don't recall now, so I'll take your word for it.

It was the Hoefle telegram I was thinking of, and like you I did have my suspicions that it could well be an Intelligence Service forgery, but I'd thought that it was generally believed by Revisionists too. I'll have a look at your link.

I've read Graf and Mattogno on these camps. As you know they see them as transit camps. I'm not convinced by your idea, but I'm open to it if you like to expand on your thoughts.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Barncat » 9 years 8 months ago (Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:30 pm)

From Mattogno and Graf:

f. The Thesis of the Transit Camp

The revisionist studies mentioned to this point have restricted themselves exclusively to refuting the official picture of Treblinka as an "extermination camp." An alternative interpretation of its function has not appeared in these studies, which of course is the direct consequence of the complete lack of contemporary documents. Yet some notable revisionist authors have proposed the thesis that Treblinka was a transit camp for Jews. The American scholar Prof. Dr. Arthur R. Butz suggested in his revisionist classic The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, which appeared for the first time in 1976, that Treblinka simultaneously served as a labor camp as well as a transit camp for Jews resettled to the east,[109] and Prof. Robert Faurisson also supports the transit camp thesis.[110]

Finally, US historian Mark Weber, together with US lawyer Andrew Allen, wrote an excellent article about Treblinka in 1992, in which the two authors summarized all the familiar arguments made to that point in time against the thesis of the 'extermination camp,' introduced new viewpoints in the field, and wrote concerning the actual nature of the camp:[111]

"If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? [...] the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II - along with Belzec and Sobibor - was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were stripped of their property and valuables before being transferred eastwards into German-occupied Soviet territories."

Since Treblinka was much too small to be able to accommodate the large number of Jews deported there at the same time, the transit camp thesis is, in fact, the single plausible alternative to the conventional picture of the extermination camp. Tertium non datur - no third possibility is given.



We have eye witnesses - for what little worth these Dutch Jews statements represent - for Sobibor as a possible transit camp, but
none that I know of for either Treblinka or Belzec.

The major accomplishment for revisionists was their proving that absolutely no forensic evidence exists to justify thinking of any of these
camps as sites for murder. The argument for the "Reinhardt" transit camps, thus, becomes an afterthought - "If Treblinka was not an
extermination center, what was it?"

It appears that revisionists, having proven the real significant thesis, had only slight investment in researching an alternative narrative.
If Jews were not murdered in gas chambers, how important is it to find out where they eventually turned up?

However, if we assume that some two million people were housed, fed, deloused and transported at these sites it does not
seem credible that there would be such a paucity of Archeological evidence. Imagine a future dig on the site of Grand Central Station.
In fact, one would assume that a transit camp would represent far more resources and materials than a death camp.

It might be that revisionists have simply underestimated Jewish malice and dishonesty. It is one thing to take the narrative of
forced mass population movement and concoct a story of murder, and yet another to create a narrative of mass murder out of nothing
at all. Such is the manipulative genius of Jews.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:52 am)

I remember David Irving went to Treblinka shortly after he got out of jail. He wrote that he couldn't even find a slab (foundation) of a house, or something like that. Yet he states he believes the place was a death camp. He may be saying this though, so as not to be classified a denier.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Barncat » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:08 am)

Dutch Nazi camp rebuilt as grim Holocaust reminder

Ninety metres of the loathed railway track still cut across the 25-hectare (62-acre) field, the size of 25 football pitches, but its ends are now symbolically twisted up towards the sky. To one side, the dilapidated house of the former camp commander looks out over the 102,000 red stones, each one a tribute to one of the murdered Jews.

Up to 18,000 people could be held at Westerbork at any one time in about 100 wooden barracks, with 800 people crammed into around 60 dormitories on bunks piled three-high.

Decades after the war, in the 1970s, the wood barracks were dismantled and taken over by farmers around the country as barns for their pigs or chickens.



Westerbork was a known transit camp and featured a large complex of buildings as one would expect of a facility that
had a role in transferring a significant number of laborers assisting German production during the war. Disregarding the
exterminationist nonsense in the snippet that I am posting from a magazine article, one would expect to find a substantial
number of intact buildings had Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor been transit camps or extermination camps.

Certainly, if the camps were transit camps, the Germans would have no need to destroy the site to cover up so called
atrocities, and if it were a death camp there would have been enormous amounts of forensic evidence. That nothing
of interest can be found on these sites supports Kurland's suggestion that these places were simply without signifigance
and arbitrarilly used as places for hoaxters to pinpoint their absurd tale.

BTW, I am convinced that the exterminationist fairytale about revolts at Sobibor and Treblinka were just that, stories
fabricated to boast of Jewish heroism. These lies about camps being burned to the ground by brave Jews slated for the
gas chambers were simply improvised bits to explain why nothing existed at these places - more bogus drama for the
consumption of the gullible masses. In any case, Belzec was not alleged to have been torched during a revolt and there
is nothing there either.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Gailst » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:32 am)

Barncat

Belzec... there is nothing there either.



Sorry to tell you this Barncat, but you will soon be eating those words.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Lohengrin » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:42 pm)

Westerbork was a known transit camp and featured a large complex of buildings as one would expect of a facility that had a role in transferring a significant number of laborers assisting German production during the war. Disregarding the
exterminationist nonsense in the snippet that I am posting from a magazine article, one would expect to find a substantial
number of intact buildings had Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor been transit camps or extermination camps.


Westerbork was since 1936 a permanent Dutch camp for foreign Jews who fled to Holland on their way to other countries and for who Holland was not willing to integrate them. It was used by the Germans as a Transit camp until the end of the war. It was facilitated with many facilities (living barracks, schools, factories, hospital, etc.) and differed much from the short term Transit Lagers in Poland, for which there was no need to operate them any longer after the transit-operation was finished, and the Russians coming near.
The last deportation train from Westerbork departed September 13th 1944. At that time there was quite something in Westerbork useful for the Germans, and no need to destroy it.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Barncat » 9 years 8 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:39 pm)

Westerbork was since 1936 a permanent Dutch camp for foreign Jews who fled to Holland on their way to other countries and for who Holland was not willing to integrate them. It was used by the Germans as a Transit camp until the end of the war. It was facilitated with many facilities (living barracks, schools, factories, hospital, etc.) and differed much from the short term Transit Lagers in Poland, for which there was no need to operate them any longer after the transit-operation was finished, and the Russians coming near.
The last deportation train from Westerbork departed September 13th 1944. At that time there was quite something in Westerbork useful for the Germans, and no need to destroy it.


Lohengrin, you are correct in differentiating between Westerbork and Treblinka but that is not to say that
in the conventional view of Treblinka there is not an assumption that substantial instalations existed. The revisionist
view of these camps as transit camps does not challenge the usual hoaxter nonsense about the basic physical
layout of the camp with the exception of disbelief in the gas chambers and mass graves. Kurland has suggested that
a truly scientific examination of the Treblinka site would not support a view that this area supported a major operation of any sort -
extermination or transit. There is simply nothing there to reinforce the centrality of Treblinka.

Here is the hoaxter discription of Treblinka instalations



The living camp housed the German and Ukrainian supervisory and guard force as well as the Jewish slave laborers (the arbeitsjuden). The Jewish prisoners performed all the tasks associated with processing the incoming convoy’s belongings and camp maintenance and construction. The prisoners were housed in a large U- shaped barracks just north of the reception area. This part of the living camp was enclosed by fencing and the prisoners were locked in every night. The area included an “appelplatz”, or roll call square.

The living camp was rigorously segregated from the death camp. The system of compartmentation extended from the visual aspects - earth mounds and pine boughs woven into the security fencing prevented one to see into the death camp - to insulating the Jewish slave labor from their fellow prisoners in the totenlager. The SS and Ukrainian force had their own support facilities - buildings for medical, messing, storage and other purposes. There were also workshops, and a stables. The living camp also held a small work force of polish women who cooked for the SS contingent and had days off as though they worked in an ordinary milieu. (Reference 19, p166) These women required housing. There was even a recreational site consisting of a zoo. The latter was a building built in a central location. It was bordered by a decorative birch fence. It had rustic settees scattered about, and the menagerie included foxes and various birds. There was a dove cote on the zoo building’s roof. All these facilities, at the direction of Commandant Stangl, were subject to decorative improvements by the Jewish slave laborers. Sereny, in her interviews with Stangl quotes him saying that the camp “became really beautiful”, with flower beds colorful paint schemes. (Reference 19, p166)


I would like to hear more about Kurland's thoughts about the Reinhardt camps. I feel that it is important for revisionists to
reject all aspects of the hoaxter narrative that lack scientific proof. If Treblinka was a transit camp there should be
some archeological evidence to support that large scale instalations existed there.

As a revisionist, I feel that the Jewish hoax is all the more diabolical if the narrative regarding these sites was completely
fabricated rather than merely distorted.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 8 months ago (Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:25 am)

Imagine a future dig on the site of Grand Central Station.
In fact, one would assume that a transit camp would represent far more resources and materials than a death camp.

Not really. Especially if the death camp had to accommodate hundreds of thousands of buried bodies which were then dug up and burned.

Assuming the 2M is a reasonable estimation for 3 camps operating for about a year, that's only 1800 a day per camp, or around 150 an hour on a 12-hour day. That would not require particularly extensive disinfestation facilities. I'm not saying it's necessarily the case. Just that if it were, it would not require extensive facilities.

Presumably there is at least some evidence for the area of the sites, isn't there? Even if none for what was actually going on inside.

I remember David Irving went to Treblinka shortly after he got out of jail. He wrote that he couldn't even find a slab (foundation) of a house, or something like that.

Much of the site is covered in memorial concrete, conveniently ruling out any forensic investigation. Go there on Google maps. There are plenty of photographs.

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Lohengrin » 9 years 8 months ago (Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:29 pm)

Barncat wrote:Lohengrin, you are correct in differentiating between Westerbork and Treblinka but that is not to say that in the conventional view of Treblinka there is not an assumption that substantial instalations existed. The revisionist view of these camps as transit camps does not challenge the usual hoaxter nonsense about the basic physical
layout of the camp with the exception of disbelief in the gas chambers and mass graves. Kurland has suggested that
a truly scientific examination of the Treblinka site would not support a view that this area supported a major operation of any sort - extermination or transit. There is simply nothing there to reinforce the centrality of Treblinka.

I don't know if Barncat knows all the whereabouts of "Treblinka". It seems not. Let me react on some of his observations in his text above.
Which "Treblinka" do you speak off? Treblinka I, the Arbeitslager with 10.000 inmates, Treblinka II, the Transit lager, at a distance of 2 km, or the Malkinia Workshops with many thousand workers? This is important because Holocaust literature mostly never make any distinction between them. All kind of 'findings', graves in Treblinka I included, usually euphemistically are referred to as "found in Treblinka". So which "Treblinka" do we speak off?

"Substantial installations": do you mean housing baracks of the inmates of Treblinka I, or maybe "steam chambers," "electrocution installations with steel floor" and automatic processing of the bodies in fertilizer in an underground factory in Treblinka II? Or maybe the "conveyor belt for automatic execution" of hundred thousand jews? Perhaps the "Steam chambers"? Or "Chlorine chambers"?
And if not, why then do we have to accept the "Diesel gas chambers" for true?

Do you know that there is not one document and not one photograph of Treblinka II? You also know there are no corpses, no graves, no 13.000 tons of human ashes, not tens of millions teeth (not ONE). NOTHING !
Have you heard of Richard Krege?
Do you know that a Yad Vashem official once said "We know quite for any time that there was no extermination camp" (Treblinka II).

If there was a 'camp' Treblinka, it must have been a transit camp and nothing else. Kurland may suggest that "a truly scientific examination of the Treblinka site would not support a view that this area supported a major operation of any sort - extermination or transit" but that's an utterly wrong comparison. If there were indeed hundreds of thousands people murdered there, buried, dugged up, incinerated, etc., one has to find thousands of traces from all kind.
Suppose those devilish genius nazi's found a method to dismantle ALL of their installations, there must be traces of that anywhere, unless we accept the fact that they took all the debris, installations, wreckage and rubble with them back to Germany. Otherwise, this stuff must be found somewhere in the vicinity of Treblinka. Or not so?

Transition is quite another case. Transited people leave no traces at all (like at Treblinka II !).
It goes much too far to explain here why it is very good possible to move hundreds of thousand of people to other destinations, farther east or to other places. There is information that a lot of people from Treblinka II were deported to Auschwitz, the Baltic States, etc.
Only those who went further east, to the Soviet territories were never heard of. But there are perfect explanations for this: the Soviets had no interest at all after the War to announce that 'million' of jews were safe in their country. Not only because to do so would unburden "the German fascist monsters", but also because of their own mass murder on millions of eastward transported people further east to the Goelags, mainly by the Soviet Jewish mass murder Michael Kaganovich.

It was not without reason that the Soviet regime for many years after the War all those "extermination camps" kept closed for any Western or other investigators. It was also not without reason that Soviet citizens were not free to move or to communicate with people in other countries, even moving in the USSR was strictly restricted.

No, the transition option is a very plausible and valid hypothesis. 870.000 times more than the "gassing" hypothesis foor "Treblinka".

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Re: The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

Postby Barncat » 9 years 8 months ago (Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:06 pm)

Do you know that a Yad Vashem official once said "We know quite for any time that there was no extermination camp" (Treblinka II).
[size=50]

Lohengrin, this is very interesting and not surprising. Please post the link.

I have done quite a bit of reading about Treblinka and, of course realise that there was
a labor camp in addition to the site claimed by the hoaxters to have been the place where
almost a million Jews met their end via steam chambers, electrocution chambers, diesel
exhaust or whatever Jewish lies have yet to be debunked. Obviously, I completely agree with
your assessment that there is not a particle of evidence to support the Jewish lies and guilt
that have been foisted upon us.

The transit camp idea is one that I am currently struggling with. If you pause for a moment and
ask yourself - "does the fact that the Treblinka exterminations are a hoax prove that Treblinka
must have been a transit camp?" - you will have to logically conclude that this is not the case.

I believe that we revisionists have been taken in by hoaxed/forged documents pertaining to train
schedules and deportations to the Reinhardt camps. Auschwitz was a transit camp - in addition to
its role as an industrial site- Westerbork, and Drancy were transit camps.

We know that these sites functioned as transit sites because tens of thousands of Jews have come
forward and admitted that they were transitted from these camps and are obviously alive and well
if less than honest. No Jew has stepped forward and tried to pass himself as being a survivor of Belzec
other than one or two hoaxters. A handful of these liars claim to have staged a revolt at Treblinka II,
but no significant numbers.

The hoaxters use this absence of survivors as evidence that all Jews were murdered at these places. I
believe that Kurland is proposing a stronger revisionist narrative by arguing that no Jews were transported
to these camps to begin with. Perhaps Kurland can clarify these issues as the idea is still new to me. Clearly,
this theory explains things that were previously puzzling.


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