So, crematories.

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dantesnake
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So, crematories.

Postby dantesnake » 1 decade 7 months ago (Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:33 pm)

Greetings.

http://www.hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/cremation1

Additional instructions from Topf in September 1941 advised that "once the cremation chamber has been brought to a good red heat the bodies can be introduced one after the other in the cremation chambers." This letter again cautioned against letting the ovens cool.10
The Topf instructions for their double muffle furnaces envisaged that a body would be added in the oven during the last twenty minutes before the last one was fully cremated. "As soon as the remains of the bodies have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a further twenty minutes to be fully consumed . . . In the meantime, further bodies can be introduced one after the other into the chambers."11
According to Topf's calculations this would result in a 25 minute burning cycle for each body.12


Where are these Topf "instructions"? Have they ever surfaced?

And plz reccomend the best reading on crematories.

thank you.

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby SevenUp » 1 decade 7 months ago (Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:05 am)

The standard numbers that I've read are that it takes approximately 2 hours to cremate a body at 2000 deg. f, for example .... from

http://www.everlifememorials.com/v/urns/cremation-process.htm

The crematory operator then starts the machine which normally goes through a warm up cycle before the main burning begins. After the machine is warmed up, the main burner ignites starting the process of incinerating the body. Temperatures within the chamber often reach the 1800°F - 2000°F range. The burners within a cremator are fueled by either natural gas or propane.

It generally takes about 1-1/2 to 2 hours for a body to be completely reduced to just the bone fragments by cremation. Some cremation furnaces, especially the older ones, may require a little more time.

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby dantesnake » 1 decade 7 months ago (Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:13 am)

Oh, thx.

but, what's this guy talking about:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/10670

dmitry, post #4

As far as I understand, there are several documents that state productivity for Auschwitz-type ovens:

1.

Statement of two Topf engineers about 30-36 corpses in 10 hours for 2-muffle oven - this is 1.5-1.8 corpse/muffle*h.
2.

Prufer letter, 8/9/1942, for Crema I 250 bodies/day = 2.08 or 1.74 corpse/muffle*h assuming 20 or 24 hours work day; for Crema II and III (under construction) 800 bodies/day = 2.67 or 2.22 corpse/muffle*h; Crema IV and V (under construction) 800 bodies/day = 5.0 or 4.17 corpse/muffle*h;
3.

Building Office letter, 26/6/1943, all ovens are built: Crema I 340 bodies/day = 2.83 or 2.36 corpse/muffle*h assuming 20 or 24 hours work day; Crema II and III, 1440 bodies/day = 4.8 or 4 corpse/muffle*h; Crema IV and V, 768 bodies/day = 4.8 or 4 corpse/muffle*h.
4.

Gusen timetable. According to Zimmerman's interpretation, 2.4 corpse/muffle*h for 07.11.1941. According to Mattogno's interpretation, 1.76 corpse/muffle*h (=34 minutes per corpse) and this is theoretical maximum. The problem for Mattogno is that the group of his assumptions (1 Karren Koks = 60kg + his interpretation + 90kg/h maximum coke consumption) is inconsistent because in this case at least 34=45-11 Karren Koks were burnt from 11.15, 07.11.1941 to 7.00, 08.11.1941. This is 2040kg of coke per 19.75h = 103 kg/h, but this is theoretically impossible as Mattogno himself states above. Correction of this issue, than 90kg/h is no longer a limit, results in 1.82 corpse/muffle*h, and this is estimate from below.
5.

There is also a letter from 15.11.1942 of 1/3 greater productivity of 3-muffle ovens than was expected. Mattogno claims that the word "leisten" means efficiency, not productivity.


are these letters legit sources?

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 7 months ago (Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:43 pm)

still smarting from the hiding you received on RODOH dante?

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby dantesnake » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:12 am)

No, detective Sherlock, that's my friend. He said that he would find his answers on other place than mine (which is obviously codoh, among others),
but I did look trough rodoh and i really do find calculations dmitry did interesting, altough i don't understand shit :D

nonetheless, even if 3.5kg/body is true, that's far from absolute proof that holocaust happened.

but I do seek the truth, and am not automatically dismissing findings of the other team,
as you can see from asking my revisionist fellows if they can explain dmitry's calculations.

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:41 am)

This letter of Topf that's correct. You may also remember the precision painter Olere, who has painted the pushing in of dead bodies into the burning oven.

Also this representation corresponds to the fact that Jews are fire resistant. This refractoriness was exploited by the Nazis, as they have heated the gas chambers also to about 1200 ° C.

This is calculated from the killing testified time of 1 minute with the help of 4 kg of Zyklon B. Only at this high temperature the cyanide could evaporate so quickly that the Jews were poisoned in 1 minute. It can even be assumed that the Nazis were able to increase the gas chamber temperature to 2000 ° C. You have only to assume that the wire net is not the wire mesh columns consisted of iron but of tungsten.

About the material of this wire network no information is known. However, a statement about the material of the cyclone container "Partie Mobile" is known. It was steel. Steel has a melting temperature of about 1500 ° C and was therefore in a neighborhood of 2000 ° C for the short time of the gassing due to the cooling hydrogen cyanide and its own thermal inertia survive.

Concerns have been killing and times of "immediately" and "just in aye klick". These testimonies will correspond to a temperature of the gas chamber of about 2000 ° C or higher.

Back to the ovens. It is usually impossible, as illustrated by the painter Olere was to approach such a large furnace opening in 1100 ° C so close. The radiation would burn the skin in seconds, or kill a man.

Therefore, again, the conclusion: Jews are fireproof!

This is attested in the Bible in Daniel (Dan 3,1.4-6.8.12-26)!
Image

Because of the historicaly testifed fire resistance of the Jews, it was also possible only in a gas chamber (Krema II or III) a day to 30,000 Jews gassed and cremated after that in the gas chamber at 1,200 ° C in a few minutes (about 15)! After all, the first Jews that hot in the 1200 ° C were gas chambers were, almost a half hour pre-heated before they suffered death by Zyklon B.

The refractory also Jewish Sonderkommando had only removing the ashes. Even if the last occurring in the gas chamber Jew could not be preheated so long, his cremation was even possible during the sweeping! His ashes have been swept certainly last.

Only dead Jews are burned. From this fact, the Nazis exploited and therefore it has the Holocaust in the truest sense of the word certainly given. All witnesses, evidence suggests.

Unlike with the fire resistance of the Jews, the extremely short time killing with Zyklon B would not explain.

It is very easy to calculate the temperature of the gas chamber!

See also the German forum viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5996

Very important:

Holocaust-Deniers

Holocaust-deniers reject that these columns even existed. The convergence of this evidence, including the compelling testimonies giving details before corroborating documentary evidence was unearthed, is ignored.

Kula's and Tauber's depositions describing the "wire-mesh insertion devices," decades before the corroborating documentary evidence was discovered in the archives, cannot be explained away. Houstek/Erber's description of the same devices, also before that evidence was discovered, is also a powerful corroboration.

Deniers will likely argue that the minor differences in their descriptions mean we should ignore them. But should we really expect to find identical accounts? The prisoners gave their descriptions months after the fact; the perpetrator, 35 years later. That may account for some of the difference. Just as importantly, we do not know if the Nazis in charge of the gassing operation tried slightly different types of equipment from time to time.

Indeed, if all three descriptions were exactly alike, we might suspect that the later account was copied from the earlier ones. Because they are not, we know that here are three separate eyewitnesses to these items.

Holocaust-deniers reject the validity of the aerial photographs, claiming that the four dark spots on the roof of each gas chamber were retouchings added by the CIA or some other conspiracy. John Ball, who has no expertise in interpreting aerial photographs, suggests either that hypothesis or, alternatively, that the dark spots were flowerpots sitting on each gas chamber.

The objects shown on the roof in the ground photo, say some deniers, are ordinary boxes of construction material.

Deniers also claim that there is no evidence of four holes in the roof of each gas chamber. Because the chambers were dynamited in an attempt to hide evidence of mass murder from the approaching Soviet army, the roofs have collapsed and it is difficult to tell in the rubble what is a hole and what is not. Later this year, an essay on this website will address this question in detail.

Finally, Holocaust-deniers intentionally confuse the solid support columns for the gas chamber roof with the wire-mesh columns. As obvious evidence of their crimes, the latter would have been removed by the Nazis from the gas chambers before they were blown up. Ludicrously, deniers show photos of the solid columns as proof that the wire-mesh columns never existed.

Such feeble attempts to rewrite history do not stand.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/

And:
Auschwitz, or Auschwitz-Birkenau, is the best-known of all the Nazi death camps, and has come to symbolize the Holocaust itself.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/

Do you understand?

ps
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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:22 am)

1. It is evident that the gas chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau (Krema II + II) 210m ² and 2.4 m in height?

2. It is obvious that have been gassed in the gas chamber about 1,500 Jews at once?

3. It is obvious that there has been in the gas chamber four wire mesh columns?

4. Is it obvious that four holes in the gas chamber ceiling were?

5. It is obvious that the interior of this wire mesh columns filled with a 1-1.5 kg Zyklon B containers on a string could be lowered to the ground after the Jews were marched in and the door was closed?

6. it is obvious that after e.g. 1 minute, the Jews were dead?

7. Is it obvious that the Holocaust occurred?

8. It is scientifically recognized and so obvious that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 300 ppm within 10 minutes and at a concentration of 3000 ppm is fatal within 1 minute already? (Wikipedia)

9. It is right and so obvious that a cyanide vaporization of 1000 J / g have?

10. it is obvious that all these points 1. to 7. by all or many witnesses more or less identical and have been confirmed in many processes, judgments, and books can be read in 60 years?

If all 10 questions with "yes" can be answered, should the gas chamber temperature about 1200 ° C and possible cremation have amounted to. That is obvious.

Do never deny it!

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:45 am)

From http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/ follow the dimensions of a cyclone container, which could be lowered on a string. From http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B follow the cyclone granule properties, especially the bulk density. From http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanwasserstoff follows that 3000 ppm is fatal within a minute.

When the tank is lowered through the roof into the gas chamber, is the initial concentration of 0 ppm, and thus there is averaged over time after 1 minute of 3000 ppm, must be after 1 minute of a final concentration of 6000 ppm was present.

When a free radical gas chamber volume of 400 m³ of air weighs about 400 kg. Hydrocyanic acid and air are about the same density. Therefore must be after 1 minutes 0.6% (that is then 6000 ppm) of the air weight of hydrogen cyanide gas. These are then just 2.4 kg or 2400 g of hydrogen cyanide.

To vaporize a heat of 1000 J / g * 2400 g = 2.4 million J was needed which had to spill into 60 seconds into the container. The heat for evaporation is therefore 2400000 J / 60 s = 40000 J / s = 40000 W.

The heat can reach only by pellets of Zyklon wetted tank surface to the cyclone. From the bulk density and the quantity and the known container cyclone dimensions follows a wetted surface area of about 0.72 m².

Thus the area-specific heat power is 40 000 W / m² / 0.72m² = 55 000 W / m².

On the outside of a building is expected with a heat transfer coefficient of about 20 W / m² K.

If one also based on the same heat transfer coefficient for the container wall on the outside, is the specific heat transfer of 55 000 W / m² a temperature difference of 55 000 W / m² / (20 W / m² K) = 2750 ° K required. The gas chamber temperature must therefore be about 2750 ° C.

This simplistic observation and analysis that much neglected, but it shows already that you have to expect very high magnitude of gas chamber temperatures. A closer look at where convection, radiation, heat conduction, thermal inertia, air density in the gas chamber is taken into account, etc., provides in this case then 1200 ° C gas temperature chamber.

This means you should not deny the Holocaust. Because the high temperature gas chamber, it certainly allowed to unleash poison gas so quickly that the Jews could be poisoned by the gas chamber. Everything is just a question of the gas chamber temperature.

Thats the best way do explain the holocaust to everyone. Even to old holocaust deniers.

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:42 am)

dantesnake wrote:No, detective Sherlock, that's my friend. He said that he would find his answers on other place than mine (which is obviously codoh, among others),
but I did look trough rodoh and i really do find calculations dmitry did interesting, altough i don't understand shit :D

nonetheless, even if 3.5kg/body is true, that's far from absolute proof that holocaust happened.

but I do seek the truth, and am not automatically dismissing findings of the other team,
as you can see from asking my revisionist fellows if they can explain dmitry's calculations.


If you can read German, you will find a better calculation:
posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=42153

My own calculation gives 0,36 kg/body and not 3,5 kg/body as Dimitry calculated. I think, for normal oven we need 35 kg/body. But not for jewish body! It was impossible, normal humans (not jewish) gassing in hot gas chambers! They would not go in a 1200°C hot chamber. Also not in a 300°C hot chamber (the minimum temperature for gas chambers). Only and only for jewish people is it possible! Try it!

And consumtion of Zyklon B for 4 Mio Jews is not more then about 1500 kg. The Lagerarzt Fischer says, that the time for killing was between 2-3 minutes (Jagschitz). That is possible with a temperature of gas chamber of 1200°C and 0,5 kg Zyklon B for 1500 jews. Thats science!

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:23 pm)

No, detective Sherlock, that's my friend. He said that he would find his answers on other place than mine (which is obviously codoh, among others),
but I did look trough rodoh and i really do find calculations dmitry did interesting, altough i don't understand shit


there is not much to understand. After finding out that vast majority of technical specifications of modern animal incinerators can't approach the alleged efficiency of the Auschwitz crematorium, he began to cherry pick documents off the web, mostly in Russian which he knew no one else could read, the few that he did pick in English were easy to pick apart as being pulled out of context. Then he was confronted with some data on the actual animal incineration ovens of the period. Where upon he threw all his toys out of the cot and demanded that the person who had bested him be banned.

All SOP for a Hoaxer. Hardly worth repeating.

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby dantesnake » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:51 am)

Hahahahah, epic hoaxer is epic.
Well fine, I'm glad that's over.

I still lack good info on cremation/incineration rates.

Is Mattogno a good read on that? (Carlo Mattogno - The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau)

ps
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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:09 pm)

A answer to Dimitry´s not answer, in German:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5996

ps
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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:24 pm)

Another answer to denier Dimitry, German:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5996&p=42262#p42262

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby ps » 1 decade 7 months ago (Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:27 am)

A new answer to our Holocaust denier Dimitry, in German:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5996&p=42266#p42266

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Re: So, crematories.

Postby nathan » 1 decade 7 months ago (Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:40 am)

Where are these Topf "instructions"? Have they ever surfaced?


The Topf quotation is sourced by Lipstadt to Zimmerman and by Zimmerman to page 136 of Pressacs Technique and Operation, which can be found online. This Topf letter is dated well before an industrialised murder program at Auschwitz was said to have been conceivedm, so we may presume that the main concern was to economise fuel in the normal cremation of one body at a time. Lipstadt and Zimmerman truncate the sentence in Pressac which says that ashes should be collected in a container:

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a further 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in the container and set aside to cool.
In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other into the chambers.



Lipstadt/Pelt tell us that the 25 minutes-per-body figure is Topf’s own calculation. In fact it seems to be Zimmerman’s calculation based upon data from Gusen:

On November 7, 1941 these two muffles [at Gusen] incinerated 94 bodies in a period of 19 hours and 45 minutes, or 47 per muffle. This means that each oven could incinerate a body in 25.2 minutes. This was probably achieved by adding a new body to the oven before the prior body had been totally incinerated, a method which appears to have been envisaged by the Topf instructions discussed earlier.


(Zimmermann: Body Disposal at Auschwitz:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -disposal/ -


Mattogno has replied to this, with the usual volley of insults and with an enormous cloud of numerical detail. This perhaps might be clarified by anyone who happens to have infinite leisure and patience.

(Supplementary Reply to John Zimmermann:
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/CM/Risposta-new-eng.html


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