Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

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bagel
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Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Postby bagel » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:52 am)

Hi,
could I just ask, if the Holocaust was a conspiracy that millions of people were in on, then what would be the reason behind the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (April 19th 1943). The Uprising which is the first Uprising against the Nazis in a major city was according to Marek Edelman (The Bund commander of the Uprising) an Uprising to show that Jews would not go quietly to their deaths. They decided on this after Zygmunt Friedrich came back with a map from Treblinka and with two eye witnesses to the atrocities of the camp (Faithful Unto Death by Aviva Ravel). If there were no atrocities then why would hundreds of people spend four weeks (longer than Poland and France) fighting the Nazis for their peoples honor?
Is this another conspiracy that Emmanuel Ringelbloom (of the Ringelbloom archieves), Mordechai Analewicz (The leader of the Uprising), General Jurgen Stroop (The Nazi incharge of dealing with the Uprising) and German photographers, not to mention hundreds of both Polish and Jewish civilians?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:35 am)

I believe you're confused. Revisionists do not reject the claim of a civil disturbance in Warsaw. No strawman arguments, please.

Undoubtedly, like anything having to do with the period, it has been absurdly inflated, over dramatized, and generally spun in a manner that is advantageous to Zionists and communists.
Occupiers usually are greeted with resistance movements and uprisings. Ask apartheid Israel and the US troops in Iraq.

The Warsaw disturbance has nothing to do with proving the laughable 'gas chambers' and '6,000,000'....for which there is no proof. If you think so, then please post to an existing thread on the matter, or start a new one. It does help however, if you look through the page after page of topics here.

Cheers, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

bagel
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Huh?

Postby bagel » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:06 pm)

Sorry but the Zionist and Communist plot doesn't make any sense in this case. If it was a Zionist plot then why was the Bund (A non-Zionist) organisation part of the ZOB(Jewish fighting organisation)? It also doesn't explain why Jewish anti-Zionists joined the ZZW (The other Jewish fighting movement). What is further baffling is why the numbers suggested by Jurgen Stroop are identical to those sited by Marek Edelman, Simcha Rotem, Mordechai Analewicz, Antek Zuckerman and Vladka Meed. I am not question your "theories" on the gas chambers. I am simply wondering if you choose to believe those theories then please explain why there are so many claims and evidence that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was evidence that Jews would not go up in smoke, as it were. If there was nowhere to go up in smoke then I'd like to know what the real reason for the Uprising one, because as I've mentioned above the theory of a Zionist/Communist plot is laughable.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:21 pm)

Please read what I wrote.
Undoubtedly, like anything having to do with the period, it **has been** absurdly inflated, over dramatized, and generally spun in a manner that is advantageous to Zionists and communists.


You seem to be a bit rambling when discussing this. Please be specific.
Again, no one questions that there was a civil disturbance in Warsaw.

Now, please give us your reasons for thinking that those from Warsaw 'went up in smoke'. Yes, a discussion on 'gas chambers' will naturally result from your assertions.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby wild coyote » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:36 pm)

To bagel
You have to settle where we agree on a historical topic before we can determine where we disagree.

You write:
could I just ask, if the Holocaust was a conspiracy that millions of people were in on


My response: but there are not millions of eyewitnesses to the gas chambers.

You write:
then what would be the reason behind the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (April 19th 1943). The Uprising which is the first Uprising against the Nazis in a major city was according to Marek Edelman (The Bund commander of the Uprising) an Uprising to show that Jews would not go quietly to their deaths.


My response: I don’t understand your reasoning. Are you claiming that there was a gas chamber in Warsaw? If not how can the upraising be used to show “that the Jews would not go quietly to their deaths”?

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Postby bagel » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 am)

To wild coyote,
I am not at all claiming that there were gas chambers in Warsaw. If you had read my original post you would know that I was referring to the eye witness accounts and maps presented to the ZOB by Zygmunt Friedrich about the gas chambers and crematorias at Treblinka. Once the organisation had evidence of the gas chambers (the evidence provided by Friedrich) they decided not to use passive resistance but armed resistance (The first large scale armed resistance took place on January 18th 1943 at the beginning of a deportation and the final Uprising took place on April 19th 1943 before the deporation which was to remove all the inhabitance of the Ghetto to Treblinka were according to Nazi documentation they were to be subjected to the Final Solution which was decided at the Wannsee conference to be death. (See transcripts of Eichmanns interrogation). This is what I am talking about and I appoligise if I was vague but I assumed that members of this site would be aware of the details behind such an important event during the Holocaust.

Hannover,
once again, I am not questioning your ideas on the gas chambers. All I am asking is that if there were no gas chambers then why would they do it. Thankyou for answering that question however your response still does not answer why Jewish non and anti-Zionists would be involved in an Uprising that would help the Zionists and why Jewish fascists would be involved in an Uprising that would be "spun in a manner that is advantagrous to Zionists and communists." I would be more than prepared to accept your answer except that it does not at all deal with the diversity of political opinions among the Jews at that time. It was also not explained why Jurgen Stroop would be in on the plot.

I would like to appoligise again if I wasn't clear but as I said I had assumed that members of this site would be familiar with such an important point of the Holocaust.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:31 am)

There were no homicidal gas chambers, your 'evidence' is necessarily fraudulent. Post to a thread about them or start a new one. Let's not mix topics.

There are many threads here which shoot down the notion of Treblinka as a 'death camp'. ex.: The alleged massive pit which allegedly held 900,000 Jews is nowhere to be found...oops. Again, post to a thread about it or start a new one. Let's not mix topics. Try our 'search' function for Treblinka.

We all know about the impotent, 'no big deal' Wannsee Conference; again, post to a thread about it or start a new one.

The 'Final Solution' is also old news to Revisionists, it was a policy of relocation and resettlement. There is absolutely nothing to sustain the allegation of a state planned genocide. Again, post to a thread about it or start a new one.

I challenge you to support your views on these points.

Regards, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:03 am)

Quote from Bagel “They decided on this after Zygmunt Friedrich came back with a map from Treblinka and with two eye witnesses to the atrocities of the camp (Faithful Unto Death by Aviva Ravel). “

The reason that the Jews in Warsaw started the uprising was given in your question. Zygmunt Friedrich came to Warsaw with false witnesses including stories about gas chambers, which frightened the Jews of Warsaw so that they revolted. So the major blame for the deaths should be placed on the people who gave the false testimony. If I walk into a crowded theater and falsely yell FIRE, I would be responsible for the injuries and deaths caused by the panic I caused. Just because everyone in the theater believed there was a fire does not mean that there was a fire.

This is similar to the false stories of the Soviet Army being ready to help the Polish Warsaw uprising which caused many deaths among the noncommunist resistance in Poland. The deaths of the noncommunist resistance fighters helped the Soviets place their handpicked communist Polish allies in power in Poland.

Quote from Bagel “If it was a Zionist plot then why was the Bund (A non-Zionist) organization part of the ZOB(Jewish fighting organization)? It also doesn't explain why Jewish anti-Zionists joined the ZZW (The other Jewish fighting movement). “

Once again, they were lied to by the people who brought back the false stories. Spreading false stories in order to force Jews to Israel and to discredit non-Zionist is something that would fit in with Zionist agenda of creating a New Israel.

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Postby wild coyote » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:12 pm)

I want to make a few more points:

1) The Jewish Fighting Organization (ZOB) was a Jewish partisan organization who had committed numerous acts of terrorism against the German Armed forces before the Warsaw ghetto upraising. Many of its leaders were indeed communist and Zionist.

2) It was because of these activities that Himmler decided to relocate the Jewish population along with the workshops and factories. The fear was that sabotage the rail nexus which ran through the ghetto which was vital to operations in the Eastern front.

3) The ZOB used the deportation as an opportunity to spread panic and fear in the Jewish community (as grapple pointed out, like someone screaming fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire). Jewish historian Yisrael Gutman points outs in his book The Jews of Warsaw, “the ZOB put up wall posters that called for opposition to the German orders stressing that ‘voluntary relocation’ means nothing more then the complete annihilation of the ghetto.”

4) Walter C. Tobbens a German businessman, who was commissioned by the German government to supervise the production accomplished with Jewish labor, pleaded with the Jews of Warsaw not to listen to the ZOB’s lies. He posted a refutation next to the ZOB’s posters, but most were confiscated by the ZOB shortly after they were posted.

5) Tobbens’ appeal refuted all the points made by the ZOB, I will quote it:

To the Jewish Rustung workers in the Jewish residential quarter!
On the night of March 14-15, the Kammando of the Jewish Fighting Organization put up posters to which I will reply:

1. There was never any intention of executing an evacuation operation.

2. Neither Mr. Schultz nor I was forced at gunpoint to carry out the Aktion.

3. I herby affirm that the Jews in the last transport were not killed…


He Continues:

Jewish armament workers! Do not believe those who are trying to mislead you. They want to incite you so that they can force [upon you] the concequences that will inevitably ensue…With a clear conscience, I can only advise you again: Go to Trawniki, go to Poinatow, for you have a chance to live there; you can have a chance to sit out the war there! The Kommando of the Fighting Organization does you no good, and his promises are meaningless… Please put your faith in the hands of the German firms who together with you want to transfer the production to Poniatow and Trawniki. Take your wives and children with you, for they will be looked after.
Walter C. Tobbens
Supervisor of the Evacuation of Firms from the Jewish Quarter of Warsaw.
March 20, 1943


TOBBENS WAS TELLING THE TRUTH!! The Jews were never going to be deported to any alleged death camp. Only when Tobbens efforts failed did the German armed forces decide to take their police action, and they had hardly any other choice.

bagel
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thank you

Postby bagel » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:08 am)

Thank you grapple for answering my question.

It really did not require much and I thank Grapple for taking the time to actually answer the question I posted weeks ago which before him I got nothing but allegations which had nothing to do with my questions

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Postby bagel » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:21 am)

Now Toebbens was someone who stood to gain from Jews acting passively, "going like sheep to the slughter" as it were. He would only finacially lose from having Jews not showing up for work, but defending themselves. Toebbens opinion is therefore biased.

There were never, NEVER any claims that the ZOB did not use terrorist methods. But as they say one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

There is documentation presented at the Nuremberg trials and again at the Eichmann trial, presented by Nazis and their sympatheisers that state that the Jewish people were being sent to death camps. In Adolph Eichmann's testimony he states out right that death by gas chamber was after 1943, the aim of the Nazi party.

Evidence at the Nuremberg trial was presented by the head Nazi at Auschwitz who joked about the pik color the victims turned after their deaths via Zyklon B.

Sorry but since there were no more than 10 commanders of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, with only one of them a Communist and only 7 being Zionists, the political ideologies of the commanders actually have very little to do with their work for the ZOB. If it had, it would have been impossible for the ZOB to have been created in the first place.

I don't understand the concept of a non-zionist lieing to non-zionists in order to get a zionist aim. grapple claimed that the jews were lied to in order to get a zionist aim and discredit non-zionists. But Zygmunt Frydrych and one of the witnesses were non-zionists. They were both members of the Jewish Labor Bund. I do not understand why Frydrych would want to discredit his own belief system.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:46 am)

bagel proclaims:
There is documentation presented at the Nuremberg trials and again at the Eichmann trial, presented by Nazis and their sympatheisers that state that the Jewish people were being sent to death camps. In Adolph Eichmann's testimony he states out right that death by gas chamber was after 1943, the aim of the Nazi party.

Evidence at the Nuremberg trial was presented by the head Nazi at Auschwitz who joked about the pink color the victims turned after their deaths via Zyklon B.

while all of that has been debunked repeatedly here under separate threads, which he curiously chooses to avoid.

May I suggest a search here of: 'Hoess' testimonies, 'Eichmann', 'gas chambers, 'Nuremberg', various other trials, or specific individuals who comprise the so called 'eyewitnesses/'confessions'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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